Interviews

JA
INTERVIEW WITH LEE SHELDON

Conducted with Bob Freese
November
5, 2002

Lee, a number of years
ago, I bought Ripley’s Believe it or Not!: The Riddle
of Master Lu. I was a Compuserve subscriber at the time
and it was there that I asked for hints. To my amazement there was
this person at “the other end” who was “always there”
helping players day after day. Not only did I love the game (and
still do), but whenever I got hung up, that person was there. It took
a while before I realized that the person helping players with the
game was a gentleman by the name of Lee Sheldon! Lee, I was blown
away – to think that the writer and co-designer was actually
out there helping us fledgling adventurers was almost beyond belief.
I will never forget the experience as long as I live! I’ve read
that you’re one of the nicest, most approachable people in the
business, and this proves it. Awesome, Lee! Where did you get the
inspiration to hang with us rookies and be the help that you were?

Thanks for
those kind words! I was a player before I was a designer, and the
exchanging of hints was something we all did on the Gamers Forum.
I saw no reason to stop simply because I started making the games.

Cool! Okay, the early
days – I’ve read a little bit about your education, background
and Hollywood experience. Could you please expand on those years including
the shows you wrote for – I’m sure our readers will find
your story fascinating.

Heh,
they won’t find it very fascinating if I make it as long as
it could be! The short version is that I began making my living in
Hollywood in 1974. I sold a couple spec film scripts that were never
produced, wrote a couple episodes of a Hanna-Barbera cartoon called
Clue Club that was meant to follow in the dog tracks of Scooby
Doo, but only lasted one season, then broke into primetime writing
for Charlie’s Angels. Out of the 200+ scripts I wrote,
those which still have resonance for me include scripts for Charlie’s
Angels, Nero Wolfe, Cagney & Lacey, Quincy,
Simon & Simon, Blacke’s Magic, Tucker’s
Witch, Snoops, Star Trek:Next Generation, Father
Murphy, and Eight Is Enough.

I mainly wrote
mysteries. Even the Eight Is Enough episode was a mystery
called The Maltese Airline Bag. One non-mystery was a PBS
series I did for, about and featuring children called The Perkins
Family. It was 13 episode soap opera for kids. I wrote the storyline
based on kids’ input on what storylines they wanted to see,
then the young actors (kids played adult characters too) improvised
all their dialogue. John Binkley was the man responsible for the unique
concept.

I probably learned
the most about writing (particularly characters) when I was the Head
Writer on the daytime soap Edge of Night for its last two
years.

Gotta ask – did you
get to meet any of the stars?

I met most of the
stars that I worked with. Some of the nicest included Harry Morgan,
Tim Matheson, Rock Hudson, Tim Reid, Patrick Stewart, Cheryl Ladd,
Jackie Smith and Jonathan Frakes. Jonathan and I worked on two shows
together.

How did you go about getting
these writing opportunities?

Hmmm… Well,
when I was working as a clerk at Samuel French (play publishers) in
Hollywood, I used to pester actors when they came in to buy copies
of plays. I think I scared Terri Garr, trying to get her to read a
screenplay. As the way these things sometime happen, one person finally
read a script, passed it on to someone else, and it continued to survive
until somebody with money read it and hired me.

Was an agent necessary?

Not in the very
beginning (impossible to get one), but after interest was generated
in my first script, an agent was essential and much easier to find.

Also, I’ve always
wondered just how much “production interface” the writer
has with the director or producer. Were you usually on the set, helping
to contribute to the story “on the fly”?

It depends on the
situation. I was very lucky on Charlie’s Angels. The
show’s producers, Ron Austin & Jim Buchanan, took me under
their wings and mentored me. Not only was I allowed on the set (almost
unheard of as a freelance writer), but I appeared in one
episode I wrote called Haunted Angels. I’m the picture
the angels hold of a dead young man who may have come back from the
grave.

Heh heh! Do you have any
“favorite moments”, “uppers or downers” during
your “Hollywood years” you’d like to relate to us?

Favorite moments?
Singing oldies with Cheryl Ladd in a garage on location at Marion
Davies’ house when we were shooting Rosemary for Remembrance.
Writing a speech for Harry Morgan soon after his wife had died about
his character’s dead wife near the end of a Blacke’s
Magic episode. It was a very lyrical passage, almost poetry.
Some actors might have shied away from the sentimentality, but Harry
gave it all he had, and thanked me for it afterwards. Experimenting
with storytelling techniques on Edge of Night, especially
in our 1984 story about brainwashing via cable TV. The producers
Nick Nicholson and John Valente really let me try some very unusual
things! Just one example: Willie Aames played the owner of a disco
with a huge video screen. He hired some men to beat up one of our
heroes. I showed him in the disco in front of the screen and the actual
fight on the screen as it happened instead of intercutting the two
scenes. The effect was startling. I also began a new storyline on
the last show of Edge of Night where a street disappears.
People complained that I never would have been able to explain how
it happened. A year later I repeated the mystery in a different story
for Blacke’s Magic to provide the answer.

Okay, how did a nice guy
like you get…………nah, strike that. How the
heck did you get into this zany gaming business? Were you a gamer
before you made the transition?

I had played computer
games since 1981. I found myself watching TV only if I was up for
a particular show. I’d watch it and study it. But I rarely watched
for entertainment any longer. I played games for entertainment. It
was a natural transition for me.

What was your first gaming
project?

The first one to
actually get published was It’s a Dog’s Life
aka Digby the Dog. I wasn’t the first writer/designer
on this kid’s storybook/game, but Shelley Duvall was contractually
guaranteed to have sole writing credit. I never met her nor talked
with her. But she was a character, and Digby was her dog.

How did you come to join
the Sanctuary Woods team in the writing and designing of Master
Lu? Who approached whom?

Christmas 1993
saw the release of some “major” CD-ROM games. We discussed
them in the Gamers Forum. I was almost alone in criticizing the trivial
storylines and cardboard characters. Publicly I got yelled at, but
I received several private emails asking me if I wanted to make games:
Bob Bates at Legend, Ron Gilbert at Humongous… but Sanctuary
Woods’ Matt Gruson was the only person who offered me an inhouse
position. So I took it and moved to Victoria, BC in spring of 1994.

For what its worth, Master
Lu is one of my favorites. I think the game was on the cutting
edge at the time and I think the “storytelling” aspect
of the game was the lure for me. How did you get interested in the
“Robert Ripley” genre?

Well, thank you!
Most of my projects have been inherited from someone else, and Master
Lu was no exception. I’d been working on another children’s
title, Once Upon a Forest (based on the 20th-Century Fox
animated motion picture and my first adventure game), when
the lead designer told our producer, François Robillard, that
he wasn’t up to the project, and wanted to quit. I took his
massive stack of research notes, and wrote a new design with François,
using the original story outline as our springboard. François
was responsible for many of the best puzzles (including the now infamous
Baron’s Lab). I handled story, additional gameplay, dialogue,
overall game structure etc. I also directed voice actors, the actors
we used to model our walkers, and the short video clips.

How did you get together
with Southpeak Interactive? Were you simply welcomed aboard, or were
you hired for a specific project? I think I read that you joined Southpeak
when Temujin was still in progress. True?

Southpeak was recruiting
at GDC in 1996. I joined them in North Carolina after all the 360
degree video for Temujin had been shot. I threw out an unworkable
design, rewrote the backstory, then set about the enormous challenge
of incorporating gameplay into existing video. Well, at least the
game got to a finished enough state where it could be released! All
in all a very difficult experience.

I’ve played Temujin
five times, I think. Personally, I think it was very underrated by
most reviewers. I truly enjoyed it, especially the puzzle solving
– triggering FMVs. Most of your games have been FMV, haven’t
they? Coincidence, or do you favor FMVs?

I did at the time.
And as awkward as it was in some ways, Southpeak’s engine was
as close as the technology got to doing it right. I still believe
that human beings, not animated figures, are far more adept at capturing
a player’s emotions. But the cost and effort to do it right
are both very high, and there is such a prejudice against FMV (and
rightfully given what we’ve seen!), that I don’t see anybody
rushing to invest in it in a big way anytime soon.

Dark
Side of the Moon – a corrupt mining company in
outer space, an heir seeking his mineral claims, and a strikingly
beautiful black jack dealer (Wow!), who just might not be what she
seems. Adventure gaming needs good storytelling and this game had
it. Did you present the concept to Southpeak, or did they ask you
to develop a story woven with these elements?

Southpeak had a
brief “game description” they wanted to try. I think all
that remained when Mark Barrett and I were done with it was the setting.
I did the first story outline and we hired Mark to write a first draft
design document that was mainly a screenplay. The really nice last
speech of Jake’s uncle is almost entirely Mark’s work.
He’s a very good writer, and one of the few who understands
games. I wrote the subsequent drafts, added puzzles and gameplay,
and produced the video shoot. I was very pleased with the game overall,
and thought the video was professionally acted and directed. The lead
actor took some heat from critics and fans for being such a dweeb.
I take my share of responsibility for that. I cast him, and thought
his voice had a nice “Christian Slater” quality. I wanted
him to be an ordinary guy, but he came across way too weak, despite
what was a good performance. The actor gave us what we wanted.

I had the opportunity to
review this game and was very impressed by the “movie-like”,
crystal clear cinematics. It set the standard for its day. How did
you guys do this?

Yikes! A technical
question! It was very complicated, expensive and time-consuming, since
we had to shoot all angles of the 360% image then stitch them all
together. Much green screen work, and few physical sets (the shuttle
craft was constructed). I think the technique was sound, but computers
were still not powerful to handle all that video as smoothly as we
might have liked.

Dark Side of the Moon,
as originally released, offered multiple CDs. Many reviewers (including
myself) reported on the disc swapping requirements (lots, depending
on the player’s path through the non-linear story). Soon thereafter,
Southpeak released a DVD version of DSOM. Was this decision
made solely upon reviewers’ and players’ comments?

Yes, and if you
know where I can get my hands on a DVD copy, let me know! I don’t
have one! Here is an example where my desire to do a non-linear story
(which I think is essential to fit the story to an open game environment
where players can choose where they want to go next) fought against
the medium. If I’d done a straightforward linear story like
most adventure games, the disk swapping would not have been an issue.
It was a game that needed to be released on DVD.

Lee, most of our readers
are adventure junkies. I give up. Actually I’m mad as hell.
What the heck is going on in the American PC game market? Are we “dumbing
down”? I woefully wade through the pages of gamer mags and see
blood, guts, swords, guns, ad nauseum. I guess these games sell. Publishers
are apparently convinced that adventure games won’t sell here.
We at JA have thousands of adventure-starved readers. Canada and Europe
has seen the lack of foresight of the publishers here and are lining
the shelves (albeit lightly) with adventure game titles. However,
two or three games produced out of the USA in the past two years have
been among the best I’ve ever played. What’s the problem?
I assume that adventure games are expensive to produce, and maybe
the payoff just isn’t there now. RPGs went through the same
drought a few years ago. Do you think there will be a resurgence of
interest in intelligent adventure game production soon or not? Is
story telling a lost art?

I’m a very
bad prophet. I have no idea whether there will be a resurgence of
interest, especially since RPGs seem to have become the storytelling
genre of choice these days. But story is certainly not lost. It’s
just neglected. We still put up with woefully bad stories in games
because “they are only games.” When the developers hear
the voices of players wanting better storytelling, rather than just
storytelling, then we may see brilliant stories in many genres. As
for adventure games, I think a MMP adventure game set in an interesting
world would be a big hit, if people thought about the needs of multiplayer
puzzles, and got away from rehashing solo puzzles. There are no secrets
in MMPs. A new paradigm is needed.

Thanks for your insight,
Lee. Changing the subject a bit, what have you been doing since leaving
Southpeak?

After Southpeak
I worked on an MMP called The Gryphon Tapestry that was a
true MMP adventure game as well as an RPG (and a storybook!). Unfortunately
the company ran out of money as we entered beta. Since then I’ve
worked on several MMPs including an MMP version of Myst at
Cyan, and a Disney MMP. I give a tutorial at GDC every year on storytelling
and game design, and am lecturing at Full Sail. I’m currently
writing a mystery novel set in the Florida Keys, and waiting to hear
what game project I’ll be working on next. There are a couple
of interesting possibilities, but no one has made me an offer yet.

I
understand you host a website entitled www.anti-linearlogic.com.
I give up – I’m not a rocket scientist. What the heck
is “anti-linearlogic”?

I strongly believe
that storytelling in games should be non-linear to match how people
play. There is a perfectly valid logic and techniques that can be
applied to achieve this. If you want to learn more, come to one of
my talks!

Will do! Hey, I understand
you’ve recently published a book. Could you please tell us about
your inspiration for the book and what its about?

It’s a comic
mystery novel called Impossible Bliss (You can order it from
Barnes & Noble, Amazon, etc.!). I’m pleased to report that
it received some excellent reviews, and we have a couple European
publishers inquiring about international rights. It’s an impossible
crime set in Carmel, California, and involves the disappearance of
a golfer from a sand trap. My favorite mystery writer is John Dickson
Carr, and one of the reviewers did me the honor of comparing it favorably
to Carr’s work.

Excellent! So what’s
on your menu of anticipated projects, and what will it take to get
you back into the adventure gaming business? Want to come full circle?
One of our staff writers asked me to ask you if there’d be any
chance of you’re authoring a Cagney and Lacey or Master
Lu II PC adventure game. Sure sounds like a great idea to me!

Hehe. Well, I did
quite a bit of work on a sequel to Master Lu called Ripley’s
Believe it or Not!: The Siberian Cipher. The Ripley people own
the rights, but if there were enough interest… who knows? What
I’d really like to do is a MMP mystery adventure/RPG hybrid.
Maybe some day!

Lee, thank you so very
much for your time. Congratulations on your distinguished career and
very best wishes for the future!

Well thanks, Robert!
Happy adventuring!