| 17 OCT 2002 at 8:59pm |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | 1- Long. Long, long, long long long long long. If you could bundle the whole adventure over 500 cds and make it last twenty years to play, I'd still love it. Of course, it would need a very strong plotline to support this. So I'll dump the leangth onto the back-burner and pay more attention to what really matters.
2- Plotline. This needs to be the make-or-break point of the game. We've all done the same games over and over, we need something that's exciting and new. I love historic mystery games, rather like Broken Sword 1. Something involving history and archeology would be perfect.
But we need to play up the mystery aspect. I'm not much of an Agatha Crystie fan, but the more thrilling a mystery, the better.
And of course, the horror. I want a game that is so atmospheric, I could scream. I want chilling scenes, excitement, adrenhalin. I want something as good as Gabriel Knight 2.
3- Logical puzzles. I want them to make sense! It has to be realistic. Believe it or not, it does not make logical sense to rent someone else's bike by defacing their passport photo, wearing their hat, and making a false mustache out of cat hair, a la GK3. A low point in the game. We want puzzles that require you to think, but not like a crazy person.
4- Wonderful characters. Characters that are just like you and me. That are as well-built as you and me. That are believable, and react just like we would. Someone who's personality, drive, pathos, ideals and concepts are so believable that I could forget that they're not real. Someone who the adventure is like a cathartic experience.
Okay, got all that? Now, the unnecessary stuff.
5- The visuals. And the leangth. The graphics aren't too important, but if we can have good ones, I want great ones. Photo-realistic ones. The king that makes you think your PC has turned into a window.
6- Sound. This is increadably important in the representation of the atmosphere. When your character walks, you should hear walking sound. Not horse-sound, not man-going-click sound, but walking sound. And the music, the music is absoloutely paramount in the atmosphere. If at all possible, I'd like the LSO to do it.
7- Difficulty. Because of the logical types of puzzles, it shouldn't be too hard. At most, you should be stuck for a few days. But no more. You want to experience the game, not scream at it.
Erm.. and I think that sums it all up.
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 17 OCT 2002 at 9:16pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Atmosphere, Atmosphere and did i mention Atmosphere!
personally i prefer 2d p'n'c advs... i also prefer handdrawn gfx
i agree 100% with Wolfboy on #1 and #2 (and i AM a big Agatha Christie fan )... the puzzles should be difficult imo but not extremely illogical... some wackyness should be there though if the game is towards the comical genre (ie toonstruck)
what SHOULD NOT be in an adventure:
1. Time-dependant puzzles... be there on that exact second in order to find this item or else the game won't end
2. Arcade sequences... who thought of that anyway??? if i want arcade i'll load up mame
3. Pixel pefrection!... either don't walk one wrong pixel to the left or the right or you die or scan the entire monitor to find which pixel is the ring
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 17 OCT 2002 at 9:28pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The ideal adventure would be 3rd person perspective, point and click mouse controlled, FMV (TLJ graphics go good also) and would be on DVD with dolby surround sound.
It would have a JaneJensen-RagnarTornquist-BenoitSokal kind of story, it would be linear because there is only one fate, it would have replaybility feature only based to its greatness (I have finished GK2 3 times, and it was linear), it would be 25 to 30 hours long, and it would have Al Pacino as the bad guy (and liv tyler could also be a great asset) .
The plot should have to do with something paranormal, scary, mythological....or anything out of the ordinary anyway and it should have twists and turns and in the end u r supposed to say 'OH SHIIITTT, I never expected that.......what was I thinking all this time'. But since this sometimes is not so easy to do I could live without it also.
The puzzle's should be inventory based and not illogical, that just pisses people off and lead them to other kinds of games. It would also have the interface of TLJ that is the best interface in my opinion for an adventure game. The object that is litting when it can be used somewhere and the possibility to scroll through your inventory items make even illogical puzzles easy to solve.
It would also give some good feedback from the main character concerning objects in the game world. And last but not least you would play both a girl and a guy (GK style) so that it is sexually correct. I loved TLJ and Syberia but I think I could connect better with Gabriel's character since I am a guy (but not in the 3d part, I could never connect to Tim Curry's voice...iggghhh).
That's it people... the perfect adventure according to my taste.
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| 17 OCT 2002 at 9:54pm |
Freddie_PharkasSpace Cadet
Posts : 114
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Wonderful question. The ideal adventure......... hmmmm. Well, I suppose for me, nothing, and I mean nothing, in a game is more important than the plot. A great plot can make up for shortcomings in graphics or gameplay. So, in order of importance, here is what I would want if I designed a game:
1. Plot - To steal a line from Tom Houston, the story's the thing. Nothing is more important. For me, a great story is character driven, and a rich, developed protagonist is essential to the game. The more supporting characters that are developed the better. Even though its been done to death, I like saving the world, solving an age-old mystery, or something similar when I play an adventure game, so its got to be an epic plot line.
2. Atmosphere - More important than eye candy is the overall atmosphere of the game. Regardless of what it looks and sounds like, can you get lost in the game? You'd have to be able to in mine. Look at some of Sierra and Lucasarts classics and tell me that they don't have great atmosphere in wonderous VGA (GK1, KQ4, Full Throttle, Monkey Island).
3. Sound - See # 2. I can think of nothing better than good sound to help create atmosphere. Also, I like music in games. One of my big problems with Dreamcatcher is that so many of there games lack music to help keep you from banging your head on the desk as you get stumped on a puzzle. Of course, if you have music, please, please make sure it is not terrible or repetitive.
4. Interface - Very important. My preference is third person, pure mouse control. I never liked 3d adventure games, probably a product of my vintage, but hey, this is my ideal adventure right?
5. Puzzles/Problems- Obviously the bread and butter of the game. I like plenty of these, and I don't mind if they are illogical or difficult, I just like them to make sense within the plot of the game. Tough puzzles are encourged.
6. Graphics - probably the lease important element of my ideal adventure game. on't get me wrong, I love super graphics (i.e., Syberia, Schizm - or was it scmisisim or scizimim or skizisimim - sorry running gag - credit goes to Omnia for that one) but they should take a back seat to plot and interface. If you can put all this together, you have The Longest Journey, pretty much the best Adventure game to pass by these parts in some time.
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| 17 OCT 2002 at 10:05pm |
| Deleted User | I love a really good twist in the tale... I also love mind-numbingly hard but totally logical puzzles. My ideal adventure game, besides incorporating many of the excellent points already mentioned in this thread, would revolve around the major puzzle: Figuring out what's really going on. You cannot finish the game until you make an intuitive leap and realize that the context in which you thought the story belonged is totally wrong, and everything you've experienced so far has to be reexamined in a new light. The small, nagging inconsistencies you've discovered in the game world / plot (these would be your clues) suddenly make perfect sense, and once you've figured it out, it's so obvious! All of a sudden you know what to do to proceed.
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| 17 OCT 2002 at 10:39pm |
JonasKyratzesSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 280
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The ideal adventure does not exist, and will not exist, and that's a good thing, because I like all kinds of games. However, here are some elemtents that I like:
Originality
Very important. Don't make me play the same story for the 100th time, or at least present it in a new way.
Point & click
I love my mouse.
Story/Content
I want an interesting, deep story. Not another 'save the world' plot. Make it about something more interesting. If you have to make me save the world, let me do it in a new way.
Experimentation
I like experimental, unique games, which push the limits.
Emotional power
I want the game to have an emotional impact.
[i]
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 2:45pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Well guys. Thanks for your opinions.
I'll beguin my impressions thinking about what a good adventure game must avoid.
The greatests mystakes in adventure, for me:
1- Divide a game into levels or chapters- I's known by gamers, that one of the most desmotivanting thing is the previous knowledge of the finish. For me, this tool is the biggest mystake in a game.
The famous exemples are Phantasmagoria 1 and GK2.
2- MIDI files. It's unbeleiveble that studios still work with MIDI sound (incident soundtrack)
ex: Spycraft
3- Small screen area. I hate games that fills 50% or less of the screen area.
Ex: Connections, Spycraft
4- Low level of difficulty.
5- Ingenuous, absurd or bad-crafted plot. - despite this opinion maybe a bit subjective, is true that a bad story building, depress any game.
6- Low grafic quality. To me, the realism of the story, beguins necessarially by the grafics.
7- Artificial puzzels - In the past, the first adventure games, needed the famous artificial puzzles....because, this tool was necessary to avoid that one gamer finnished a game in a record time. well, several years later, the studios would learn to avoid these puzzles, and produce real contests.
Here, the famous exemple of artificiality is The seventh Guest.
8- Linearity. Despite, I'm think that linearity is not a mortal sin, the ideal, is avoid this way to conduct a plot.
9- Bad actin. FMV direction must be made with careful.
Actors are the story's "front line"
9- Mazes. I hate them, except in Traitor's gate, that the maze is perfectly integrated into story.
Maze is only a poor resorce to a gamer waste the time and it's veeeeeery boring.
Ex: Frankenstein and Necronomicon.
10- Non-sense difficulty progress into story - games that starts very hard and finnished in a easy way. Adventure games must start easy and the level would became harder progresivelly. At minimun, a game must mantain difficulty level regularity.
The bad exemple here is Black Dahlia.
 &&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 3:31pm |
| Deleted User | The story is the thing for me. It needs to be logical, entertaining and gripping. And it needs to have a beginning and an end. The beginning is important because it sets the tempo for the entire program. The end is equally important as it wraps everything together into a neat and tidy package. I hate to just fall off the edge of the world in the final moments of an otherwise great game. Very defeating and disappointing.
Harriet@JA
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 4:03pm |
bistroSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 240
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Forgive my ramblings, but I'll have to ditto Wolfboy's comments. All except "Characters that are just like you and me. That are as well-built as you and me.".....nah, I don't need balding people with small beer bellies...I'm talking about other people, of course....*ahem*
The plot's the thing....and good graphics while you are working through it. If I have a real and interesting goal to reach, the game could have 50 CDs and I would love it. But only on an additional condition...it better have graphics like Syberia or Myst III in order to "fill-in" and keep my interest during the lulls in the game plot. (OK, ok...so I get bored easily...). Eyecandy can be a great equalizer...
Amen to the mazes comment....that's a developer cop-out IMHO. Have only seen one or two that the maze actually had something to do with the game progression (fit with the scenario well). Others were just idiotic distractions with absolutely no purpose whatsoever..."Hey Joe! Let's throw a garden maze in this spot since we can't think of anything else! Make it a hard one!".
Prefer point and click with an easy iinventory interface. Hate those games where you have to reinterpret the entire keyboard....takes too long for this dolt to learn all the keys...
I want to feel like I am "there" and when finished with the game, I want to walk away feeling like I made some new "friends" and found some new places that I don't mind revisiting again and again. if that happens, the game's a keeper...if not, trashbin.
In the Tex Murphy and Myst series (and now Syberia) I was "There". In Black Dahlia and the like, I was "at the PC trying to slug through this game".
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 6:29pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Now, my impressions about that could be a great game.
First......if could be possible, I would play a 1000 cd's lenght game! hehe
Seriously now - A perfect game for me, could rather mantain the gamer interess for years. Maybe , my wish becames only an impossible dream......but.....
Some details must be discussing, such : When you open a door, in many games afetr you crossed it, than this door now is closed again. This detail escape from many studios. Well, if a open a door, so this door only bacame closed if I do it after opened it....except automatic doors.
Actors with the same costumes....when the game run in several days.....Please studios - Dress your actors with more than one clothe! And they haven't time to take a shower....hehe
I love heavy and loaded inventories......many itens to collect in the game and post interactivity. Maybe interativity between these collected itens. Noted in Return To Zork. Although this resorce let the game extremelly hard.
Simple and fast interface.....easy acess to any part of the game via-mapview.
Minimun swap-disks. The game must construted to avoid the excess of disks changes.
Infinite slots to pre saved games.
Full screen - Yes...no less than 100%
Obviously, superb plot, grafics, sounds, no repetitive music themes and animations.
The ideal game must be extremely immersive, tense, fun, and force the gamer into a "chemical dependence" yeah!!!!
This ideal game I would like to play for eras, maybe for a lifetime!
&&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 9:06pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi all,
My personal preference is for a shorter game. I prefer a game about the length of Syberia. This does depend on the game. I'd play a longer game if it appeals to me.
Ease of the game - I prefer an easy game, but, if the puzzles are too hard for me, I will use a walkthrough. I'm different from many adventure gamers (though some gracious person agreed with me on another thread), I play for the immersive world experience. I think the function of puzzles is to immersive you in the game, give you something to do in the game, and slow you down. If there are puzzles, I prefer them to make some sort of sense within the game. I like an easy interface, with not too much to remember, I'm a lazy gamer. A mouse interface is OK. I'd probably like a gamepad, that seems pretty easy, but even if you could play most adventure games with a gamepad, you'd have to program the gamepad for your game. Keyboard movement is OK, but I have trouble rembering the keys sometimes, and I like to play a game one handed. If I could affect movement in the game by simply waving my hand, I'd probably go for that, but we have to work with current technology.
Story - again, I think "it depends". With an immersive "you are there" first person scenic game, a big story isn't as important to me. If the game is story driven, obviously I'd like the story to somehow hold me in some way. If story is important, get real writers, who have read something other than just the stories in games. Sometimes I like a big story (you get to save the world), sometimes a little story works just fine.
Game visuals - how a game looks is very important to me, I would say it's much more important to me than to most adventure gamers. I'd like a game to not look exactly like so many of the games out there. Sometimes, when game creators come from other genres (Benoit Sokal came from graphic novels - comics), you can see the influences of the other genre, and that's nice. Benoit Sokal, with his drawings, is a good example of that. I'd also like to see some influence from contemporary art (you know the contemporary art in galleries and museums), both electronic and other media. That's pretty much not going to happen - I only know of one game that came from the contemporary art world - but it's nice for me to dream. The game should seem like it's done by one person, not a committee, visually, I want it all to fit together. I don't care how many developers worked on it, and how big the game is, I want it to look and play like one person did it.
Appropriate use of technology. If it's 3D and there are people in it, I hope the figure aren't too blocky. If it's a slide show game, those images had better be really good. If sound and a soundtrack is important, get good composers to do your music. I don't particularly care about the technology, whether the game takes up the entire screen, or whether it's 2D or 3D. I want the technology to be appropriate to the game you want to do. I want the game to be good to look at, and to play reasonably well two years down the road.
That special "something". Look, I think the story in Myst, a game I adore, can charitably be called "light" (others may disgree but not all that much happens). The game is really slow too, and there's not a heck of a lot of interaction in the game. However, for me, Myst has that special something. Syberia, a different game, also has it, as does Grim Fandango (for different reasons), Obsidian, and (perhaps), Morpheus, though I'm not done yet. There are other games I liked a lot, The Longest Journey, Myst Exile, Amerzone, other games, but they didn't do "it" for me. I do tend to like moody, evocative games, but I'm flexible. I'm looking for what I call "an immersive world experience", a virtual reality. Since I can't go on the Holodeck in Star Trek, adventure games are the next best thing.
All for now.
Regards, mszv
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 10:45pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | 1. Interaction and Gameworld. I want to see a living, breathing gameworld that feels alive. I want the freedom to choose how I act in the gameworld, and I want the gameworld to respond to my actions. I want my choices to cause unique events to happen (even if it's just a short message displayed on the screen), rather than hearing a default 'doesn't work' message for the thousandth time.
1. Puzzles. This is a joint '1' for me. I want fair puzzles, where I can work out the solution without having to embark on a pyschic exploration of how the developers' minds work. I want a variety of puzzles - I don't want to have to USE OBJECT with other OBJECT through the entire game, or spend the entire game fiddling with machine after machine. I want taxing puzzles that will stump and then truly satisfy me when I reach their solution. I want puzzles that integrate with the plot and complement the story. I want imaginative puzzles, that are just plain fun!
2. Story. Any involving, original, well-written plot will do for me.
3. Non-linearity. I'd like the game to encourage me to 'play, and see what happens', rather than 'play to win', with a number of equally valid endings available. I want my experience of the game to be different from the experience of the person next to me. I want to see events in the gameworld that they didn't see, and vice versa, because of the different ways we played the game.
4. Interface. I want something that's convenient to use, and which gives me the freedom to interact with the gameworld in a variety of ways. I don't care if it takes up screen space, though a pop-up interface would probably be better.
5. Graphics. They must fit the mood of the game, and they must be consistent. When I look at the characters, I want to believe that they are a part of the gameworld (no 'frozen' FMV actors superimposed jarringly on computer-drawn backgrounds).
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 11:10am |
druidIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | For me, adventure games are worth the experience when they tend to make a meaning out of it. This means a real ending, not like syberia or lord of the rings. Also the quality of documentation and relevance of ppl, items and things in context is very important.
I think that designers should concentrate like they do(most of them) in tales and myths because they're a neverending resource of inspiration, phantasy, develop imagination and depth of experience.
It's true that graphics is important nowadays but it should get rid of 3d movement, because I think that the greates appeal in adventures has much to do with controling your character from an exterior perspective(which doesn't exclude the posibility of identifying with the character, in fact adds more to it)
Story should be non-linear, at least at macro-level. Puzzles should be based on inventory but in imagination of the gamer also(although it shoul suppose a normal person imagination, not some's weird and psychotic, perverted mind )
And as a touch to it, surrealism to the story and post modern, stylized graphics(a combination of very old, archaic and very new- in an inspired way). I really like a small quantity of useless items and stuff in a game, those that don't really do something in the game, but they divert your attention in such a way that you're either amused and a little pissed-off or you use it as a "respiro" a liitle break from a mind blowing puzzle or situation.
Dialogue could be rather mysterious and logical(with a little keywords)and should live the educational part to written items in the game. I mean it must have something to do with the imediate action, while books, notes and libraries could take care of intelectual aspect.
Hope I haven't bother anyone
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 3:20pm |
itsgood2slideIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 35
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | AdventureDevelopers.com are currently running a series of articles on the 21 rules for Adventure Game design. http://www.adventuredevelopers.com/articles.php
Of course, Jordan Mechner has already made the ideal adventure....
Ths sgntr hs n vwls.&&N Vwls? Hw ds t spll?&&Trrbl.
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 10:10pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Very good tips - I read the ones you had so far with great interest. I think some of the games I've liked would have been even better if they would have followed the tips you have so far.
Regards, mszv
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| 21 OCT 2002 at 9:40pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jamarchand (18 OCT 2002 2:44pm)
1- Divide a game into levels or chapters- I's known by gamers, that one of the most desmotivanting thing is the previous knowledge of the finish. For me, this tool is the biggest mystake in a game.
The famous exemples are Phantasmagoria 1 and GK2.
Interesting of you to mention this because many of the games widely regarded as best adventures are divided into chapters. For instance all GK games or TLJ. But I agree that this may be a problem for the player because sometimes it's not obvious at all what needs to be done to finish the chapter. It was very nice in GK2 and GK3 (maybe GK1 too? I don't remember) that you could easily see which places you needed to take some action in to finish the chapter.
4- Low level of difficulty.
I'm sure this is difficult because some people can consider a puzzle easy and others may consider the same puzzle tough. On the whole I prefer "too easy" to "too tough" but "just right" is best
7- Artificial puzzels [...]
Here, the famous exemple of artificiality is The seventh Guest.
To me, The 7th Guest was a puzzle game, not adventure. The puzzles didn't really have anything to do with the story.
8- Linearity. Despite, I'm think that linearity is not a mortal sin, the ideal, is avoid this way to conduct a plot.
Again, a tough one. I've never heard people complain that books or movies are linear (though there were attempts at non-linear books and movies). IMO non-linear plots are more suitable for more "open-ended" games such as RPGs. I don't see how a game with lots of audio or even FMV can be very non-linear.
Other than that, I quite agree with what you said.
I forgot my sig.
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| 22 OCT 2002 at 2:23am |
LeisSuitIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | My two most-often-played, most-often-enjoyed games are "Shivers" and "Leisure Suit Larry 7"...both games contain a LOT of what I look for in a fun adventure game.
Both are fairly nonlinear, in that you can freely explore the gameworld without feeling like you're being led by the hand. Nothing bugs me like being in an adventure game setting, in an area with a zillion doors, and only two can be opened.
Both also have very distinctive looks. I bought two games once, "racula Resurrection" and "Necronomicon", both were Dreamcatcher games. Both had similar graphics, sounds, interfaces, even puzzles. Can't stand games made from a cookie-cutter mold.
Lastly, I like a game-world that's populated and interactive. Sure, "Shivers" was a deserted museum at night, but there were three ghosts, a handful of video sequences to observe, and LOTS of ambient voice and sound effects in that haunted museum. And "Larry 7" had tons of voicework and animation. I never understood the appeal of big, empty worlds filled with "pull-the-lever" and "turn-the-dial" puzzles. *cough* Myst *cough*
(sigh)...these days, there just aren't that many good adventure games to be found...I find myself, more and more, playing action-adventure hybrids, like "Alone in the Dark 4" and "Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force", just to get into a big gameworld. And RPG's of course, like "Arcanum" and "Neverwinter Nights". But I miss some of the classics.
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