| 25 AUG 2004 at 11:51pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jujigatame (25 AUG 2004 11:43pm)
No, you just don't get my kudos because you all ignored the facts put forth in my post and continued on with your pseudo-fact-based diatribes.
And exactly what were those facts again, please?
If you would be so kind, would you dumb it down a little for this poster, because I was under the apparently wrong-headed assumption I was responding to your Topic Header. :-X
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 26 AUG 2004 at 3:40am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | What are you talking about? This isn't my thread, the thread topic is not of my design. And why would I dumb it down for you? I don't think you're not getting what I'm saying, I just think you're ignoring it, either intentionally or unintentionally, and I was praising the one person who acknowledged what I was saying and responded to it.
The facts I'm referring to, for the third time, are that the game magazine being slammed here gave very good ratings to a number of recent adventure games, such as Syberia, Broken Sword 3, Missing: Since January, and Dark Fall. My point was, as redhat put it, that if the games are good enough, they will get good marks. Not a single person except redhat recognized this, everyone just kept going on with the same generic stuff about how kids these days are idiots and can't appreciate games with out violence and how magazines have become worthless and only cover what sells the best and blah blah blah.
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| 26 AUG 2004 at 4:54am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Posted by: jujigatame:What are you talking about? This isn't my thread, the thread topic is not of my design.
Oops! jujigatame, you're right. This isn't your Topic. I apologize.
Posted by: jujigatame:And why would I dumb it down for you?
Because maybe you're a nice guy that wants to be clear about what you post; to help others understand?
Posted by: jujigatame:I don't think you're not getting what I'm saying, I just think you're ignoring it, either intentionally or unintentionally, and I was praising the one person who acknowledged what I was saying and responded to it?
The facts I'm referring to, for the third time, are that the game magazine being slammed here gave very good ratings to a number of recent adventure games, such as Syberia, Broken Sword 3, Missing: Since January, and Dark Fall. My point was, as redhat put it, that if the games are good enough, they will get good marks. Not a single person except redhat recognized this, everyone just kept going on with the same generic stuff about how kids these days are idiots and can't appreciate games with out violence and how magazines have become worthless and only cover what sells the best and blah blah blah.
Ah! Now I think I understand your position.
Adventure Games - the ones that you do like and feel are the best (i.e., "good ratings", "good enough" - deserve better press coverage. In other words, I believe you are saying they deserve their good ratings.
But the Adventure Games you don't like and think are merely "generic" then don't deserve coverage whatsoever - or merely coverage of the worst sort.
So, if any attention is given these "generic" Adventure Games that are supposed to be so awful; tagged with ugly (depending) descriptors such as "Myst-like", "pre-rendered", "point 'n' click", etc., do not deserve press coverage, coverage of the worst sort, or no mention whatsoever.
So: in my PC gaming magazine review-reading experience, press coverage based entirely upon the subjective likes and dislikes of the person who is playing and/or reviewing a particular game of any genre is generally considered to be incomplete and biased.
Being optimistic, I would read on for other reviews for that particular game - if I can find them. But lately, PC gaming magazines would the last place I would check.
Why? Because they rarely mention Adventure Games stinkers. Only the "high-markers" (READ: Big Budget) get mentions, glossies, flap-overs and coveted awards, but the less-than-"great" are relegated to the furthermost recesses of the magazines with the usual comment: it stinks.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 2:29am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | I think you largely have my position down, except I have no problem with "point and click" or "pre-rendered." "Myst-like" I do have a problem with, though.
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 5:32am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Posted by: jujigatame:I think you largely have my position down.
Yes, and I feel sad since now I understand what you are saying - which - in essence - is that a game only deserves mention in a gaming magazine if "they", "them", "those people over there" or "you" deem the game "good enough" even a mere mention.
It seems like you want only the reviews of the "Syberias". The "Longest Journeys". "The Latest and Greatest". Oh, please don't print or show me anything else. It will offend my elitist sensibilities.
The rest of the "little" Adventure Games - no matter how horrible - do not deserve nor warrant space in gaming magazines - according to what you have said.
I remember when reviews of questionably horrible things like The Scroll, Silverload, and to a lesser extent - Alien Virus - were reviewed - and it is odd that they were all published or developed by Vic Tokai, bless his heart - right alongside the "good enough" Adventure Games. I relished with glee those reviews of the "stinker" Adventure Games. I want to read about them all (well, except for maybe "Xtreme Deer Hunter".
Posted by: jujigatame:...except I have no problem with "point and click" or "pre-rendered." "Myst-like" I do have a problem with, though.
Why? I used the disclaimer word "depending" in my paragraph here (which should tell you that I have a problem with the descriptor "Myst-like" as well):
"So, if any attention is given these "generic" Adventure Games that are supposed to be so awful; tagged with ugly (depending) descriptors such as "Myst-like", "pre-rendered", "point 'n' click", etc., do not deserve press coverage, coverage of the worst sort, or no mention whatsoever."
Look, jujigatame. Your stance reeks as one of a reader only wanting to see outstanding Adventure Games reviewed that you deem qualified to be awarded copy space.
My stance is that I want to see more of any Adventure Game reviewed in magazines - not just the games that are "good enough".
Gaming magazines review most all of these types (or least more of these types of games): the so-called FPS'ers, action, RPG, action-adventure and RTS games - stinkers or no.
Most Adventure Games in gaming magazines are rarely given this type of coverage - good or bad. The Adventure Game genre is largely ignored by the press.
And that is exactly why gaming magazines are generally biased, worthless, and a waste of money to us - as Adventure Gamers.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to shell out U.S. $7.99 for a magazine that has no compleat content.
Oh, except for maybe "Syberia" or somesuch. One article. "Thanks a lot, Mr. PC Gamer, and also to you, Mr. PC Gaming World, but no thanks."
That's why I read Gameboomers, read usenet, and last (but certainly not least), Just Adventure+. These marvelous sites have the guts and spirit to mention at least more than one or two games monthly. They have the wherewithal to review them all.
Magazines don't.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 9:59am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Mark (25 AUG 2004 9:43am)
Usually, when a question (or statement) is put into quotation marks, it indicates the statement (or question) has been written "verbatim" (i.e, the actual words used in the original statement) and quoted as such. I never mentioned the statement "the latest thing". Implied, yes.
[smiley=raise_eyebrow.gif] There is no use your correcting me in that petulant manner. Quotation marks do not merely denote direct speech or a “verbatim” quotation (otherwise, why would you have put the word “verbatim” in quotes?), they can also indicate, for instance, the use of a skepticism, shifts of register, etc. Many writers use it to point out that they are above certain cliché phrases such as “the latest thing”, “think-tanks” and so on, and another important usage of quotation marks is to indicate or call attention to ironic or apologetic words.
Hence, I used the quotation marks quite correctly. (Read that with a Victorian accent and imagine me holding a martini. Don't be worried if I strike you as sexy. It happens.)
While you're at it, why don't you keep pointing out the occasional typos in my posts? Makes you feel like a big man, doesn't it? Well, keep going, I can't quite feel the pain yet. Oh my, I misspelled "fascinating", did I? How helpful of you to point that out. In fact, please let me anoint your head with scented oils. Membership in the Mark Fan Club? Oh, it's dream come true for me.
Still, kudos galore for providing us with such a dead-on definition of “verbatim” -- I certainly wouldn’t have known its meaning otherwise. [smiley=boggled.gif]
Originally Posted By Mark (25 AUG 2004 9:43am)
That's funny, Mr. Dietrich. I clicked and clicked on your underlined word "research", and it never showed me a darn thing. Fooled me. I thought it was an active link to some informative, topical, and lucid treatise about "killing" and its extensive history.
Oh, allow me to chuckle heartily at these remarks while cynically twirling my imaginary moustache. In case you don’t know, underlining is a form of emphasis and does not necessarily designate a hyperlink. In addition, even to one unaware of the source I was quoting, the humorous nature of my post should have been obvious.
As for your remarks on the state of contemporary game-reviewing, your observations have, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, all the vigor of inaccuracy and all the dowdiness of an old tweed jacket. Well, of course today’s gaming magazines feature less adventure games -- there’s simply less quality adventure games being made today. Duh! [smiley=shaking_head.gif]
But, see, it is dawn already. Draw back the curtains and open the windows wide. How cool the morning air is! Atlanta lies at our feet like a long riband of silver. A faint purple mist hangs over the Concourse, and the shadows of the glass towers are purple. It is too late to sleep. I shall go down to the garden and look at the roses, for I am tired of thought.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 1:37pm |
| Deleted User | Well in the only PC game magazine that I still buy (German Gamestar) they do fair reviews of adventure games. Tony Tough got to my own surprise very high ratings (over 80 percent) and they just (of course) bashed its graphics. While Syberia 2 got very high marks on graphics but only 60 something percent as a game for obvious reasons.
I did notice that there was or is a very high increase of war games and military games mostly with a real backround (WW2, Vietnam etc.) may it be FPS or strategic in some way and those are the games that really annoy me. I don't mind a good Shooter once in a while but military games especially when they are like Shellshock - Nam '67 do annoy me a lot and this is the only kind of game where I fear that the real violence that happened there is twee- and belittled also when they are branded as anti-war game or even movie like Platoon.
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 7:33pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Posted by: J. Eric Dietrich:In addition, even to one unaware of the source I was quoting, the humorous nature of my post should have been obvious.
Mr. Dietrich is referring to the FOX program The Simpsons, and the humorous nature of his post should be damn well understood - as if everyone has seen all 200+ episodes of The Simpsons and should be able to connect with every line of dialogue and subsequent humorous reference.
Sorry I'm missed your "humorous connotation" (and I do not agree that one doesn't require knowledge of Mr. Dietrich's source material in order to find his comments humorous), but my time is better spent with other endeavors besides memorizing quotes from television programs.
Posted by: J. Eric Dietrich:How cool the morning air is! Atlanta lies at our feet like a long riband of silver.
You misspelled "ribbon". Or did you happen to mean "ribald"?
Mark
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 27 AUG 2004 at 8:20pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | I just looked up "riband" in my dictionary and it said it was a ribbon.
(Middle English, 1350-1400)
No doubt it's also used in poetry from time to time, like other antique words are.
Besides, a ribald of silver doesn't make any sense.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 12:16am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Mark:
You are really blowing this way out of proportion and making me out to be saying things that I'm not. You have constructed a magical fantasy about what I posted saying something about how games I don't like shouldn't even be reviewed or get any mention. I never said that. I am all for magazines reviewing every adventure that is released commercially. All I was saying, in terms that couldn't have been simpler, is that the magazine in question, CGW, gives good ratings to good adventure games. That is the ENTIRETY of what I was saying.
Also, you nicely ignored my mention of Missing: Since January and Dark Fall, both of which were decidedly small budget games produced by indy developers.
Please stop with the straw men, it's just silly and annoying to respond to.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 4:59am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Posted by: Jenny100:I just looked up "riband" in my dictionary and it said it was a ribbon.
(Middle English, 1350-1400)
My word, I had no idea. I stand corrected then, and apologize to Mr. Dietrich for his proper - yet archaic - use of the word "riband".
Posted by: Jenny100:Besides, a ribald of silver doesn't make any sense.
Jenny, ever been to Atlanta? There are some silvery and glittery "ribald" areas to peruse. But you're right - it didn't make sense. I should have trusted Mr. Dietrich and his 600 year-old word.
Posted by: jujigatame:...I am all for magazines reviewing every adventure that is released commercially.
OK, if that's what you meant to say from your first post. I am also very glad to hear you say this, because I understood differently.
Posted by: jujigatame:...Also, you nicely ignored my mention of Missing: Since January and Dark Fall, both of which were decidedly small budget games produced by indy developers.
That's the best way to ignore someone - nicely. Haved played Dark Fall I loved it, but I have not played Missing: Since January yet. I was under the impression that these games - through virtue of their excellence - were widely advertised, so felt no comment made of their promotional neglect was necessary.
Posted by: jujigatame:...Please stop with the straw men, it's just silly and annoying to respond to.
Well, then, jujigatame, I suggest you don't respond. You are under absolutely no obligation to respond to my viewpoints, how silly or annoying they may be.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 5:23am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (28 AUG 2004 4:59am)
Posted by: Jenny100:
My word, I had no idea. I stand corrected then, and apologize to Mr. Dietrich for his proper - yet archaic - use of the word "riband".
Amazing isn't it. I didn't think it was really a word, but for some reason I was motivated to go check.
Jenny, ever been to Atlanta? There are some silvery and glittery "ribald" areas to peruse.
No I've never been to Atlanta. If I go I'll have to watch out for the silvery glittery ribands... er... ribalds.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 6:03am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | You are under absolutely no obligation to respond to my viewpoints, how silly or annoying they may be.
Again, you are either confusing the issue and making it out to be much more than it is. Your viewpoints are not what I called silly, it's the way you're taking everything I say, confusing the point I'm trying to make, and blowing everything completely out of proportion.
OK, if that's what you meant to say from your first post. I am also very glad to hear you say this, because I understood differently.
Please tell me where I said anything REMOTELY like "computer game magazines should ignore and not even review games that I do not hold up to my standard of quality." My first post on this thread says nothing like that whatsoever.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 6:43am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Mark (27 AUG 2004 7:32pm)
Sorry I'm missed your "humorous connotation" (and I do not agree that one doesn't require knowledge of Mr. Dietrich's source material in order to find his comments humorous).
[smiley=bullcrap.gif] Ah! Now you are flippant... or could you have possibly assumed I was serious in my previous statements? The mere suggestion is ridiculous. But let us get back on topic...
As for your comments regarding modern game-related journalism, they are quite delightful, but your views are terribly unsound. I say "Phooey-Kaflooey!" Throughout much of your rant you sound like a cranky old man on a portico, gnashing your teeth, angrily bellowing at humanity because you have only just realised that the world has changed, oh my, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. Frankly, I too wish to return to the grand old days of early Sierra and LucasArts masterworks, when the world was young, the S.C.U.M.M. interface frolicked under mirthful mouseclicks of yore, and reviewing greats such as Joerg Langer were still writing for PC Player, but, alas, that cake melted in the rain long ago, all the sweet cream icing flowing down, and we'll never have that recipe again. We can but dream. "Un jour tout sera bien, voilà notre espérance. Tout est bien aujourd'hui, voilà l'illusion", as Voltaire once remarked.
Indeed, if you're like me - and I know I am - you detest the tedious pre-rendered puzzlers that have replaced the classics: Myst clones of such monumental garishness that a dog would be reluctant to relieve itself upon them. Yeah, give me more of those! Excuse me, Mr. Shopkeeper? Can I trade in my Leisure Suit Larry Collection for a copy of The Black Mirror? Oh, please, may I?
But seriously, to me actioners and RPGs such as Riddick and Knights of the Old Republic are far closer in spirit to the adventure games I grew up with. Why? The stories. The characters. The dialogue. Then again, I really don't need to be lectured by you. I was out playing adventure games when your grandfather was in diapers.
Pretty pictures and contrived puzzles do not an adventure game make. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 7:40am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | : And so another discussion will end up in the Hot Spot.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 7:47am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (28 AUG 2004 7:39am)
: And so another discussion will end up in the Hot Spot.
Hmmm, no William F. Buckley impersonations under threat of a point reduction.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 7:53am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By J. Eric Dietrich (28 AUG 2004 7:47am)
Hmmm, no William F. Buckley impersonations under threat of a point reduction.
Can't say i've watched MST3K so *Shrugs*
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 7:57am |
AllanonJourneyman
Posts : 1322
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | Shrugs aside ,
People think they have the answers . ' god shuffelled his/her feet ' Cheers !!
You only live once , but , if you live right , once is enough . Being happy takes work ...
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 8:01am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (28 AUG 2004 7:53am)
Can't say i've watched MST3K so *Shrugs*
Curses, foiled again.
No matter. This thread really should have been listed in the Hot Spot to begin with. Ancient though the argument may be, it obviously still has the power to enrage many an adventure game connoisseur.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 8:05am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | It was fine arguing it here until
If so, I cannot help but wonder how, with institutions for the feebleminded touting for custom at every corner, a man like you has succeeded in remaining at large. But let us get back on topic...
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 8:16am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (28 AUG 2004 8:04am)
It was fine arguing it here until...
Yes, perhaps my obloquy did go a tad too far. I'm afraid I found it impossible to come up with a more appropriate response to Mark's pointless niggling.
Still, the necessary modifications have been made.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 28 AUG 2004 at 1:23pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By J. Eric Dietrich (28 AUG 2004 6:43am)
and reviewing greats such as Joerg Langer were still writing for PC Player,
Btw... did you know that Joerg Langer chief editor of Gamestar just quit game journalism and got some manager position at IGN? Just to let you know in case you are a "fan" of him.
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| 29 AUG 2004 at 7:02am |
The UnderminerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 73
Joined: 28 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ogre (28 AUG 2004 1:23pm)
Btw... did you know that Joerg Langer chief editor of Gamestar just quit game journalism and got some manager position at IGN? Just to let you know in case you are a "fan" of him.
Interesting. If I'm not mistaken he also once worked for Peter Molyneux.
And yeah, I am obviously a fan. [smiley=blush.gif]
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants!
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| 17 OCT 2004 at 6:29pm |
NavarosIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 25
Joined: 17 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By redhat2 (23 AUG 2004 2:48am)
You are absolutely right..if the game is good enough they will get good marks..
this is actually quite untrue
CGW is viciously biased against adventure games, and so is PC Gamer. if you see a few adventure games get good scores, those scores were just put there to help "pull the wool over our eyes" about their vicious anti-adventure game bias
to prove my case, i cite the best adventure game ever made: Nocturne
CGW gave Nocturne a 30% - which is nothing short of insane, and horribly slanderous against a masterpiece of an adventure
PC Gamer's score was almost as shameful - giving Nocturne an also ludicrous 56%
now, let's look at what the credible Review sites gave to Nocturne:
this site, JA, just barely missed giving Nocturne the best possible score, and settled with an A
GameSpy gave Nocturne a 94% (which it deserves)
Adrenaline Vault gave Nocturne 4 out of 5 stars
Gamespot gave Nocturne a 70% --- and the only reasons that score was so low was because the Reviewer happened to suck at the game (as evidenced by numerous "comments" in the Review which prove empirically that he is judging the game based soley on his own lack of skill rather than objectively) and the fact that his computer hardware was too crappy to run the game properly. hence, Gamespot should not even be listed here as a "credible site" but i put it here anyways to show that even the whackiest online sites are not as ludicrously biased against adventure games as the gaming mags are
it's really immoral and unfair that gaming mags are biased against adventure games. makes reviving the genre much harder when all the major mags are telling everyone "adventure games are a crap and their time is dead" :
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