| 10 JAN 2005 at 10:53pm |
Frank BPrivate Detective
Posts : 449
Joined: 10 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By DJ Souza (16 AUG 2004 4:48am)
Why rare games cost so much? Because you can't find them anywhere else. So it's okay to sell them for huge amounts of cash on Ebay and make a huge profit, but it's not okay to distribute them for free, with no profit at all, even though the game can no longer be purchased in stores?
Still don't make much sense to me![smiley=boggled.gif]
I don't think it makes any difference whether the game is sold for a lot of money or offered for free. The main thing is, that you have just ONE copy, which you may either sell or give away to ONE other person. If you make it available as abandonware, it will be available to a lot of people.
It is sort of like if you own a book. You can sell it and make a huge profit, or you can give it away for free (that's ok), but you cannot make 100 copies of the book, and hand them out to people in the street, neither for money nor for free (that would be similar to abandonware).
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 12:49am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By FrankB (10 JAN 2005 10:53pm)
It is sort of like if you own a book. You can sell it and make a huge profit, or you can give it away for free (that's ok), but you cannot make 100 copies of the book, and hand them out to people in the street, neither for money nor for free (that would be similar to abandonware).
Of course you can, if it is for instance Shakespeare or Poe. Why couldn't you?
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 12:55am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (11 JAN 2005 12:48am)
Of course you can, if it is for instance Shakespeare or Poe. Why couldn't you?
He assumes that you know that he's talking about books that are not in the public domain! :
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 1:08am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (11 JAN 2005 12:54am)
He assumes that you know that he's talking about books that are not in the public domain! :
I don't like to make assumptions about other people's assumptions. How hard is it to add one word ("copyrighted" and make everything crystal clear?
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 5:20am |
Orange_BratIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 4 APR 2004
Status : Online | Abandonware sites are warez sites and unless the software on it has explicitly been released to the public domain by the copyright holder, downloading it is a crime and makes you subject to a well deserved lawsuit and/or criminal charges. End of story.
This is all cut and dry and not subject to any kind of gray area semantics. Even the well known Underdogs site makes this quite clear in its FAQ:
But isn't abandonware illegal?
Unfortunately, yes. Despite the fact that publishers no longer derive revenues from these games since they have stopped selling them (and any revenues from retailers that still sell them were gained a long time ago, at the time of sales), it is illegal to distribute them so long as copyright holders have not released them into the public domain, and 95 years after the games' release have not elapsed.
[url=http://www.thedisenfranchised.com/]The Disenfranchised™[/url] - coming later
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 5:28am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | So are you saying that everyone who has downloaded a ten year old game that isn't for sale anymore might as well go out and download all the brand new $50 games they can find since they're "criminals" anyway?
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 8:52am |
Frank BPrivate Detective
Posts : 449
Joined: 10 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (11 JAN 2005 1:07am)
I don't like to make assumptions about other people's assumptions. How hard is it to add one word ("copyrighted" and make everything crystal clear?
But aren't all books copyrighted by the publisher - even Shakespeare? If you buy a brand new edition of a book with some work of Shakespeare, are you then allowed to make photocopies of that book to sell or give away? I think not.
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 9:43am |
Orange_BratIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 4 APR 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (11 JAN 2005 5:28am)
So are you saying that everyone who has downloaded a ten year old game that isn't for sale anymore might as well go out and download all the brand new $50 games they can find since they're "criminals" anyway?
In my eyes, what people do in the privacy of their own home is their business, however, that doesn't make it legal. Anyone that downloads a copyrighted work has broken the law; thus a crime committed. It should be dealt with accordingly. Whether that be a fine/jailtime, and/or litigation is up to the powers that be to sort out. Keep in mind there are also Fair Use issues, so it must be understood that certain materials can be used for certain purposes.
There is no difference between downloading an unavailable 10-year old game that still has a legitimate copyright holder(meaning not in the public domain) and a new one that you can freely find on stores shelves and within any price range. The flawed line of reasoning that, "well that person wasn't going to buy it anyway so no sale was lost", doesn't wash and is so full of holes it isn't worth addressing. Tell it to the judge and see what happens.
I'm a developer, and this is a huge issue for me. Piracy won't be stopped, but it can be manipulated if the proper measures are used. I'm actually more interested in the authorities going after the organizations or the person(s) that distribute and/or release the downloadable material as opposed to every Joe Blow that downloads it. A larger impact will be made, but like anything else there will always be some other scum to take their place. This is what Conitec, the developers of a 3D engine I use, does. When they find a pirated version of their product, they look and see who it is registered to(each one is individually registered and it's usually a crippled beta version) and they go after that individual. They have to pay the purchase price of every single copy that was downloaded(and they use the Pro version price which is $900 a pop).
Just because it is unavailable now doesn't mean it will be forever. Companies are finding new ways to market old games. I see old arcade games packed into joysticks you plug into a TV. This past Xmas I saw a new Atari 2600 with a bunch of games loaded onto it. I never thought I'd see that, and there are plenty of old 8- and 16-bit Nintendo titles being released on Gameboy Advance. I bet one of these days the PC industry will jump back on the compilation CDROM(or better yet DVDROM) bandwagon like they did back in the 90s. Anything is possible and as long as they hold that copyright they have the right to do so and the right to protect their property. Just as I would have the right to sue anyone that I can find that uploads my game for distribution on the internet, and I certainly will.
But aren't all books copyrighted by the publisher - even Shakespeare? If you buy a brand new edition of a book with some work of Shakespeare, are you then allowed to make photocopies of that book to sell or give away? I think not.
That's right but the actual work can be...just not the pages from the copyrighted book.
[url=http://www.thedisenfranchised.com/]The Disenfranchised™[/url] - coming later
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 3:36pm |
| Deleted User | Developers and publishers often claim that every pirated copy is a "lost buy". Thats completely nonsense! Since the games market is especially targeted at kids, teens and young adults - the group with usually the lowest budget the prices of games are way too high.
I for myself see this often, I buy a lot of games that cost 10 bucks or less even though they are older. Old games are of courrse uninteresting for the majority. If for example a new game would cost 10 Euro games wouldn't have to compete as heavy with discos, cellphone ringtones and so on because they would be easier to afford and for that bought more. Everyone has a certain limit of money he can spend. So if software companies want to earn more money and sell more they have to lower the prices (heavily)! Simple as that.
But maybe companies don't want to lower prices because they sell enough and lower prices would'nt mean a higher income? That means they secretly accept the situation that not everybody can afford to buy the games or software and live with the pirated copies because they wouldn't have earned more anyway? If that last statement isn't true the managers are dumb because if they want to compete and sell more they have to lower prices. It's a circle.
Btw Microsoftfor example used pirated copies as a strategy to sell their products, Office and Windows alike! The price is too high for personal use but because everybody can easily access a pirated version (and not use a free or competitors software instead) those home users made companies buy the original copy. Think about what would happen (uproar, protests etc.) if office staff would need to use Open Office under Linux at work.... (that would be the cheapest for both home and company).
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 3:38pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | For me, it's cut and dry, legal or not. If I can't purchase the game from the developer or the publisher, or any licensed distributor, then I have no problems with downloading the game for free. It's better than paying an exorbitant amount for a copy of dubious quality from someone over the internet.
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 7:10pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By FrankB (11 JAN 2005 8:52am)
But aren't all books copyrighted by the publisher - even Shakespeare? If you buy a brand new edition of a book with some work of Shakespeare, are you then allowed to make photocopies of that book to sell or give away? I think not.
For anyone who is interested, here is a summary of the laws regarding copyright of books in the U.S.:
Anything copyrighted prior to 1923 is in the public domain. (Practically speaking, this includes anything published prior to 1923, since publication without copyright put the work straight into the public domain. There are some limited exceptions.)
Certain works copyrighted in 1923 or later may already have entered the public domain. In particular, works published in the US before 1989 without proper copyright notice, and works published in the US before 1964 whose copyrights were not renewed, may have entered the public domain.
Works never published prior to 2003 (and never registered for copyright prior to 1978 ) are now in the public domain in the US if they are by authors who died more than 70 years before the most recent New Year's day.
So, while you could not photocopy a publisher's book of Shakespeare containing photographs and/or commentary on the text and reproduce it for sale, you could scan the absolute Shakespeare text and do whatever you wanted with it.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 7:36pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (11 JAN 2005 7:10pm)
So, while you could not photocopy a publisher's book of Shakespeare containing photographs and/or commentary on the text and reproduce it for sale, you could scan the absolute Shakespeare text and do whatever you wanted with it.
And not surprisingly, someone has already done that.
I forgot my sig.
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| 11 JAN 2005 at 7:41pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Orange_Brat (11 JAN 2005 9:43am)
The flawed line of reasoning that, "well that person wasn't going to buy it anyway so no sale was lost", doesn't wash and is so full of holes it isn't worth addressing.
Actually, I think it is - certainly in case the game is not available for sale at all. So please do expose the holes for our benefit.
Also please explain how downloading a warez version of a game currently on store shelves is exactly the same as downloading abandonware game whose copyright holder doesn't even exist anymore (company went out of business etc.).
I forgot my sig.
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| 12 JAN 2005 at 3:01pm |
| Deleted User | It's a fact that the currently by our politicians esteblished copyright laws are influenced by huge companies and have no reason - if those companies managers would have paid more attention to the stuff they studied during the first semester in economics...
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| 12 JAN 2005 at 7:10pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Tough call as always and you'd think as a creative professional that I would strongly support the strictest, longest most comprehensive copyright, trademark and patent laws imaginable. But I don't.
Instead I support a reasonable balance between copyright protection and fair use, education, free speech, sharing information / ideas and open communication.
I also recognize the extreme temptation that our still new high tech toys present to many people - especially young ones who have very little money of their own and a screaming hunger to try all sorts of cool new stuff as soon as possible. Hey, we were all impatient at that age and most of us were dirt poor at one time. We were also fiercely curious and rebelious.
Now we all have instant access to a whole world of goodies for pratically no money. But we shouldn't expect the human race to suddenly sprout puritanical wings, strident ethics and a powerful penchant for self-restriction / abstinence just because these new avenues have opened up and digital piracy has become a problem.
I suggest a much less combative, more pro-active approach by all big copyright holders to instill a sense of healthy partnership with the masses of music, film and game fans the world over. They must appeal to their basic sense of decency by promoting the idea that a fair, mutually beneficial relationship is critical if these and other related industries are to survive. They also have to find new and better ways of marketing and distributing their products taking full advantage of the built-in cost efficiencies of the technology and pass on a meaningful amount of savings to those same consumers.
These good faith gestures on the part of the sellers should also come along with a simple request for fair treatment and at least a modicum of respect for their legal and creative rights. Cooperative symbiosis should be the aim, not courtroom confrontations, media scare tactics and outright threats.
If enough effort is made (along with some respectable compromises on profit expectations), I feel that in time a very strong partnership can be formed, based on mutual good will and honesty that most people would voluntarilly support. This could in turn change attitudes to the point that most private individuals (including kids) would no longer find it so acceptable amongst peers to steal any and all material for personal use - let alone for any form of mass distribution.
The legal copyright holders and creative artists should be able to expect fair compensation. But they simply must realize that the world changed dramatcially with the emergence of affordable PCs and cheap access to the web on a global scale. So a new paradigm needs to be developed for leaping the gap between old laws intended to protect rights under now obsolete conditions and the realities of today's wide open, electronically powered market place.
Cheers, Terry
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| 12 JAN 2005 at 10:25pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | As Terry infers, this can be a complex problem. I sympathize with developers when it comes to their being ripped off of profits due them. On the other hand, the scenario of the game that is not available to buy anywhere because the company has long since gone out of business is a tricky one, especially if the rights have not been past on to an entity that still is in business and may plan to re-publish the game.
Strictly speaking it would be illegal to make available and/or download this sort of abandonware if it wasn't in the public domain, but in practice the only recourse for the owner of the copyright (assuming they're out of business) would be civil litigation (no district-attorney/prosecutor would take this sort of case). In civil court, in practice, one has to show some sort of loss that allows for damages- if the company is out of business, it can hardly claim that it is losing profits from the game being downloaded so damages would be unlikely, so much so that it wouldn't make sense to try to collect to begin with (an alternative, punitive damages, would be unlikely here). Certainly, no lawyer that I know of would take that sort of case unless paid up front for it.
So, all that's really left is the ethical question which each person has to decide for themselves!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 10 AUG 2008 at 2:58am |
TheWallOfYawnIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 1
Joined: 10 AUG 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By lakerz (30 JUL 2004 9:13pm)
Originally Posted By jujigatame (30 JUL 2004 12:31am)
If a game is no longer available for purchase by the publisher, I feel no moral qualms about downloading it. If they don't want my money, so be it.
The only problem with this is, why didn't you buy it when it was available?
I am new here, and I for one was not old enough to have known about some of the more obscure older games (i.e Operation Bodycount, Dragonsphere, Abuse) when I was younger.
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| 10 AUG 2008 at 4:54pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
If a game is no longer available for purchase by the publisher, I feel no moral qualms about downloading it. If they don't want my money, so be it.
The only problem with this is, why didn't you buy it when it was available?
I am new here, and I for one was not old enough to have known about some of the more obscure older games (i.e Operation Bodycount, Dragonsphere, Abuse) when I was younger.
Good point and as mentioned earlier, it's pretty unrealistic to expect people to forego playing a game that appeals to them simply because the developer / publisher went out of business and good used copies are impossible or nearly impossible to find.
It's very much like old books or old vinyl record albums that are still laying around in dusty boxes all over the world. They exist and newer generations want to enjoy them too. But we don't place such extreme restrictions on buying, selling, trading, reading or listening to them as we do with new material.
The difference of course is the format. Digital media just makes it so much easier to copy, distribute and use intellectual property with total disregard for the creator's rights or wishes.
However, with outdated games that are no longer being published at all, the net effect of using abandonware really isn't any different than giving away free copies of old, out-of-print books or recordings. In many cases, it is the ONLY way people can still access and enjoy these things because most of them can not - under any circumstances - afford to pay outrageous prices for rare copies - assuming they can even find them.
There is also the problem of getting old games to run on newer PCs with newer operating systems.
So what we have is a whole catalog of cool, older games laying around in consumer limbo. They still exist and with a little effort, most can still be played. But there just isn't a practical, reasonable, affordable method to access and experience them other than abandonware sites and free emulator programs like DOSBox and SCUMM VM.
As a creative professional, I would be flattered if people still wanted to enjoy my work long after it went out of print. I also believe that it's my responsibility to meet a consumer demand if one exists. In doing so, it's also my responsibility to adapt older works to more recent technology and means of distribution, so people can access it easily and affordably.
What I do not find reasonable is for creator's and other copyright holders to sit on classic works and refuse to update them when clearly there is a renewed demand. People want to play these older games and today's technology allows instant access - regardless of current legal restrictions.
In short, the code still exists, the demand is still there, and the average person now has the tools needed to acquire these old games. So why should anyone be surprised when gamers utitlize the latest technology to play older titles the only way they can?
Cheers, Terry
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| 10 AUG 2008 at 9:17pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | As someone who bought many games on diskette over the years and no longer has even a single one of the original sets (they were all long ago archived onto Zip disk >> CD >> DVD and the originals thrown away to make space), I can certainly understand the futility of attempting to purchase used copies of "rare" data.
Indeed, if my quest for Obsidian taught me anything, it's that it's far too expensive in the long run to bend to the will of greedy people who want to sell their old games for more than they paid for them in the first place. I'm perfectly willing to trade my old stuff (I have, in private, done so twice with members here recently) without any expectation of monetary compensation, but of course supply is limited, and not everyone is as willing as I.
Illegally acquiring something like Inherit the Earth is one thing, but when no one is selling their old, musty diskettes of Martian Memorandum for a fair price, what choice does one have, other than dejectedly going without such excellent entertainment?
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 11 AUG 2008 at 8:08am |
| Deleted User | I would like to add my support to all of Terry's posts above.
And, JKing, I know exactly the kind of frustration you are talking about. I've had it with many old games that I've tried to acquire legally.
Regarding the: The only problem with this is, why didn't you buy it when it was available? Why does a game company have to make every title they develop available for sale for all of eternity? That doesn't make sense to me. question, -an example:
I am old enough to have still played King's Quest 6 on one of those old-fashioned floppy disks, many years ago - my very first introduction to gaming, bought actually by my boyfriend, and played together.
However, I am young enough, like many of the posters above, not to have known much about PC's or even adventure gaming in those days (the only alternative I really knew of, was Pacman?) And so I would never have had the savvy to have been able to somehow transfer my copy of the game to disk as CD-DVD writers were the domain of an elect few until only a few years ago.
Sadly my PC that still featured one of those old-fashioned disc drives, blew before I had the cash to purchase for myself the necessary CD/DVD writing hardware and software, to do that kind of transfer.
So, even taking into account that one would've been old enough to actually have purchased a copy back then, the format that it was presented in, -even if still owned, (floppy/stiffy disk) is currently unusable to the technically uninitiated, like myself.
So very happy I was, when Vivendi decided to re-release a bunch of the ancient Sierra classics with Dosbox, amongst which the King's Quest games, - as it had sentimental value, if nothing else.
How angry I felt with them though, for not doing the same for Gabriel Knight!
Who knows, now that the rights have finally been re-sold, we might be lucky enough to a Gabriel Knight 4 see the light, with a special edition featuring the set of all 4 games included! Oh, what bliss that would be!
In the cases of really, really rare games, of which the few copies floating around reach ridiculous asking prices, I wouldn't really blame a person for deciding to use the only means available to him/her to get hold of a copy.
In no way do I support piracy of readily available games though. If your neighbour forgot his jacket out on the lawn, would you steal it, just because you 'can'?
I don't think I could live with myself if did that. This is where personal ethics come into play.
If, however, I were to stumble accross a diamond lying in the desert, no humans for miles and miles around, - would I take it?
You bet I would!
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| 11 AUG 2008 at 1:59pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | In many cases I think it is ok, when the original author gives permission. In most cases with abandonware, they have. A few years ago when I was heavily into the retro gaming and hanging out at remakes.org it was very important that when making a remake of a game to contact the original author and asking for permission first. By far most of the authors said yes go ahead and that they were looking forward to seeing what you could come up with - they had long since not made any money from their original game.
However, there were a few that said no because those games were so small in terms of resources that they were perfect for the burgeoning cell phone games market and they were in the process of re releasing them for cell phones. Apparently the cell phone capabilities leapfrogged their efforts as I haven't heard anything more on that push since.
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| 5 OCT 2008 at 8:02pm |
SpiritogreIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 30 SEP 2008
Location: DE
Status : Offline | I like to have my games in boxes on a shelf, I like to collect them.
I can't play all games that interest me - lack of time.
Some companies release their old games for free, that's great!
Others cling to their licence like no tomorrow (Mickey Mouse, Star Wars, anyone...) - not fine, especially when the title isn't available in stores anymore - but legally it still doesn't give me the right to download the game (or worse offer the download) if they don't allow it. In that case I always say: Fine by me, there are so many games out there, I don't need your stuff if you don't want me to play it I play games from other companies ...
and I say that to companies who sell offline single player games with (limited) online activation as well (Bioshock, Mass Effect). If they don't want me to play their games and probably get me as paying custumer - their problem.
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| 11 OCT 2008 at 1:46am |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | I agree with Terry's and Travellers, and other well put posts too, and i buy what i study and play. Yes it is hard at times to run them, but i have both a series of older machines and have found most will run on XP with work, and ppl are adding emulators all the time.
Sad stories abound about the damage of piracy, Ragnar said that there were over 200,000 piracted copies of Dreamfall by their (FunCom's) estimation out on the game scene at the time of release ofifically. So they will not sell any more boxes stand alone games, and I dont blame them. years and years of work go into a top line title, thousands of hours and huge effort.
nuff said.
good topic!
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