If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the
FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to
register or
login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
| 11 JUL 2004 at 10:30pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Ksandra (11 JUL 2004 10:16pm)
I did try to expain this.
I'm not blaming you at all. It just seems to me that some of the posters in this thread misunderstood what you wrote.
|
| 11 JUL 2004 at 10:41pm |
BastichPrivate Detective
Posts : 622
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Status : Offline | I think someone needs to watch a few thousand more movies and read a few hundred more books, and maybe they will understand why story is pretty unimportant compared to characterization...
|
| 11 JUL 2004 at 10:59pm |
| Deleted User | It's impossible to have a story with no characters in it
As any writer will tell you. You cannot write a story without characters.
However, it is altogether possible to have characters with little-to-no story. Look at virtually anything written by Joyce Carol Oates. Most of her stories pretty much do have a character sitting in a chair for two hours thinking about stuff or musing over reminiscences or some such boring crap.
|
| 11 JUL 2004 at 11:05pm |
| Deleted User | As to puzzles that actually advance the plot rather than being an interruption or distraction to it, I am going to throw out In Memoriam/Missing as an example. While the puzzles themselves don't advance the backstory/backplot of Jack & Karen's disappearance, many of them actually relate to the Phoenix and his murders. Working the puzzle actually will give you a victim's name or location or Phoenix's motive for choosing them or help establish a pattern to predict his next victim, etc.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 1:09am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I like the idea of In Memoriam but could never get around the lack of a gameworld. Had they taken that premise and actually made an enviroment in which to operate it might have actually been something good. As it was....meh.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 5:03am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By scout (11 JUL 2004 9:36pm)
Of course the character can't sit in a chair for two hours. That's an extreme example.
Seems to me that in Sanitarium the character spent most of the game comatose. That comes pretty close.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 5:07am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ford_Prefect (11 JUL 2004 7:55pm)
The character must be taken through the story that will show many aspects of his personality, allow the player to get to know the character's good sides and the bad, his fears, his desires, his strong points and weaknesses. The story makes the character real.
Ideally that's what would happen. But I've played too many games where the character just walks through his paces and I don't know a thing more about him (or her) at the end of the game than I do at the beginning.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 6:03am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bastich (11 JUL 2004 10:40pm)
I think someone needs to watch a few thousand more movies and read a few hundred more books, and maybe they will understand why story is pretty unimportant compared to characterization...
[smiley=rofl.gif] If you say so.
Personally I think I've seen plenty of movies and read plenty of books to realise that your opinion matters squat to me.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 7:18am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (12 JUL 2004 5:03am)
Seems to me that in Sanitarium the character spent most of the game comatose. That comes pretty close.
SPOILER
Sanitarium is not about a person lying in a bed. That would be 20 hours of white noise. Sanitarium is about the journey that person took to awake whole... lying in that bed. Big difference.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 4:07pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | I dislike the idea that adventure games must tell great, elaborate stories. The base of the genre is puzzles, as in tests of ingenuity, and the reason why I play them is for the joy of overcoming unique brain-bending challenges. These days, adventure games cannot compete with other genres when it comes to stroytelling. The most rivetting story that I have ever seen in a videogame was in Grant Theft Auto: Vice City. Some strategy games have great stories too, like StarCraft and the Zelda games. Storytelling has permeated every genre now, including driving games and shooters, and some of the stories are bloody fantastic.
I don't know why adventure game developers like Ragnar Tornqvist, Benoit Sokal and Steve Ince feel they must compete with the exhaustive storytelling that has stormed the entire medium of videogames. They're focusing on it so hard that they've lost their base, which is puzzle fans. Videogame fans who want grandiose fiction can find it in any genre now. Adventure games are, and always have been, for puzzle enthusiasts.
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 10:19pm |
| Deleted User | @ Crapstorm:
Thank you. [smiley=bowdown.gif]
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 10:29pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Wow, CrapStorm, well said! (...or should that be 'written'?)
|
| 12 JUL 2004 at 11:52pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (12 JUL 2004 4:07pm)
I don't know why adventure game developers like Ragnar Tornqvist, Benoit Sokal and Steve Ince feel they must compete with the exhaustive storytelling that has stormed the entire medium of videogames. They're focusing on it so hard that they've lost their base, which is puzzle fans. Videogame fans who want grandiose fiction can find it in any genre now. Adventure games are, and always have been, for puzzle enthusiasts.
Look at the poll. Do the math.
|
| 13 JUL 2004 at 2:48pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Oh, okay. The mob has spoken.
|
| 13 JUL 2004 at 2:52pm |
AnneGuild Master
Posts : 4800
Joined: 8 MAR 2003
Status : Online | To the guillotine with him. >
|
| 13 JUL 2004 at 6:12pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (12 JUL 2004 4:07pm)
I don't know why adventure game developers like Ragnar Tornqvist, Benoit Sokal and Steve Ince feel they must compete with the exhaustive storytelling that has stormed the entire medium of videogames. They're focusing on it so hard that they've lost their base, which is puzzle fans. Videogame fans who want grandiose fiction can find it in any genre now. Adventure games are, and always have been, for puzzle enthusiasts.
Adventure games are the ONLY genre that is playable for story-loving gamers who can't handle or simply don't like action in their games. I'm glad there are story-heavy adventure games around for people who enjoy them, even though I personally usually prefer the puzzle-oriented type.
Why insist that all games in a genre be the same? The puzzle-oriented and story-oriented subgenres have been around since before Myst and they each have their fans. There's room for both.
|
| 13 JUL 2004 at 6:46pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (13 JUL 2004 2:48pm)
Oh, okay. The mob has spoken.
Heh. Grumpy puzzle mandarins.
|
| 13 JUL 2004 at 7:40pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (13 JUL 2004 6:12pm)
Why insist that all games in a genre be the same? The puzzle-oriented and story-oriented subgenres have been around since before Myst and they each have their fans. There's room for both.
This is true. However, I do feel that there has been a general trend in recent years towards making adventures easier, and focusing more on story at the expense of puzzles (although there are a few exceptions, such as the Schizm games). It may well be that this is what the majority of adventure gamers want;that doesn't make it any better for us puzzlers.
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 12:16am |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (13 JUL 2004 6:12pm)
Adventure games are the ONLY genre that is playable for story-loving gamers who can't handle or simply don't like action in their games.
Are you forgetting about turn-based strategy games? The Heroes of Might and Magic series is not light on storytelling. And I think some of the Sid Meier Civilization clones had sizeable servings of character and plot as well.
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 6:52am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ksandra (13 JUL 2004 7:40pm)
However, I do feel that there has been a general trend in recent years towards making adventures easier, and focusing more on story at the expense of puzzles (although there are a few exceptions, such as the Schizm games).
And RHEM. Perhaps also Alida and Aura. I haven't played them yet, though from what I've read they are good. And Sentinel, by the makers of Schizm, is coming. Also Myst IV looks promising. So I'd say things are looking pretty good for puzzle-lovers.
It may well be that this is what the majority of adventure gamers want; that doesn't make it any better for us puzzlers.
38.7% thought story was more important. That isn't a majority.
61.3% thought puzzles were as important or more important.
Things may actually look worse for those 61.3% than for those who prefer puzzles, since very few games seem to have both good puzzles and good story/characters.
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 6:57am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (14 JUL 2004 12:15am)
Are you forgetting about turn-based strategy games? The Heroes of Might and Magic series is not light on storytelling. And I think some of the Sid Meier Civilization clones had sizeable servings of character and plot as well.
I suppose I am. I haven't played any and don't know much about them.
But aren't they becoming rarer these days, being pushed aside by RTS?
Are there still new ones coming out?
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 11:25am |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (14 JUL 2004 6:52am)
And RHEM. Perhaps also Alida and Aura. I haven't played them yet, though from what I've read they are good. And Sentinel, by the makers of Schizm, is coming. Also Myst IV looks promising. So I'd say things are looking pretty good for puzzle-lovers.
It could be that things are picking up again. But sadly, most of those games are not available in the UK
38.7% thought story was more important. That isn't a majority.
61.3% thought puzzles were as important or more important.
Things may actually look worse for those 61.3% than for those who prefer puzzles, since very few games seem to have both good puzzles and good story/characters.
On the other hand, it could be that these people are more willing to tolerate a game where both puzzles and story are moderately good.
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 12:54pm |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I've got nothing to say except that I am enjoying this topic. Good conversation all around
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
|
| 14 JUL 2004 at 3:53pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Yes, turn-based strategy games are being eclipsed by the real-time strategy craze, and that's a shame too. The big publishers are taking the strategy out of strategy games and dropping adventure games altogether.
|
