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| 10 JUL 2004 at 4:49pm |
bdeckedSchattenjger
Posts : 1620
Joined: 14 OCT 2011
Status : Online | I think anyone is utterly crazy to say the stories are even remotely good. You are all nuts.
And you know what? Despite the truth of the above, it makes NO DIFFERENCE!
Would you grant that there at least has to be SOME sort of a story? Cuz I've played games where you walk down a hall... you enter a room... and you have to solve 4 hard puzzles before you get to do anything else.... and there's no indication as to WHY I'm doing any of this except "get through the door."
True, I don't care if I'm getting through the door so that I can rescue my dead brother's soul from a psychotic mystical maniac, visit aliens on a distant planet, or find remnants of an ancient culture.... at least it's SOMETHING...
???
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 4:51pm |
AnneGuild Master
Posts : 4800
Joined: 8 MAR 2003
Status : Online | In creating a story you are using puppets.You can use `Little Red Riding Hood`and turn it into magic.Or you can use Gabriel Knight and make it wooden.The magic,the creativity is from the creator.
they start with`This is my story and this is the way I tell it`They always have done.The story is with the story teller.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 4:54pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bastich (10 JUL 2004 4:38pm)
Oh man... I tried. I really did.
Obviously not hard enough :
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:01pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bastich (10 JUL 2004 4:38pm)
Oh man... I tried. I really did.
Let's make one thing clear: THE STORIES IN ADVENTURE GAMES SUCK!!!!
They are some of the cheesiest, pathetically clichéd, B-movie, let's make Ed Wood proud garbage I have ever encountered. With the exception of an extremely minsicule number of games, I think anyone is utterly crazy to say the stories are even remotely good. You are all nuts.
And you know what? Despite the truth of the above, it makes NO DIFFERENCE! People have never really given a damn about story, they care about CHARACTERS! This is true of film and books also.
It isn't where you are going, but who you spend your time with. If you like the characters, it doesn't matter that you are saving the world from lame-ass Templars for the nth time, that you have amnesia, are exploring Egypt yet AGAIN, etc. Likewise, the most thought-provoking intense story, will be unenjoyable if the characters suck. Story is mostly irrelevant.
I'm glad you decided to post this, as it's an interesting distinction. I'm trying to think of games where I enjoyed the story but didn't like the characters. In every comedy game I've played it's definitely the characters that are important rather than the story.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:06pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Hmmm...
Looks like Bastich changed his mind about posting after all. :-/
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:17pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (10 JUL 2004 8:01pm)
I'm glad you decided to post this, as it's an interesting distinction. I'm trying to think of games where I enjoyed the story but didn't like the characters. In every comedy game I've played it's definitely the characters that are important rather than the story.
But there is no distinction. Without characters there is no story. How can he say people don't care about the story, only the characters when the characters ARE the story. Even in the likes of Myst because you are the character acting out the story.
It's impossible to have a story with no characters in it
As any writer will tell you. You cannot write a story without characters.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:31pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (10 JUL 2004 8:17pm)
But there is no distinction. Without characters there is no story.
There is certainly a distinction between good characters and bad characters ("bad characters" meaning uninteresting characters that you don't care about), no matter how interesting the story.
Is it possible to have an interesting story without interesting (or at least likable) characters? Black Mirror comes to mind. I didn't like Samuel, but for the first part of the game, uncovering the mystery of what happened at Black Mirror was interesting despite Samuel. But as I said in an earlier post, exploring the gameworld is important to me and Black Mirror might not have been so interesting to me if the gameworld hadn't been interesting to explore.
I'm not disagreeing with you that characters are important and can "make" the story. I have a hard time thinking of games with good stories but bad characters.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:38pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (10 JUL 2004 8:31pm)
There is certainly a distinction between good characters and bad characters ("bad characters" meaning uninteresting characters that you don't care about), no matter how interesting the story.
But there isn't really between character and story so bad characters=bad story
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:47pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (10 JUL 2004 3:29pm)
Well you are never going to please everyone anyway no matter how hard or easy you make the puzzles. Thats why the traditional storytelling methods of controlling pace can't be used. The story has to be told in a different manner. Doesn't mean you can't do decent stories though.
In what different manner, though? Puzzles do not present fixed pacing. Some people will spend hours on a puzzle type that they find very difficult. Others will find it easy and breeze past it. Music puzzles and sliders are good examples of this. (Not to say that sliders are great adventure game puzzles.)
You cannot predict how a person will respond to a particular puzzle, so there IS no way of controlling pacing in an adventure game. For example, the GK3 story failed for me because I spent so much time wandering around to the wrong places. Other people think the GK3 plot is great. Is it my fault I spent too much time wandering around and lost track of where the plot is going?
You can't really control pacing in a truly interactive medium. Only when the player is railroaded through the story through non-interactive sequences can you completely control pacing. But that's not a game anymore.
Disk space isn't really a valid argument. Again that is the fault of economics or the developer not the genre. Saying that because GK2 had alot of cut scenes etc they couldn't put any difficult puzzles doesn't ring true. Yes there probably was financial issues that limited the amount of disk space, but apart from that what's to say they couldn't have made the puzzles harder even if it took another CD's worth of info.
That is a development choice which they made to fit the game on so many CD's. In the same way that they could have told the same story in the style of the first one without all that FMV and fit it on less disks was a development choice.
Mea culpa. A stupid thing to say. Ok, forget disk space.
However, I do think that gameplay time is a factor here. No matter how you design a puzzle, solving a puzzle doesn't develop plot or character. What are you learning about the plot of the Zork universe by fiddling with the flood control dam? What are you learning about Grace's relationship with Gabe by drawing lines on a map? Contrariwise, if you're reading a long spiel on Zorkian architectural history, you're developing the background story but you're not playing a game. It's not interactive. If Gabe and Grace sit down and have a talk about their relationship, that can tell you an awful lot about them as characters but it won't add to the interactivity.
After a certain point, plot and puzzles become mutually exclusive. If you want to develop the plot beyond an amusing story, you need to do it through cutscenes and dialogue. Which means the player will have to sit there, watching a cutscene, instead of playing. Time taken away from gameplay.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 8:50pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (10 JUL 2004 8:38pm)
But there isn't really between character and story so bad characters=bad story
See above where I added to my post. You must have posted while I was editing my post.
You may not be able to have much of a story without characters. But you can certainly have a story with uninteresting, poorly developed, or cliche characters. I don't see story and characters as exactly the same thing, though I do see the importance of good characters to a story.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 9:02pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (10 JUL 2004 8:50pm)
You may not be able to have much of a story without characters. But you can certainly have a story with uninteresting, poorly developed, or cliche characters.
That's true and Black Mirror is a good example. The story would have been much better if you cared at all about the character. It's a good example of a bad or unlikable character spoiling the story slightly.
Although I do think it is possible to have a good story with an unlikable character rather than a bad (i.e sterotype or carboard cutout) character. The character you love to hate as long as he is well fleshed out so to speak.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 10 JUL 2004 at 9:11pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fickfack (10 JUL 2004 8:47pm)
In what different manner, though? Puzzles do not present fixed pacing.
Wish I knew then I would be writing adventures rather than playing them. I just think there should be a way round it to take pacing out the equation and still have a decent story that all can enjoy.
Maybe one day.
after a certain point, plot and puzzles become mutually exclusive. If you want to develop the plot beyond an amusing story, you need to do it through cutscenes and dialogue. Which means the player will have to sit there, watching a cutscene, instead of playing. Time taken away from gameplay.
Yes cutscenes are inevitable, but there is a limit obviously before it turns into a movie.
Maybe there can be more puzzles that directly convey the plot without being mutually exclusive.
Jisaw puzzling notes together that convey plot. Maybe a companion that talks to you as you are puzzling that conveys plot points. Code puzzles on the history books that convey the backstory. Make the conversations more interactive. Make the stories more openended with multiple branches that you contribute to by your choices.
I don't have all the answers just wishful thinking that there is a way to do it.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 3:12pm |
BastichPrivate Detective
Posts : 622
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Thank you Jenny100 for restoring some of my faith in humanity and the educational system. I'm glad to see there are people who can distinguish between characterization and story...
And Lucien21, it is EFFORTLESS for a 3 year old to write a story without characterization. Characterization and story are NOT the same and NEVER have been.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 3:24pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bastich (11 JUL 2004 3:12pm)
Thank you Jenny100 for restoring some of my faith in humanity and the educational system. I'm glad to see there are people who can distinguish between characterization and story...
And Lucien21, it is EFFORTLESS for a 3 year old to write a story without characterization. Characterization and story are NOT the same and NEVER have been.
Maybe you should try reading what I said. I said it was impossible to write a story without CHARTACTERS.
Never mentioned characterization. >
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 3:28pm |
BastichPrivate Detective
Posts : 622
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Status : Offline | So, in other words, you were incapable of understanding my post and posted some off-topic nonsense in response to it.
Guess what? That is exactly why I deleted it.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 3:34pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Whatever :
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 4:59pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Well, the results are pretty much what I expected. Too bad for us puzzle-lovers, I suppose
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 5:32pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Ksandra (11 JUL 2004 4:59pm)
Well, the results are pretty much what I expected. Too bad for us puzzle-lovers, I suppose
I think that's fairly typical; the adenture games that sell nowadays tend to be light on puzzles in favour of story, so why should the gamers that play them be any different?
However, I also think people misconstrued the poll to mean that one element should be emphasized to the complete exclusion of the other. In other words, if I'm voting for puzzles, I'm voting that all adventures should be burnt and replaced with copies of Tetris.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 6:37pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Bastich, cranky though he be, is right. Charaterization trumps story every time. Any experienced writer can tell you that. How many writers, when asked where they get their ideas, respond by citing that it starts with a character that intrigues them. Even when story/plot starts out as the main thing, the characters soon take over.
Test on cognition and perception show that we are most fascinated by images of other human beings. Think how easy it is to see faces in abstract designs. We are riveted by our reflections and characters are those reflections in action, moving through story.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 7:41pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | But Story is not mostly irrelevant which is what I was arguing against.
2 hours of fantastic characterization of a guy sitting in a room doing nothing does not a good story or game make.
Characters (or characterization) are irrevocably linked to story you want to see what journey the character takes throught the story. How he changes or overcomes the obstacles of the plot. Yes good characterization can improve an average story, but it's not the be all and end all.
Story is not irrelevant.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 7:55pm |
Ford_PrefectIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 6
Joined: 9 JUL 2004
Status : Online | I agree that good characterisation is essential to the game, because for a player to get into the game he has to have a character that he can relate to, a character that has depth, life in it. However, I strongly disagree with the claim that characterisation is more important then the story. None of those two is more important simply because they are so interwined that one cannot exist without the other. Like life shapes the character of real people, the character of the game character (you still with me ? Cause after this, I'm a bit lost myself ??? ) develops through the story. You can't just play the character's bio in the game intro, no matter how great that bio may be. The character must be taken through the story that will show many aspects of his personality, allow the player to get to know the character's good sides and the bad, his fears, his desires, his strong points and weaknesses. The story makes the character real. End of story.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 9:37pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Of course the character can't sit in a chair for two hours. That's an extreme example. My insistance that the character is more important than story doesn't in any way disregard the importance of story. It's just that character is MORE important. Story exists to define character, not the other way around. Character is the vehicle we use to navigate the story. It's our point of view, the point of consciousness that allows us to experience the plot. We react to plot devices only so much as they affect the character. Do you care what the news tells you happens in another country or about what happens to someone you know or a feel affinity for?
Take the Tex Murphy games, games most people consider strong on story. What do you remember, say, about Pandora Directive? The plot or if Tex got the girl? Do we care more about the GK 3 plot outcome or the fates of Grace and Gabe?
Obviously the better the story the more vividly it will limn the character. I'm all for great stories. But more for great characters. That is the prize.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 9:58pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I've never said Story was more important than characterization. They are both interconnected.
I was replying to someone else who said Story was mostly irrelevant.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JUL 2004 at 10:02pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | (a bit off-topic)
Originally Posted By scout (11 JUL 2004 9:36pm)
Of course the character can't sit in a chair for two hours. That's an extreme example.
A character that sits in a chair for two hours... And in that time (turn- or event-based of course, not real-time) you have to finish the game. I seriously think you can make a wonderful adventuregame (possibly Interactive Fiction) out of that premise....
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