Just Adventure News : Addon: Legacy of Romulus Expansion to Star Trek Online Launches Game: Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment wishes gamers Good Night, Good Luck in Dying Light Beta: Second Phase of Eldevin Closed Beta Begins News: Video Games: The Movie Press Release: Indie Narrative / Strategy Game 7 Grand Steps Will Release June 7 for PC and Mac Gold: The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing Demo: Jack Haunt: Old Haunting Grounds Alpha Demo Released Game: Might And Delight Presents "Shelter" Early Gameplay Footage Press Release: Legendary Monsters Are Invading Age of Conan Press Release: New Settler and Scientist Path content for WildStar
Home - Forum Home
Welcome Guest, please Login or Register!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register or login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Topic: Make it more popular!

    Page 2 of 2 : «

5 FEB 2005 at 12:41am

HowardS

Space Cadet
Space Cadet



Posts : 103
Joined: 10 DEC 2002

Status : Online
Originally Posted By Agustin (4 FEB 2005 2:47am)
I think I made clear why I introduced the GK3 example - to prove a game can be equally entertaining and just as well designed regardless of its 'realistic' or 'well-researched' content. You're using your hability to research as a reason to dismiss the freeware games. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not a good enough reason!

Also, no need to try selling me your games every paragraph or so. I'm a member of the press and can't get them for free! <wink>

As for Anchorhead being better than some Infocom games, that should be obvious. I think Moonmist is a good point of comparisson. Anchorhead has a larger gaming area, better written passages, a more interesting storyline, some very good dramatic sequences (ie: the madman chasing you in the asylum) - I could go on for a while longer. Can't remember about the puzzles but Moonmist was also weak in that aspect. Needless to say, Anchorhead was a game that could've been easily commercialized with a good presentation. And it was successful regardless of any research Gentry did.

Can you see my point?


Yes, to a point.  But we're all over the place here by introducing a commercial graphical game and a freeware text adventure game and comparing them both, in some fashion, to my commercial text adventure games and Infocom's works respectively.

Moonmist was a fine game but I think The Lurking Horror was a better one if we're going to delve into the suspense/horror genre.  Comparing either to Anchorhead is a bit unfair in some ways as Anchorhead is a Z8 game which, sadly, is a Z-machine platform that Infocom couldn't work with for various, valid reasons. As for the writing..... I'd have to say that Michael Gentry certainly has skill but I don't know if he stacks up to any of the original Imps.

If the original Implementers had the ability to release Z8 games, I think you, me and a lot of other people would be even more enamored with the works of Infocom than we already are.  To cut to the quick, the original Imps did the very best they could with what they had at the time. And they did some pretty amazing things.

If we were to introduce your logic to my games then Pentari: First Light would be better than Zork.  We won't do that and I certainly will never say that or ever try to make any such claim. In that vein, I think such comparisons are far too hypothetical for serious discussion.

Howard Sherman
Implementor
http://www.malinche.net
Join the Text Adventure Game Renaissance! Visit http://www.malinche.net

Profile Search


5 FEB 2005 at 3:45am
Deleted User
Originally Posted By HowardS (5 FEB 2005 12:40am)

Comparing either to Anchorhead is a bit unfair in some ways as Anchorhead is a Z8 game which, sadly, is a Z-machine platform that Infocom couldn't work with for various, valid reasons. As for the writing..... I'd have to say that Michael Gentry certainly has skill but I don't know if he stacks up to any of the original Imps.
If the original Implementers had the ability to release Z8 games, I think you, me and a lot of other people would be even more enamored with the works of Infocom than we already are.  To cut to the quick, the original Imps did the very best they could with what they had at the time. And they did some pretty amazing things.

But many amateur IF games are still released as Z5. Z8 is still the exception rather than the rule.
In any case, Agustin's criticism of Moonmist as compared to Anchorhead wasn't based on the technical aspects; it was based on the quality of the writing and gameplay. And it doesn't seem to me that you've successfully demonstrated that your games go farther than amateur productions in any of these areas; you keep bringing up side issues such as research which are really of limited interest to the average player.

6 FEB 2005 at 12:49am

Agustín Cordes

Guild Master
Guild Master



Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires

Status : Offline
HowardS,

Hats off to you sir! You've skilfully managed to completely elude the subject here.

This time I'll try to be brief and cut to the chase -

1) Once again, I mentioned GK3 and Grim Fandango to make a point: they're equally great games regardless of any level of research involved. I never compared them to IF, commercial or not - so don't imply I did that.

2) You asked me to explain why I think Anchorhead is better than some Infocom games. I don't think it's better than The Lurking Horror, but I do think it's better than Moonmist, which is also suspense, and I gave a number of reasons why.

3) Z-Machine versions have absolutely nothing to do with this. I grant you there might have been notable differences among the early versions but I'm sure you as an Implementor must know that the only difference between Z5 and Z8 is the size of the games, which can be twice as big in Z8. Even so, it's all relative given A Mind Voyaging Forever(*) is a huge game, probably one of the biggest IF's ever, with tons of activity and little details - and it was coded in Z4! So no, I'm afraid the Z-Machine version has nothing to do with quality here.

(*) Now there you have another great, great game that didn't need much research or visiting any real locations

4) Interestingly enough, now that you brought up Pentari yourself, it'd seem you didn't have to investigate a lot to create that game - I mean, it's a fantasy setting, right? So tell me then - convince me - what makes it better than the freewares "which only go as far"?


In case you forgot the subject, it's all about that little thing you said about the freeware IF community. There are some enormously talented writers and designers that have been carrying the tradition of the good old IF for years now, investing their free time to create games for nothing.

It's alright, we all understand you're running a business here and must try to defend your work - but not at the expense of those people.

Slightly Deranged - Cult Cinema And Games!

www.slightly-deranged.com


Profile Search
6 FEB 2005 at 2:56am

Stalker

Intergalactic Janitor
Intergalactic Janitor



Posts : 14
Joined: 3 FEB 2005

Status : Online
Originally Posted By Agustin (6 FEB 2005 12:49am)
2) You asked me to explain why I think Anchorhead is better than some Infocom games. I don't think it's better than The Lurking Horror, but I do think it's better than Moonmist, which is also suspense, and I gave a number of reasons why.
Though it's not really fair to compare one of the worst Infocom adventures to one of the best freeware ones. And Howard does have a point in that the REALLY good IF freeware games are far and few. Granted, stuff like Photopia is nice and all, but it's not really a game per se. And for every Curses and Ballerina there are about 50 horrible, 20 average and maybe 5 good games out there.

I dunno about the quality of Howards games, though. They don't sound too intruiging... at least for like $40 including shipping and stuff (yeah, I could just get the download version, but if I bought them, I'd take the boxed version). That's pretty steep, considering new full price titles are in the same range. Though his next project (The First Mile) sounds kinda sexy... I'm a sucker for horror games.

Profile Search
15 FEB 2005 at 10:49pm

Stalker

Intergalactic Janitor
Intergalactic Janitor



Posts : 14
Joined: 3 FEB 2005

Status : Online
Well, after playing Azteca, honestely, I'm not too amazed. Granted, it was free and stuff, but the quality didn't really encourage me to buy any of the other games - if a room description (which are generally rather short in the game) uses a whole sentence to tell me there's a lit incense burner, it's really bad form to not actually include a burner among the items in the room. And "smell" tells me that I smell nothing unexpected. Hrmph.

Same with tons of other non-implemented objects. Or in the calendar room, where the description of the wheel says the usual "You see nothing special".

And this one:
An ornate receptacle sits at the foot of the altar.

>x receptacle
As sacred as the techcatl itself, this medium-sized ornate box would hold the human hearts and blood which would then be offered as sacred food to the gods.

>look in box
You cannot see inside, since the sacred cuauhxicalli is closed.

>open box
The receptacle is already open; it doesn't have a lid.


Also, some things don't really gel - when you try to return from the second room (when it's still dark), you learn the exit is sealed. Though the door only falls close after you turn on your flashlight.

And that's just the beginning of the game. I gave up after 45 minutes - still with only 10 points - because the puzzles weren't exactly well clued in or even obvious - and in the cases they were, the parser was giving me nightmares. Take the scuff marks - something is obviously going on with either the wall or the statue, but the statue has "You see nothing special", the wall is neither pushable nor can you closer examinate it, because all "x stones" gives you is a repeat of the wall description. And the three-turns-homage-or-die room is similar - the throne has a jaguar head and tail, but those don't seem to be implemented. The statue has a spear and a closed fist, but you can't examine either of them further.

I mean, come on - those are really basic problems that any decent beta-tester should stumble over. Howard, I suggest that you give Azteca an overhaul and find better beta-testers - whoever you used for Azteca wasn't really competent. Check out the IF Newgroups if you don't know where to find them.

Profile Search
24 FEB 2005 at 12:22am

HowardS

Space Cadet
Space Cadet



Posts : 103
Joined: 10 DEC 2002

Status : Online

I mean, come on - those are really basic problems that any decent beta-tester should stumble over. Howard, I suggest that you give Azteca an overhaul and find better beta-testers - whoever you used for Azteca wasn't really competent. Check out the IF Newgroups if you don't know where to find them.


First let me thank you for pointing out some bugs.  Amazingly, the game was play tested quite a bit and has been enjoyed by hundreds of people at this point.  Astonishingly, none of them brought to light the things you did in your post. I've made a number of corrections thanks to you and Azteca Release 2 is now available. Bravo, sir! I'd like to sign you up to beta test The First Mile when the time comes. Seriously.

With regard to the missing descriptions for the Jaguar and the Calendar Stone, I'm a bit miffed.  The descriptions were there right where I left them but a small missing "hook" didn't display the descriptions when the items were examined. The ornate receptacle is now open and not closed and the player will find the door slammed shut at the right time. By golly, the smell of incense can even be detected!

The lack of a spear or fist description when examined is not a bug per se, but I found the addition of a spear description as helpful to the game and, thanks to you, I turned it into a sort of hint. Many players the world over will silently be thanking you in the days ahead. <grin>

Please email me privately so I can formally place you on one of my beta test teams for The First Mile.  Did I mention I'm not kidding?

Unfortunately, bugs are a part of life that we cannot escape. Every product has bugs. I am no less guilty of this than anyone else.

Here are some relevant examples:

Zork 2, to this day, has bugs in its.

Zork:The Undiscovered Underground has a bug that can place the game in an unwinnable state. (Remember, this game was written by TWO Implementers and is tiny by IF standards)

Other Infocom titles had release numbers as high as 86 representing all the different bugs that were corrected over the years in later versions.

Let's remind the audience that at its height, Infocom had a team of game testers on the payroll whose only mission in life was to find anything and everything wrong with Infocom games. Should they all have been fired?

I think I made my point but to really slam the lid on this subject once and for all I shall continue.

Stephen King has made so many mistakes in his books that some fans make a hobby out of tracking them all. Stop and consider that an army of people get a Stephen King book published. Certainly, his books are edited by professionals.  Do you think we should send them alll packing?
Visit http://www.bloopsnblunders.com/ to see what I mean

BBC News reported last month that a 12 year old boy in England found several mistakes in the Encyclopedia Britannica.  Pretty amazing, isn't it?
Read the piece at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4209575.stm

Not to limit this discussion to mere words, let me turn to the movie world for a moment...

The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King Bloopers Page
64 interesting and eye-opening bloopers have been unearthed in this epic movie. Is it your position that amateurs could have done a better job of putting together this blockbuster movie?
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film2746

 
The Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers Bloopers Page
Many (and I do mean many!) bloopers were discovered in this film - 221 goofs to be exact! Read all about them here and ask how yourself how so many mistakes could be possible when the film/production crew consisted of hundreds of people. Wow!
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film2638

The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring.
You'll find an entry for this movie at moviemistakes.com also but here's my personal favorite:

During the scene with Sam and Frodo in the field with the scarecrow, you can plainly see a MOVING CAR cruisng by in the distance.  Was that the magic of Gandalf or the goof of the editing and production crew?

Time for me to get back to The First Mile.  Some seriously spooky things are going on in Dead Rock.

Howard Sherman
Implementor
http://www.malinche.net

 

Join the Text Adventure Game Renaissance! Visit http://www.malinche.net

Profile Search
3 MAR 2005 at 5:06am

JE

Intergalactic Janitor
Intergalactic Janitor



Posts : 58
Joined: 20 JUN 2003

Status : Online
There's little value in spilling out a whole bunch of anecdotal "errors" that anyone could find with a few minutes with Google. Any undertaking of any size - be it a novel or a movie - is going to have a few inconsistencies in it, or a few things that went unnoticed at the time. Someone could probably find "errors" in any movie or book.

The same goes for games. Almost every major game has its share of things that don't get caught at the testing stage. That's why there are patches and updates and whatever. The point is that, aside of the really terrible games that are labeled truly "buggy", any bugs in the games are minor enough that the average player probably won't encounter or at least not be troubled by them.

The point being made here is that your games are QUITE noticeably buggier than most decent free games. :-/ Sorry.

Profile Search
9 MAR 2005 at 1:15am

HowardS

Space Cadet
Space Cadet



Posts : 103
Joined: 10 DEC 2002

Status : Online
Originally Posted By JE (3 MAR 2005 5:05am)
There's little value in spilling out a whole bunch of anecdotal "errors" that anyone could find with a few minutes with Google. Any undertaking of any size - be it a novel or a movie - is going to have a few inconsistencies in it, or a few things that went unnoticed at the time. Someone could probably find "errors" in any movie or book.

The same goes for games. Almost every major game has its share of things that don't get caught at the testing stage. That's why there are patches and updates and whatever. The point is that, aside of the really terrible games that are labeled truly "buggy", any bugs in the games are minor enough that the average player probably won't encounter or at least not be troubled by them.

The point being made here is that your games are QUITE noticeably buggier than most decent free games. :-/ Sorry.


No, I am the one that is sorry.  I feel sorry for you as I watch you continue to further a hidden agenda that has no appreciable value and embarass yourself in the process.

First you attempt to dismiss the facts that don't serve your purposes, then you minimze the ones you cannot dismiss and then you re-introduce the exact same underlying concept in a different light to erroneously conclude you are right, when you clearly aren't.

For the record, nothing I presented was Googled and I wouldn't call 221 mistakes in a single movie "a few inconsistencies". I won't even waste any more of my time carving up all the other things that are incorrect in your post.

Have the last word if you like because your last one will be as empty as your first.

Howard Sherman
Implementor
http://www.malinche.net

Join the Text Adventure Game Renaissance! Visit http://www.malinche.net

Profile Search
16 MAR 2005 at 1:52pm

JE

Intergalactic Janitor
Intergalactic Janitor



Posts : 58
Joined: 20 JUN 2003

Status : Online
Wow, I just read this now. I can only assume you're replying to me since you quoted me although it doesn't seem like my post you're talking about.

Howard, there's no need to get so upset or to react so badly to criticism. Getting upset and personal on a public bulletin board of all things makes you sound more like a guy in his basement than the "real game company" you might rather appear as. Everyone has to learn from their mistakes. There's nothing wrong with criticism. I sincerely hope it helps you make better games in the future.



Profile Search

    Page 2 of 2 : «

Jump to:
0 Members Subscribed To This Topic