| 18 OCT 2002 at 10:46pm |
MaciekIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Maciek: Reviews are always someone's personal opinion. And some will be written by idiots. There's nothing you can do about it so you just might as well learn to live with it
Yes, I know - this is what I've written above. The problem I see is that they are opinions not about the product, but about reviewer's feelings. Obviously, the feelings can be sometimes the part of the review, but the reviewers should remember that the product is the subject of the review, not the reviewer himself. This is similar to the interview, where the host talks more than guest, and offers more own opinions than the person who is interviewed.
Anyway, I've learned to live with the reviews, I've been reading reviews of my works for last 11 years.
Maciej Miasik&&[url]www.detalion.com[/url]
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| 18 OCT 2002 at 11:57pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Everyone above has pretty much made the points I was going to make.
But one thing I would point out is that probably no other example of reviewer bias stands out more than how misleading and unfair reviewers were when it came to the original Myst. Here was a game that sold beyond the developers' wildest dreams for reasons that became obvious later: it provided a relaxing, challenging, rewarding and (at that time) innovative experience that could be enjoyed by both genders and all ages. Yet, it became the game that reviewers loved to bash.
The fact is that even though I've been heavy into the latest graphic-intensive Adventure games and 3D CPU-demanding action games, Myst remains one of my all-time favorite game experiences.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 6:36am |
PCG_ChuckIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Actually, Marc, this isn't quite true. While we do have regular columnists that are experts in their particular genre, the PC Gamer staff enjoys a variety of different types of games.
For example, I write the "Killing Box" column -- the one that focuses mainly on first-person shooters -- but I was practically weaned on adventure games. I also play RPGs, strategy games, action games, MMORPGs, arcade games, god games, and even some sims. Being a well-rounded gamer is invaluable to understanding the industry as a whole and where it's headed.
I'd hate to think that one of my adventure game reviews was deemed less credible just because I'm the "Killing Box guy", for example.
Chuck Osborn
Features Editor
PC Gamer
Originally Posted By gameguy2003 (16 OCT 2002 4:31pm)
Thanks for the reply. That's a good point.
But magazines like PC Gamer will have one strategy dude, one action reviewer, one RPG fanatic, etc. so it's more fair than a jack-of-all-trades who may not know his RTS from his TBS.
You're right, though -- why hire a sports journalist to review Syberia?
Thanks!
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 3:08pm |
gameguy2003Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Thanks for the post, Chuck -- and clarification!
I know some guys somewhat *specialize* like Trotter and war games and Mahood for racing titles, etc., no?
But I agree -- it's not like someone who prefers one game over another *isn't* capable of writing about multiple genres (myself included) but I think adventure gamers feel they often get the shaft from writers who don't have the interest or patience to click through a 30-hour dialogue- or puzzle-based adventure.
Marc
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 3:24pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi all,
I read reviews. Since I don't generally buy computer gaming magazines, I read the reviews at Gamespot, Gamespy, Just Adventure and (sometimes) the reviews in adventure game forums. I think the reviews at Gamespot are great. Gamespy is also good. The problem is that they don't review enough adventure games. If it's a well written review, I can figure out if I am going to like the game, even if the reviewer didn't like the game. Given that some folks from the other magazines post here, I'll give other sources, such as PC Gamer, a try. PC Gamer is agood magazine. Are there any other good review sources I should try?
I know that many game developers don't like reviews. I sympathize, I don't know if I'd like it myself, but I like to read reviews from sources other than developers and fans. I also read reviews of art, movies, music, literature and concerts. With a good review, even it you don't agree with the conclusions you can figure out if you are going to like what's being reviewed.
All for now.
Regards, mszv
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 3:52pm |
AdsoIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 16
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By gameguy2003 (19 OCT 2002 3:07pm)
But I agree -- it's not like someone who prefers one game over another *isn't* capable of writing about multiple genres (myself included) but I think adventure gamers feel they often get the shaft from writers who don't have the interest or patience to click through a 30-hour dialogue- or puzzle-based adventure.
Marc
Wow, so many luminaries here today! I think Marc has hit upon the crux of my personal problem with Adventure game reviews. I tend to stick to the reviews of JA and a few others. For one thing, you know they played the game to the end-- no matter how long, conversational, or linear the game may be. They're quite honest and fair about the games they review. If you look at the reviews page, there aren't that many A's. They take bad games to task and celebrate the gems. This usually gives me my starting point. Once I'm intrigued about a game I may look at other sites. This thread has given me some new places to look (THANKS to those who posted other sites they trust). I will almost never look at print reviews since they tend to bash my favorite genre.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.&&&&Sir Winston Churchill
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 6:32pm |
PCG_ChuckIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Sure, William Trotter IS the Desktop General. He writes the definitive (well, at least to us -- we're biased) column on the subject of hardcore wargaming, so he's also the first choice to review those games. The funny thing is, if you go back through the years of PC Gamer reviews, you'll find that Trotter has scored all sorts of games for the magazine -- RTS, adventure, puzzle, etc. -- and not just wargames.
The same goes for Andy Mahood. He writes our sim column and, because he's a former racecar driver, is our first choice to review hardcore racing games. But he also loves flight sims and even some games that aren't "simmy".
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that we have a few "experts" in the stable. But we don't have just "one strategy dude, one action reviewer, one RPG fanatic", etc.
As for your point about adventure game reviews -- absolutely! If a reviewer has no interest in a genre, he has no business reviewing it. But that also doesn't mean that you have to only live and breathe adventure games in order to review them. I've noticed that some hardcore adventure fanatics behave like starving men who've just been handed a cracker everytime a new adventure title comes out -- no matter how bad the writing, the plot, the implementation, etc., it's wonderful simply because it's an adventure game.
But just so everyone knows, if you see an adventure review written by me, I played the game **and** finished it.
Chuck Osborn
Features Editor
PC Gamer
Originally Posted By gameguy2003 (19 OCT 2002 3:07pm)
Thanks for the post, Chuck -- and clarification!
I know some guys somewhat *specialize* like Trotter and war games and Mahood for racing titles, etc., no?
But I agree -- it's not like someone who prefers one game over another *isn't* capable of writing about multiple genres (myself included) but I think adventure gamers feel they often get the shaft from writers who don't have the interest or patience to click through a 30-hour dialogue- or puzzle-based adventure.
Marc
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| 19 OCT 2002 at 9:59pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | PCG_Chuck said "I've noticed that some hardcore adventure fanatics behave like starving men who've just been handed a cracker everytime a new adventure title comes out -- no matter how bad the writing, the plot, the implementation, etc., it's wonderful simply because it's an adventure game. "
I agree. I love adventure games, but I'm a bit leery of games being reviewed by adventure game fans. Since fans (myself included) so much want to play adventure games, I think we are often more charitable to a game than the game deserves. We also don't always like it when the game veers away from the "tried and true" adventure game formula. Sometimes it's nice to get a review from someone who writes reviews for a living.
Regards, mszv
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| 21 OCT 2002 at 5:00pm |
Adventure_LoverIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 1
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Maciek (18 OCT 2002 9:51pm)
The problem for me that nowadays everyone feels entitles to write the review and share this review with the world. Also, writing the reviews, arbitrary judging other people's works, gives the reviewers incredible feeling of power, not available in real life.
I'm glad you mentioned this, Maciek. An interesting social/cultural/internet phenomenom occurred last year when Electronic Arts released a forum board to accompany their online game, "Majestic". Without getting into the pros and cons of that game, (that's not what this thread is about) I felt that what helped to contribute to the demise and subsequent withdrawal by EA was not so much that anyone could bash it on the forum, it was that "Majestic" was being bashed by players of a competing online game that had been released right before "Majestic" was. Those particular forum posters elected themselves to be the "true" and "ennobled" reviewers of online gaming and they bragged on the forum that *they* were part of a game that was much more intelligent and cunning and mysterious than "Majestic" could ever hope to be. This might have been true. BUT, for those forum bashers to go to a competitor's forum board singularly to trash and to bash - as they did for several weeks - just so that a game can fall to its knees, is quite sad, actually, and shows that although freedom of speech should always be protected, free speech does not prevent ethical behavior from being compromised.
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| 21 OCT 2002 at 8:50pm |
RaySorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Location: US, CA
Status : Offline | First of all, Marc and Chuck, it's so good to see you posting here -- I can feel our classiness level rising even as we speak. I do hope you'll visit often. (The checks are in the mail and I promise they won't bounce this time.)
Me? I TOTALLY depend on reviews. With so many games coming out, and now that I'm playing -- and reviewing -- games on FIVE different systems, I've got to have some filter when it comes to games I pick for my pleasure.
If a game I'm interested in -- say, Diggles -- starts getting nothing but lousy reviews, I can take if off of my wish list without feeling I've missed something. On the other hand, when everyone goes crazy about a game that otherwise wouldn't even register on my radar -- can you say "Sly Cooper" -- then I am determined to get my mitts on it.
I always find it odd when people sniff and say, "I think you should decide for yourself." It's not about deciding for yourself. When it comes to games and movies, everyone develops opinions all the time as to what new offerings he or she is likely to like. Not one person I've ever met who has fed me the "decide for yourself" line forces him/herself to sit through each new Pauly Shore movie, so they can "decide" for themselves whether it's good or not. Likely they decide well ahead of time and don't bother with the movie. Games are the same way. Unless you play ONLY one genre, it's virtually impossible to play EVERY game that comes out.
I also think that reviewers that are too nice lose their usefulness. If I go to a site and see, gee, they like everything, then I don't visit that site much.
The fact is, it's a very arrogant position to state that your game is worth $20, $30, $40 or more of a consumer's money. You need to have a good game to back up such arrogance. And if you're going to put yourself out there and claim that you're giving value for that money, you must be prepared for your work to be assessed in a public arena. Games aren't causes, or charities. They're business propositions. Even the garage games.
Personally, I depend on reviews I read here, as well as GameSpot, GameSpy, Adrenaline Vault, PC Gamer, Computer Gaming World, and other publications.
Hey Marc, I met you with Cindy, two E3s ago I think. BTW, you got hilariously badmouthed at this past E3, in a book they handed out with the bags. It's a book by one of your countrymen all about the game industry, and it includes interviews with professionals in all areas of the business. One was a freelance writer -- sorry I can't remember his name. When asked what his advice was to young would-be freelance game writers, he said, "Give up. There are hardly any good gigs, and Marc Saltzman already has them all."
Remember, procrastinate now. Don't put it off!!
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| 21 OCT 2002 at 9:10pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ray (21 OCT 2002 8:50pm)
I always find it odd when people sniff and say, "I think you should decide for yourself."
I don't see what's odd about it. I'd certainly say that people should decide for themselves. But before they make the decision they should gather at least some information - and reviews are a very good source of such information.
For me "decide for yourself" means that you should not let one website/magazine/whatever guide whay you play/watch/read/listen to. Life isn't that easy
I forgot my sig.
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| 21 OCT 2002 at 9:32pm |
gameguy2003Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Thanks for the post. And for your insightful opinion on this subject, especially given your position in the industry.
Yes, I saw what was written about me in that book given away at E3! The comment was from Shawn Conlin, a freelance writer in Alberta. Great guy! I actually took it as a compliment! I'm not ashamed to say I work hard at getting writing gigs! ;-)
Marc
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| 23 APR 2004 at 10:25pm |
Goddess of All Things MagicalSchattenjger
Posts : 1565
Joined: 27 MAY 2003
Status : Online | USEFUL: I like the places that give screenshots or run a few minutes of the game. Believe it or not, I can tell if I'll like it. If I can barely see what is in the screenshot , then I know that I don't want to go there. If it looks like it has a non-descript 3D world or characters, I don't want to go there either.
Also, I take seriously what JA'ers say about games, although we do have our differing opinions.
You guys have almost made me want to try out Planescape Torment.
I actually go to many places for game reviews: Mr. Bill's Adventureland, A for Adventure, 4 Fat Chicks, Underdogs , Moby, Pagoda.
&&&&Listening to XM Radio Starbucks Cafe Channel 45&&[IMG]http://img227.echo.cx/img227/8458/dancelikenooneiswatching6ld.png[/IMG]
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| 23 APR 2004 at 11:34pm |
| Deleted User | I've been into adv games for about 2 years, have played more than 30, and recently went on a eBay blitz of buying about 40 more (tax refund!).
I rely a great deal on reviews if they tell me what I'm looking for. Adv games are about story and puzzles - if a reviewer tells me that there were too many puzzles, or too difficult ones, then I have to get another review to check out, because it tells me this reviewer doesn't usually play adventures. The same thing happens when the reviewer says it is too slow moving or it's too linear, since adv games are dependent upon a good story, which is by necessity linear. Yes, there may be subplots that can be taken out of order in some games, but they all must start and finish at the same point. When a reviewer criticizes these things, I question whether he/she understands the concept of an adv game. Another is when they criticize for lack of action sequences. Dyed-in-the-wool adv gamers avoid action sequences, as a whole, because they favor a more thoughtful approach to gaming, rather than a "see-how-many-you-can-kill" approach.
Given all of that, if the reviewer seems to understand the concept, and actually plays adv games, then I will accept the review as valid, and give some thought to what has been said. I find that I believe more reviews from the adv sites, than the many gaming magazines, simply because the focus of the mags seems to be toward the gaming masses, ie. the 14-24 years old males, few of whom recognize the lure of the non-action game. That said, my favorite reviewers online are Ray Ivey and Jim Saighman, both of whom use humor and a tremendous amount of background knowledge to support their opinions.
FGM
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| 24 APR 2004 at 2:30am |
DJ SouzaJourneyman
Posts : 1452
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I like to read detailed info concerning the gameplay, and I don't like to read plot spoilers.
Reviews don't really influence on my decision to buy or not to buy a game, because I usually only read a review AFTER I played the game (I have read too many spoilers already, I decided not to read reviews before playing a game or watching a movie).
I usually make my decision based on PREVIEWS of the game, I read a lot of previews in JA+, AdventureGamers and The Inventory.
I must say that there is one case when I read a review BEFORE buying the game. When there is a game I am not particulary interested to play, I might feel the need to read a review and see if my opinion remains the same.
[center]DIEGO J. SOUZA&&Consulting Detective for Hire[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/YaBBImages/smilies//detective.gif[/img]&&&&[img]http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Fairygdmther/Avatars/A-G-E-S_SIG.jpg[/img][/center]
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| 24 APR 2004 at 2:32am |
| Deleted User | Thank you, FGM. I duz me best.
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| 24 APR 2004 at 5:24am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | What!? You mean game reviews aren't written by bots?
All (stupid) kidding aside:
I read everything I can get my hands on if I have heard about an Adventure game I am interested in. All the sites, magazines, and reviewers mentioned here previously get my attention - time permitting.
Thank you all for filling us in about games!
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 24 APR 2004 at 8:14am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Fairygdmther (23 APR 2004 11:34pm)
The same thing happens when the reviewer says it is too slow moving or it's too linear, since adv games are dependent upon a good story, which is by necessity linear.
Some stories are linear, some are not. Linearity is not a hard and fast rule, and it's not black-or-white. Not in books, not in films, not in games.
But I don't know of any game reviewers out there who view linearity as a label of the story. They use it in relation to gameplay. How much freedom does the player have to explore, to work on different puzzles.
With linear exploration and linear problemsolving Hamlet: A Murder Mystery) puzzles should not be too hard and the actions to trigger new evens not too obscure or people will lose interest because they're already stuck at the beginning. With non-linear exploration and linear problemsolving (Rose Tattoo, Last Express) they complain they've been wandering around for hours looking for something to do. Non-linear games (DOTT, Dark Fall) run the risk of not rewarding the player enough for solving problems, but they are my favorites.
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| 24 APR 2004 at 1:52pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Betje (24 APR 2004 8:14am)
Some stories are linear, some are not. Linearity is not a hard and fast rule, and it's not black-or-white. Not in books, not in films, not in games.
But I don't know of any game reviewers out there who view linearity as a label of the story. They use it in relation to gameplay. How much freedom does the player have to explore, to work on different puzzles.
With linear exploration and linear problemsolving (Hamlet: A Murder Mystery) puzzles should not be too hard and the actions to trigger new evens not too obscure or people will lose interest because they're already stuck at the beginning. With non-linear exploration and linear problemsolving (Rose Tattoo, Last Express) they complain they've been wandering around for hours looking for something to do. Non-linear games (DOTT, Dark Fall) run the risk of not rewarding the player enough for solving problems, but they are my favorites.
While what you say is true, the majority of adv games are linear in the flow of the game. I don't object to non-linearity, my reference was toward the reviewers who complain about a game being too linear, and this tells me they are not adv game fans, so they lose validity in my eyes as a reviewer. In other words, how can you criticize a game for being linear, when its genre is steeped in linearity. To me that's like criticizing a FPS for all the killing. If you know the genre, then you know what comprises the majority of the games in content.
FGM
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| 24 APR 2004 at 1:54pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By BacardiJim (24 APR 2004 2:31am)
Thank you, FGM. I duz me best.
Wait! You forgot to scuff the toe of your shoe in the dirt, and say "Aw, shucks..."
FGM
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| 24 APR 2004 at 9:04pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ray (21 OCT 2002 8:50pm)
I always find it odd when people sniff and say, "I think you should decide for yourself." It's not about deciding for yourself. When it comes to games and movies, everyone develops opinions all the time as to what new offerings he or she is likely to like.
A good review can provide enough information about a game that the reader can get a pretty good idea whether or not they'd enjoy a game. Certainly they'd have a better idea than if they went by looking at the game box. The only person who can make the decision on whether the game is worth their money or not is the reader, so they have to "decide for themselves."
Hopefully a review will help them make the best choice before they spend their money. But when I first started playing computer games, I was often steered toward games I ended up not liking by reviews on general game sites. I was also steered away from games I ended up enjoying once I played them. Of course now I know what to look for in a review. I don't go by the final grade and take the reviewer's opinion under advisement.
I also think that reviewers that are too nice lose their usefulness. If I go to a site and see, gee, they like everything, then I don't visit that site much.
Again, it would depend on how much information was given in the review that is not opinion-based. For example, if the game tends to be buggy and hotspots go dead, or if the conversations tend to play out of sequence so you don't get clues when you should, that is not an opinion. If you are limited as to where you can save the game, that is not an opinion. If you can't skip cut scenes, that is not an opinion. If the game frequently kills off your character without warning, that is not an opinion. So it doesn't matter if the reviewer thinks these things don't detract from the game and gives it an A rating. As long as the reviewer mentions them, and I know they're there, I can decide for myself if these "features" (and others) would annoy me too much to make the game worth my time.
The final grade is probably going to be heavily influenced by how much the reviewer enjoyed the game, so that is going to be useless unless the reader shares the same likes and dislikes as the reviewer. One person's "challenging" is another person's "frustrating" or "impossibly difficult." That's why it's a good idea to find a reviewer who shares the same likes and dislikes as you do. Not only will the final grade be closer the mark, but that reviewer is more apt to mention things that are apt to annoy you, but might not bother someone else. But even if the reviewer doesn't share your likes and dislikes, a good review will say enough about the game that you can form some opinion about whether or not the game is something you might enjoy.
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| 24 APR 2004 at 11:00pm |
DJ SouzaJourneyman
Posts : 1452
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The final grade is probably going to be heavily influenced by how much the reviewer enjoyed the game, so that is going to be useless unless the reader shares the same likes and dislikes as the reviewer. I think that the influence of personal opinions is no obstacle IF the reviewer says what he likes or dislikes in the game. I don't think I should look for a person with similar tastes as my own, as long as the reviewer makes his reasons very clear, the reader should know why he liked or disliked a game.
For example, when reading reviews about The Longest Journey, I often found personal opinions saying that players will get bored with the long dialogues. I know that I like to hear dialogues in adventures very much, so I knew I was going to enjoy that part.
When reading about Syberia, I often found personal opinions saying that players wouldn't enjoy the lack of challenging puzzles. I was OK with that, so I didn't let the reviewer's personal opinions get in my way of enjoying the game.
In the end, I only need to know what are MY personal preferences, knowing what the reviewer likes is optional for me. If the review is clear and well writen, it shouldn't be hard to find out what are the reviewer's preferences.
[center]DIEGO J. SOUZA&&Consulting Detective for Hire[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/YaBBImages/smilies//detective.gif[/img]&&&&[img]http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Fairygdmther/Avatars/A-G-E-S_SIG.jpg[/img][/center]
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