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| 30 NOV 2002 at 8:07pm |
MichaelIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hey all,
I am ever so sorry to say it, but I am hoping and wishing that Gabriel Knight will die a horrible death.
This may contain some slight spoliers for the end of GK3.
Do I hate Gabe? Not at all. Gabriel Knight 1-3 are my favorite adventure games. Honestly though, if Gabriel Knight 4 were to be released and it was the final episode, how would you picture the ending? Gabriel and Grace, having made up, walking away in the sunset? This isn't how Jane works. Every Gabriel Knight has had a sad ending, and it would feel very cheap if the series ended on a happy note.
Don't think me to be a negative person. I just know that a sad ending holds much more power than a sappy one. Thinking back, what adventure games have had the best endings? The Last Express, Grim Fandango, Full Throttle and of course GK 1-3 are some of the few. And what do all these endings have in common? There is a sad, somewhat tragic element in each one. Someone leaving, someone dying, war breaking out, ect. So, before getting to Gabe's horrible death, lets establish the fact that the ending of the GK series would be much more powerful with a tragic ending. Jane would never dream of having Gabe and Grace living "happily ever after".
Now killing off Gabriel Knight is the only satisfactory ending I can think of for the series. If Gabe doesn't die, we will always wonder what happened next and so on. Of course, his death would be grand and magnificant. He would sacrafice himself to save someone (maybe Grace...and her baby?) or a large group of people. It would wrap up the games quite nicely, for Gabe is pretty damn selfish in all 3 episodes. If he sacraficed himself for others, this would show he truely had changed.
Wolfgang died after 3 quests...maybe Gabe will do the same. Jane has provided a way for the Ritter bloodline to live on, through the possible child that Grace might have. These things seem to point to a very possible death to our hero.
This is just my opinion, but seriously, how else could it possibly end? The GK series holds many gothic elements. Gabe is equal to the "other", a type of character who is always alone and can never be truely happy until their inevitable death. The similarities are there. I also have a feeling that Jane has the whole story planned out, and she knows and always has known what will happen to every character. With the darkness in each of the games, I see Gabe's death very clearly. It would also be very interesting to play an adventure game where the main character actually dies. Has there ever been a game like this?
Oh, and please don't think I want the series to end. I want Gabriel Knight to go on as long as possible, but when we do actually play the FINAL game, this is how I hope it all ends.
-Michael
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 8:26pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Dude, you're taking the games too seriously
How about even darker ending: Gabriel fails to do whatever he is supposed (or fails to do it right) to do and someone else (Grace?) dies and Gabriel is forever plagued by guilt. How's that for a tragic ending?
But there's a problem with bad endings in a game. They're not terribly satisfying. Players need some sense of accomplishment and I'm not sure self-sacrifice cuts it. I mean, who wants to spend hours and hours playing a game that has a bad ending?
I forgot my sig.
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 8:37pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Michal, needing someone to talk to?
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 8:52pm |
MichaelIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well...I am writing this under the impression that Jane would MAKE IT a satisfying ending. I have confidence that she would be able to do it. Any other game designer, probably not. But I think Jane could make it work. And MichalN, it is fun to discuss adventure games in a serious way.
Grace dying? Maybe...after she gives birth to the next Shadow Hunter. Like I said, Jane has everything laid out. Gabe and Grace sleeping together at the end of GK3 probably has some huge signifigance...
Think about the end of Armageddon. Not a great movie, but I felt that it had an ending that was sad, yet happy. Bruce Willis dies, but he saved the world in doing so. It was still satisfying.
Gabe's death probably wouldn't save the world, but something along those lines would be nice.
I also think Harry Potter should die in the last book. Hehe!
-Michael
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 8:59pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Gamaholic (30 NOV 2002 8:37pm)
Michal, needing someone to talk to?
Sure, why?
I forgot my sig.
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 9:04pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Michael (30 NOV 2002 8:52pm)
Well...I am writing this under the impression that Jane would MAKE IT a satisfying ending. I have confidence that she would be able to do it. Any other game designer, probably not. But I think Jane could make it work.
I have to agree with you on this
And MichalN, it is fun to discuss adventure games in a serious way.
So it's fun to suggest to have someone killed, huh? Young people these days...
Grace dying? Maybe...after she gives birth to the next Shadow Hunter. Like I said, Jane has everything laid out.
That's what I think too. She had probably everything planned out before GK1 was even released.
Gabe's death probably wouldn't save the world, but something along those lines would be nice.
Gabriel could save the world from a danger that the world isn't aware of.
I also think Harry Potter should die in the last book. Hehe!
Heh, the "last book" might take a while. Too much money there
I forgot my sig.
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 10:55pm |
| Deleted User | I agree with you, although I think letting Gabriel die would be taking it too far. After all, we still want to be able to hope for sequels, don't we. But you're right in the sense that it's much more evocative to have a bitter-sweet ending of sorts. The "and they lived happily ever after" ending may satisfy you for the moment, but a truly evocative ending stays with you for much longer. Like the Grey Havens in Lord of the Rings, or the ending to Watership Down by Michael Ende (I don't remember it exactly but there was death involved). An ending that says "time changes" and shows that the world is not the same after the adventure as it was before. The characters don't just return home and live like they did before. They have changed, become wiser, they look at the world with new eyes. Some things are lost, some things are preserved. That's the way to make a good ending!
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 11:18pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Game endings can be thought-provoking without being tragic. I wouldn't play a game where I knew GK or Grace was going to bite the big one in the end. Real life has enough disappointments and I sure don't need any more of them in my escapist pursuits.
I thought the ending of Black Dahlia stunk big time. How many people want to play a game knowing they're going to "lose" in the end no matter what they do?
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| 30 NOV 2002 at 11:48pm |
emmaPrivate Detective
Posts : 525
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I guess my romantic nerve, is dying to see a happy ending, where Gabe and Grace walk off into the sunset, hand in hand! But I agree, as a story, it is perhaps more "interesting" if something terrible happened.... :'( Either way! I will not have anybody making a thread where the heading is, "Gabe dies, what's up with that?" and ruin my experience.... *glares around menacingly*
[URL=http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=emma]My DVDs[/URL] | [URL=http://www.adventuregamers.com/]AdventureGamers[/URL] | I haven't lost my mind, I've got a backup on a disc somewhere.
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 1:26am |
ratracerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 41
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Ok, let Gabe die ... but not on GK4 but something like GK23 or GK58... I hope - although I think it's unlikely - to have a lot of GK games to play !!!
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 1:30am |
MichaelIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Jenny100 -
I see where your coming from. I can understand why the idea of Gabriel dying would turn people away. The way I am envisioning it, however, is an ending that is a mixture of tragedy and triumph. I think Jane would be able to make the ending amazing, and unforgettable. This is the only game series that I can see getting away with such an ending.
Spoilers for GK1 and GK2
I don't think you can "win" or "lose" in a GK game. These games are all about the story. You finish it...like a book. Yeah, they all have a point total that you aim to reach, but I am pretty sure that the point system is there just to ensure that you can get the entire story. If you miss something in the story, you will know because you are missing points. Anyways, at the end of GK1 Gabe has to, in a way, destroy the woman he loves (supposedly) to complete his quest. At the end of GK2, he has to kill an innocent man that he was quite fond of to complete his quest. These were things that Gabriel did not want to do, but the games still end. Did you lose? No. Gabe did what he had to.
End of GK?...Gabe has to sacrafice himself to complete his quest. He died, but did you lose? No. Gabe did what he had to do.
-Michael
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 1:32am |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | He has to live.......so the game can be continued. As long as they keep it point & click adventure. Look at all the movies that kept going....Jason, Freddy, Michael.....
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 2:44am |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Leaving aside Gabriel Knight for a moment, I don't think we should resist the idea that games could have tragic endings. The stories in books, plays and films can all have tragic endings, but not in games? Are we saying that stories in games should be more limited than in other media?
On another note, I believe the reason the Black Dahlia ending stank was because it was incredibly badly written, rather than because it was an unhappy ending.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 2:59am |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi all,
I regard the GK series as a series, similar to the mystery novel series that I occasionally read, or the television series that I watch on television. Series have different rules. Generally, you don't kill off your protagonist. You can, but you generally only kill a protagonist if you have a lot of them to go around. If you've got, oh, say 5 protagonists you can knock one off, but 2? I don't think so.
I also regard games more as popular entertainment or genre writing than literary fiction. They are games. That doesn't mean I don't expect them to be great. It does mean that I'm not as amenable to experiencing the same sort of thing in a game that I experience in a "deep" movie or a non-genre work of literature.
Darn, there was a few adventure game where a bad thing happened in the end, but I can't remember which ones, and it would probably be a spoiler to mention them. If I'm going to play them, I'd better have a lot of warning that things aren't going to work out well. Then I'll decide if I want to play.
Regards, mszv
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 7:43am |
MichaelIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Belinda48 (1 DEC 2002 1:32am)
He has to live.......so the game can be continued. As long as they keep it point & click adventure. Look at all the movies that kept going....Jason, Freddy, Michael.....
Gabriel Knight 12: Von Glower's Revenge!
UGH I hope that never happens...those Jason, Freddy and Michael sequels are all horrible, pointless blood baths. I have lost count on how many there are. The originals are always the best. The 8th Halloween movie came out this past summer...starring Busta Rhymes! It was REALLY good!!!
(sarcasm)
-Michael
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 12:00pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I can see it coming:
Gabriel Knight V - Resurrection
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 3:10pm |
AiRNESSIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 29 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I liked Michael's speculation.I think it's an issue for all GK lovers.But I'm not going to spoil my mind.I wouldn't ask my self for this subject a thing.Nop...I'll wait for the game (if GK4 will be out) and for the end of it, when I will buy it.After all I trust J.Jensen and I appreciate what she did about 1-1/5 months ago in GK forum community.
Akis and his AiRNESS
Akis, Adventure Advocate Editor-In-Chief&&The biggest adventure source in Greece&&www.adventure-advocate.gr
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 8:53pm |
BelindaSchattenjger
Posts : 2093
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Michael (1 DEC 2002 7:43am)
Gabriel Knight 12: Von Glower's Revenge!
UGH I hope that never happens...those Jason, Freddy and Michael sequels are all horrible, pointless blood baths. I have lost count on how many there are. The originals are always the best. The 8th Halloween movie came out this past summer...starring Busta Rhymes! It was REALLY good!!!
-Michael
Yes, the first originals are the best. But I always did like all the Halloween movies. That 8th one comes out on video this month, going to rent it. The Jason movies, after the first one, were boring. I loved the first Freddy movie, scary!!
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 11:16am |
SunshineSlayerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 10
Joined: 15 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I agree with Michael on this one. Just because it is a sad ending, doesn't mean that it is a bad one. The ending to Black Dahlia was just BAD, it didn't have much to do with the fact that it was an unhappy ending.
I do see this as being a possible ending for the GK series and possibly the most fitting. In each GK game there is a significant amount of character development for Gabe and Grace, and Gabe sacrificing himself in the end would make his character come full circle.
I also don't see Jane ending the series on a happy note. She seems to love those bitter-sweet endings.
~Christina
http://www.adventuregamers.com
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 12:47pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | MICHAEL MUST DIE!
[img]www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/crossbones.gif[/img] MICHAEL
 &&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 9:55pm |
MichaelIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jamarchand (2 DEC 2002 12:47pm)
MICHAEL MUST DIE!
[img]www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/crossbones.gif[/img] MICHAEL
Uh-oh...
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