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| 28 NOV 2002 at 6:16pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By CharlesCecil (28 NOV 2002 6:09pm)
The comment about point-and-click adventures being dead in commercially terms is, however, fact. A high production value adventure game is very expensive to produce and publishers are simply not prepared to fund them. Anyone who disagrees should take this up with the publishers. My comment about point-and-click adventures being dead in creative terms is wholly subjective. From a purely personal perspective, and having written seven adventures (over 15 years) that relied on the 'pick up object' / 'use this object on another object' / 'talk to someone' / 'combine objects', etc. I have found that the point-and-click genre is simply too constraining. With Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon, we first and foremost set out to try to identify what people liked about the adventure, and to expand it into a 3D environment with a contemporary interface.
You can't imagine how sorry I feel that I have a basketball training and I don't have time to write 10 pages about the subject. But I'll be back later tonight.
About the publishers issue ....where did the Microids people find publishers for their last two games I wonder. And Diamond also said that you were enjoying Syberia. How come? Doesn't it use a dead interface? I know this isn't the proper way to reply but I have to go.
I will give a more detailed reply later.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 6:19pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Btw you can also check out the poll for TLJ2 's interface and look what adventure gamers really want! But I guess the gaming industry is the only industry where....the customer is never right and has no opinion.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 6:21pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I'm so passionate about this that I'm willing to be late for my training. Diamond said in AG forums that you are designing the game with the joypad in focus. Can you tell me how many adventure gamers own a joypad? I don't think that there are many. Does this show us something?
And I would never be so passionate about it if you hadn't made such statements. This goes down to ethics. Burying other games, or other interfaces to promote your own is just not respectable at all. Especially when it comes from a style of gameplay that has given you the chance to talk in interviews and get this attention you are getting.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:09pm |
tonywIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 3
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (28 NOV 2002 6:21pm)
I'm so passionate about this that I'm willing to be late for my training. Diamond said in AG forums that you are designing the game with the joypad in focus. Can you tell me how many adventure gamers own a joypad? I don't think that there are many. Does this show us something?
We sold a huge number of Broken Sword 1 GBA games and in so doing introduced a great many new players to the 'adventure' genre. That was Broken Sword the Shadow of the Templars re-implemented on the GBA which uses a gamepad.
Now, is Broken Sword on the GBA an adventure game? We say it is.
*tony*
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:26pm |
MyriexIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 41
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi there Charles! Broken Sword 3 hit the front page in one of the two big PC gaming magazines here in Sweden this month. I think everything about the game, including the interface, sounds very promising!
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:33pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | I for one am reserving my judgement until I see the finished game.
You should do the same Dimitri.
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:35pm |
| Deleted User | Re-inventing adventure game interfaces has ALWAYS been very controversial. For some reason, adventure gamers seems to be very protective of the way their games work. I think this is fully legitimate, but I also believe you have made the right decision in trying something new with BS3. If this will bring back more attention to adventure games, while still not falling into the action/adventure trap (I think you'll succeed on both accounts) I support you all the way! Whether the attempt was successful or not is up to the audience to decide once the game has been released, but I will do my best to keep an open mind, although I too am very fond of the classic point-and-click genre.
I also love your effort to make GBA conversions of the old Broken Sword games. Finally we got a handheld that can give justice to traditional graphical adventure games. I'd love to see LucasArts and Sierra taking advantage of this too and release some of their classics in brand new versions. However, I'm kind of suspicious that you did this mostly as a way of promoting BS3 to console players who has not played the old games. I don't mind if you don't want to comment on that though... The idea is great anyway, and proves your point that a point-and-click interface really isn't necessary even with these games, although it was convenient in the original versions.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:35pm |
JoYSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 208
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Now, is Broken Sword on the GBA an adventure game? We say it is.
Yeah but on PC you could play games with one hand and eat potato-chips with the other!
For now I'm still looking forward to BS3... but I feel the succes of consoles has something to do with the switch to gamepads too?
JoY
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 7:57pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | We must maintain the elements that people love in an adventure game but keep driving the genre forward.
The same question I asked to Diamond (don't know his real name): Is it really necessary for adventure games to keep on-par with technology? I must say that, judging by some screenshots, the characters look pretty lifeless. Still, we have to wait to see them in action.
Also, making George and Nico jump'n run is an element of the adventure genre? If you manage to design clever puzzles by using these features, then the final result might be very interesting.
Being a loyal fan of *all* Revolution adventures, I really hope you will continue your devotion to the genre with BS3.
Like Michal said, we must wait for the finished game. But there are some serious doubts surrounding it.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 8:04pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | "But as technology advances, and new gameplay opportunities are made available, things move on. We must maintain the elements that people love in an adventure game but keep driving the genre forward. And we must keep an open mind. "
I would hope that advancements made in the design of adventure games attempt to stay within certain boundaries that IMHO are absolutes for most adventure aficiandos on this forum. First and foremost, I don't think any of us want to see what are essentially Action games called Adventure games. Even now, if I find that a so-called adventure game requires some sort of fighting action with a mouse or joypad, I grind it under my leather boot heel. I get plenty of action from Medal of Honor and Battlefield 1942!
On the other hand, if this has more to do with substituting joypad use for point & click especially when it allows games like Broken Sword to be ported to the Game Boy Advance, I don't have any problem with that.
All of that said, I think all of us hope that, although the 'big boys' need to keep moving ahead to reach a broader adventure game market, the 'little guys' will continue to make our treasured point & clickers like Rhem & Darkfall. The best of both worlds would be a good thing!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 9:11pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (28 NOV 2002 7:32pm)
I for one am reserving my judgement until I see the finished game.
It's important that the game be given a fair chance in this manner. If people decide that it's not for them and it doesn't sell, then we will have to think again. But we are convinced that this will not be the case.
We love adventures and want to make adventures that will make people sit up and take notice.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 9:17pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (28 NOV 2002 8:04pm)
On the other hand, if this has more to do with substituting joypad use for point & click especially when it allows games like Broken Sword to be ported to the Game Boy Advance, I don't have any problem with that.
It allows us to not only give more connectivity with the main character, but also develop across multiple platforms (PC, PS2, X-Box) without compromising the gameplay on any of the platforms.
There are a lot of gamers out there who would love to play adventures on the consoles. BS1 and 2 sold as many copies on Playstation as on PC, something that a lot of Adventure fans are unaware of.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 9:17pm |
nytimesguyPrivate Detective
Posts : 684
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Btw you can also check out the poll for TLJ2 's interface and look what adventure gamers really want! But I guess the gaming industry is the only industry where....the customer is never right and has no opinion.
Yes, a lot of adventure gamers want games to be exactly like they have been for years. But there aren't that many hardcore adventure gamers, so game developers can't be guided by their wishes. The idea is to create an adventure game that will draw in people who are not hardcore adventure gamers, and for that, new was of doing things and technology that keeps up with other genres is necessary. Attempts to use advanced technology don't always turn out that well - the last Monkey Island would have looked better with the previous one's 2D art - but there's no choice but to move forward. Other games are progressing with blinding speed, so even with adventure games occassionally trying to move a little ahead they are still falling further and further behind.
Charles - Game Theorist
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 9:37pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (28 NOV 2002 7:57pm)
...Diamond (don't know his real name)
I changed my profile.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 9:38pm |
AGStingerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 17
Joined: 16 NOV 2002
Status : Online | What a tragedy, for no less than three employees of one of the greatest adventure companies ever to become involved in a ridiculous argument against someone who refuses to accept any contrary viewpoints and repeatedly twists every word used against him.
Arguing with dimi is a lost cause; he has shown for months that he is a brainless obstacle to the progression of the genre. I admire you guys for still wanting to make the game after reading comments such as his; I assure you he is simply an overly vocal and self-obsessed minority.
I, personally, am a p&c purist, and I can not wait for Broken Sword 3, and anyone who can possibly criticize a game BEFORE EVEN PLAYING A DEMO should absolutely be ashamed.
- Evan
~/~ Evan Dickens ~\~&&AdventureGamers.com&&
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 10:35pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | :-* Stingy I love you man :-* :-* :-*
Honestly...I was tired from basketball and gym, and I come back home, my room is not so tidy, I have to tidy up tomorrow, generally my mood is not that good. And then I come in JA forums and I see your amusing posts. What would I do without you man. I hadn't laughed all day today.
Anyway...let's go to things that matter now...
Do I believe BS3 is going to be a crap game?
Yes
Am I ashamed for that?
No
Revolution is dead.
It has been dead since BS1, the last good adventure they made.
Sierra is dead.
Lucasarts is dead.
Those who haven't understood it yet you can go on and live in a dream. If calling action/adventures adventure games or transferring the games from point and click to direct control seem to you like advancing the genre, then you can still live in a dream.
George Stobbart is dead.
Roger Wilco is dead.
Sam and Max are dead also.
You can either move on or continue living in a dream. Or either you can start liking George Stobbarts, Guybrush Threepwoods and Roger Wilcos who jump, run, swim or Nicos and Elaines who have boobs bigger than Pamela Anderson's and asses tighter than Lara Croft, and they kick other women also in fights. I never will.
Is point and click dead?
I don't know. Ask Microids. Ask Gotgame and Dreamcatcher. Ask Moloto and Tierra.
Do they sell as much as action games?
No, maybe they never will.
Do I care?
No.
Am I going to buy BS3?
No.
Is BS3 in the front page of computer magazines in Sweden?
Maybe I haven't seen them. But why shouldn't it? Games where people can jump and swim and climb walls are usually in the front pages in Sweden.
Would I have written all that if Revolution had followed an ethical and respectable promotion strategy?
No I would actually not care at all. Anyway Revolution is dead. So is George Stobbart. So is Nico.
Am I a brainless obstacle to the progression of the genre as Stingy said?
If the progression of the genre means adventures like I described before, I actually wish I am.
Revolution is dead.
George Stobbart is dead.
Long live the adventure.
P.S. I would like to pinpoint a thread in AG again...
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3457&pagenumber=1
Second post from the end...and
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3457&perpage=20&pagenumber=2
fifth post from the end....it seems like I'm not the only one who loves Stingy. I love you Stingy!!!
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:03pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Uh-oh, another flame war
I would like to point something that I just realized (I kept thinking about this): Manny, April, Kate (take note, dimi) are characters that could run. And nobody complained about that. In most Sierra games you could swim. And there has been some adventures where jumping were required to solve puzzles. This is why I think there's still hope in BS3. As long as the whole game isn't based mostly in jumping and running, things might be OK.
Another point, which I don't remember if I mentioned earlier: Syberia could have been exactly the same game with a keyboard based interface. If this would've allowed this game to be ported to more systems, then it might have selled more copies (doesn't that sounds nice, dimi? ).
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:18pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Syberia is going to be ported to Playstation and then it will have a direct control ofcourse. No problem with that. They made the pc game with adventurers in mind. In playstation there is no mouse so they are going with direct control. That is absolutely fine.
What you think about Syberia is your personal opinion and I don't share it. For me Syberia was a pure adventure. If it wasn't for you then I can't do anything to change that.
Yes in the older Sierra games you used the keyboard. But then adventurers discovered that the mouse is much more efficient and comfortable to play their favourite games, and this is why we jumped to the mouse. I can totally understand that as evolution or innovation, because it facilitates quality of the game and user-friendliness.
Now why do some companies jump to direct control? Is it because it is more efficient or more comfortable, or better for adventure games, do they introduce new puzzles. No, no, no and no. And if any of the Revolution guys here thinks the opposite I would please like to hear a puzzle that they thought was great and logical with their direct control, and it couldn't be logical or great with the mouse control.
So why do we jump to direct control? To sell the game to the console market. Is this evolution and innovation in the adventure genre? And not only that, but the PC-gamers will also have to play with direct control with the joypad in focus, even if most of them don't own a joypad because they are a minority in terms of sales now. Ok then since I am a minority I hope you don't mind if I don't buy your game.
As I said before, what irritated me the most was Revolution's promotion strategy. I can't understand how it didn't irritate anybody else. So can we go and say whatever we want nowadays, buryign other products to hail our own?
Revolution is dead.
Sierra is dead.
Lucasarts is dead.
George Stobbart is dead.
Long live the adventure.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:22pm |
| Deleted User | "So can we go and say whatever we want nowadays"
A big, resounding YES. Charles is just as much entitled to his opinion as you are!
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:27pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | So you say Marek that to advertise my own product I can just bury the competitor's one.
So for example if Randy from JA or someone from Gameboomers came out and said "Adventure Gamers site is dead, they don't even have a third of our site visit count", in your opinion this would be allright and you would not say anything because Randy or the Gameboomers person is entitled to his/her opinion?
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:29pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Ofcourse Charles Cecil is entitled to his opinion. And he ofcourse could say that about point and click games. But since I am also entitled to my opinion, I can react to that. Right?
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:31pm |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, I'll venture my opinion.
The only reason that companies believe point-and-click games are 'dead' is because they don't want to make them. The ones that have been made recently have all done well. But more and more companies circle like vultures over whatever the 'kewl' fad is, dismiss anything else as dead, and turn their attention to renovating their ideals into new crap.
If companies were capable of looking past the end of their noses and over their profit sheets, they'd see just how the real world operates. Things don't just 'die' because they say so. No, in order for something to die, they have to kill it.
Revolution has managed to kill the Broken Sword series with this one, quite probably. Perhaps they'll realise this and go back to the classic style for Broken Sword 4.
Sierra, has also killed it's babies. Now, with the new Space Quest game, it's planning to dig them up and perform necrophilia. We can only hope that they change their minds before it defiles their reputation even further.
Lucasarts, while still maintaining a few vestages of hope, haven't given up yet. Perchance they'll work harder on their keyboard-interface 3D engine, iron out the flaws in it, and be able to hold up their ideals.
Games only 'die' when their companies decide to rape out all the essence of it, in order to line their pockets with the money of the masses. The times for making games for the sake of telling stories is over for them. BUT, it's not over for the many hundreds of small groups of developers who continue, even today, to stick to their guns and keep their dreams alive. That's how so many of our recent favourates have come to life, and that's how it will continue to be.
As for Broken Sword 3... I'll skip commenting until I've actually played it.
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:34pm |
| Deleted User | Your analogy is not correct.
Charles is saying that the point-and-click adventure is dead. He's talking about a gaming concept, not about a specific game. He is not attacking the competition at all, he is merely stating his opinion on a type of gameplay. I can understand that you disagree with that, but not why you are offended by it.
My comment however, was also on your lack of respect for other people's opinion. I'm sorry you did not see that.
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| 28 NOV 2002 at 11:41pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Marek (28 NOV 2002 11:34pm)
My comment however, was also on your lack of respect for other people's opinion. I'm sorry you did not see that.
Please can you quote me on this thread where wasn't I respectful to other people's opinions?
And another thing...since you want a better analogy....if Gamespot came out and said...adventure sites are dead they don't even get 1/3 of our site visit count...would this be right to you? They wouldn't be talking about a certain site in particular but a concept of sites. So this would be right?
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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