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| 20 MAR 2004 at 11:04am |
| Deleted User | ~~ Caroline/Ray ~~
I have no idea what's what in this matter.
However, I think this thread started around the topic of Mel Gibson's film.
I was so horrified by its contents that I may have got it a bit wrong.
But amongst the never ending blood & torture, only two 'justifications'(??>) are presented for the sadistic horror-show viz:- Caiaphas accuses Jesus of claiming to be the "Messiah" and "The Son of God".
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| 20 MAR 2004 at 12:16pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ Jo ~~
- wish I'd seen the interview you mention. What I do think though, is seeing he was being interviewed here in Australia [his home country of course] that he was being a bit careful in what he said as there is no doubt that a lot of Australians love to see their idols in a good light and most would certainly disagree with his father's views.
I saw a few short extracts on TV here. But you can see (&/or download) the whole thing here.
http://powten.com/posts/255.aspx
After seeing & listening to Mel Gibson … As the saying goes … “Would you buy a used car from this man??”
{{ P.S. ....... I have ADSL so this is no problem for me personally. You may or may not have broadband or similar. If not, you possibly can't view or access the interview ?? }}
Personally I can't understand how anyone, no matter what age they are, can possibly doubt the millions of Jews and others who were murdered in the Holocaust, our government here have even banned someone (sorry, forget his name, think he's English) from entering this country trying to get his ghastly anti-Semetic, anti-Holocaust ideas across, have an idea he was trying to promote a book about it - I'm pretty sure you'll know who I'm talking about, think I've blocked out his name because he sickened me so much with his ideas.
I think the guy you mean is the 'historian', David Irving. He has been denied entry into more than one country.
He is not only a blatant outspoken anti-semitic Holocaust Denier, but also a fanatical Nazi & Hitler supporter & apologist!
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| 20 MAR 2004 at 1:08pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | It most certainly was David Irving. I believe he was arrested in Germany where such lies are verboten!
It raises a question of sanity doesn't it. For an educated brain to deny something for which there are so many separate pieces of evidence (I've read the books and seen the photos), it makes you wonder if they are obsessed with the image of Hitler as a demi-god and will therefore allow no tarnishment of the beloved object.
So deep down does he believe it but wishes it wasn't so? to deny it to preserve the image of a perfect Hitler implies that such an event would in fact have been wrong. He doesn't expound Nazi theories and say they deserved to die, etc. He prefers to deny it altogether. Or does he truly believe that it's all lies? 'The only sane man on the planet and they lock me up' sort of stance?
I think it's quite appropriate for him to be banned from entering our country. Likewise when we ban known militant insurgents who only want to stir up trouble. I know it interfers with free speech but as we discussed earlier there really is no such thing as free - there will always need to be parameters of some sort.
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| 20 MAR 2004 at 4:24pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline (20 MAR 2004 4:45am)
Fickfack
You have completely forgotten what my point was. I'm not surprised because people will keep talking about the original topic of the thread.....
My question to you was - where does it say in the bible that Jesus claimed to be the son of God? In my version that is the ONE thing he does not say. In fact when I was a church going christian as a teenager (3 times a week) I read the bible from front to back, every word. The fact that Jesus is NEVER quoted as claiming to be the Son of God and the Messiah was used by the church elders as PROOF that he was in fact exactly that which he NEVER CLAIMED TO BE.
Now, if you can give me the chapter and verse where he says that, I'll look it up. I still have my bible.
Sorry, Caroline, I missed that. But Ray beat me to the punch.
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| 20 MAR 2004 at 10:50pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Fickfack
The whole point I was making was that there is no quote. Nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus directly quoted as claiming to be the Messiah.
It was a claim made on his behalf only after he had died and everyone else who knew him was dead also - in other words, in the other writings of the bible.
Given that the original 2nd centrury documents do not exist, only copies of copies of copies made 500 years later, it is possible that such claims were in fact only written down around the time 400AD onwards.
The existence of the Holy Trinity was only decided on at the Nicene conference at 375. So before then they didn't have a clear image of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. It didn't exist.
The bishops of all the differing churches got together because christianity was losing popularity badly, the many splinter churches were making up different rules according to their local customs. So they decided to settle it all once and for all and they actually outlawed lots of 'gospels' and letters which advocated different things and which were being used as teaching aids in the separate churches.
In other words, they drew up the club rules.
This is how they 'received' the wisdom then. Not from Jesus, or from a voice in the mountains but from a committee of power mongers desperate to keep their positions of wealth and influence. The invented the Trinity among other things. on't you see why questioning people find this all rather human instead of divine?
I see the hand of man behind the Bible, not god. It is not an eyewitness account.
The pope who called this conference Clement, decided to write the history of the church. Around the ceiling in a church he had paintings made of all the popes since St Peter. yep. This is the first time people without cameras, knew what dead people must have looked like. They bloody made them up! Some of the pictures have names some simply have the number - Pope Ten, Pope Eleven. For heavnen's sakes, they couldn't account for their own administration - probably didn't have the paperwork - so they filled in the blanks. This church with the pictures of these imaginery men is still there. I saw it on telly only the other week.
Now, given their power crisis, their ability to create the rules for the universe, god and a church, and their willingness to simply fill in the bits they don't know, I find it very plausible that they would make up other bits, write in bits they thought OUGHT to be there but which had 'got lost' never been written in the first place, were 'understood' or simply needed to be there to make sense of the rest of it.
Sorry. I truly think that a mind that seeks questions won't stop asking. I haven't stopped asking. I watch and listen to all sorts of programs about religion. I want to understand how these structures develop. And it is a development. Christianity has evolved, it changes to preserve the power and influence of its upper management - the priesthood.
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| 21 MAR 2004 at 12:02am |
| Deleted User | A friend of myself & wife came to tea today and I 'mentioned' (Hehehe ) that I am very hot under the collar re M.G.'s film.
Apparently she had just received an email from a friend in Washington with a link to an article by somebody called Paul Kurtz.
I've never heard of him ... but you may have?
He's apparently an exceedingly erudite Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York.
It seems that he has written dozens of books, is the President of (some) "Council for Secular Humanism" and active in MANY similar organisations.
His article amplifies many things that I personally feel ... only infinitely better and more knowledgeably than I could ever outline them.
The article is too long to include here ... but I will quote just his second paragraph.
He deals mainly with the veracity of the (very limited) facts concerning Jesus, and the large body of hearsay & fiction.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/www/kurtz_03_04.htm
............ The Passion of the Christ reinforces a reality secularists dare not overlook: more than ever before, the Bible has become a powerful political force in America. The Religious Right is pulling no punches in order to defeat secularism and, it hopes, transform the United States into a God-fearing country that salutes “one nation under God” and opposes gay marriages and the “liberal agenda.” The interjection of religion into the public square (which in fact was never empty) by powerful religious and political forces has ominous implications. James Madison, framer of the Constitution, rightfully worried about factions disrupting civil society, and religious factions can be the most fractious. ..........
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| 21 MAR 2004 at 1:02am |
JoGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Location: AU, Qld.
Status : Offline | Len said I saw a few short extracts on TV here. But you can see (&/or download) the whole thing here.
http://powten.com/posts/255.aspx
Thanks for the link Len, unfortunately we don't have broadband - bit too slow on dial-up.
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| 21 MAR 2004 at 7:07pm |
RaySorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 361
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Location: US, CA
Status : Offline | A GREAT article, which made many of the points I have been so unpopularly making on this forum.
Remember, procrastinate now. Don't put it off!!
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| 21 MAR 2004 at 9:13pm |
| Deleted User | Cheers Ray !! We both agree 100%.
But then (AFAIK) we're both agnostics ... although I think I'm closer to being an atheist! :-/
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