If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the
FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to
register or
login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
| 2 DEC 2003 at 7:38pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jamarchand (2 DEC 2003 7:29pm)
A question for you > Your windows system is official or pirate?
I only use Win98SE for games, and that is a legit copy that came with my computer. Otherwise I use IBM OS/2 which I paid for, and Linux which I got for free.
And your Office package?
I don't use MS Office. If I had to use an office package, I could use either Lotus SmartSuite which I own, or StarOffice/OpenOffice which is free.
You're able to pay 4,000 dollars for an AutoCAD offical copy?
I have no use for AutoCAD. But if it makes you feel any better, I recently spent a few hundred bucks on computer games (mostly adventures).
I forgot my sig.
|
| 2 DEC 2003 at 7:42pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (2 DEC 2003 7:38pm)
I have no use for AutoCAD. But if it makes you feel any better, I recently spent a few hundred bucks on computer games (mostly adventures).
I'm happy to see that you're a rich guy. Congratulations.
 &&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
|
| 2 DEC 2003 at 7:47pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jamarchand (2 DEC 2003 7:42pm)
I'm happy to see that you're a rich guy. Congratulations.
I buy what I can afford and don't use what I can't afford.
I forgot my sig.
|
| 2 DEC 2003 at 7:54pm |
SnowmanSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 309
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | For adventuredog:
Originally Posted By MichalN (2 DEC 2003 6:52pm)
No one deserves to have their PCs messed up by so-called copy protection schemes either. Wait for the class action lawsuits.
Couldn't have said it better myself! If they want to deliberately screw up peoples computers (and since they know about the problem, that's exactly what they're doing), they DESERVE to face the wrath of the public and the pirates!
Never do anything half-assed, always use your WHOLE ass!!
|
| 2 DEC 2003 at 9:48pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (2 DEC 2003 5:31pm)
Now we know why we paying customers have to suffer through crap like StarForce. That's not gonna make you very popular, jamarchand...
I'll tell you one thing.
Every time I started Black Mirror and had that &^%! StarForce thing flashing in my face, I asked myself why I hadn't sought out and downloaded the warez version. I get really tired of being accused of something I haven't done. I've never downloaded any warez and would not have even considered doing it until recently.
One thing jamarchand's post proves is that StarForce and its ilk don't stop game pirates at all. And I doubt jamarchand's pirate version annoyed him with a stupid StarForce logo every time he started the game. I'm curious to know if his warez version included the StarForce drivers anyway, or whether the warez doods knew how to strip it out of the game installer.
One thing I'm not clear on is whether it was Dreamcatcher/TAC that opted to use StarForce or the developers themselves. Not all recent Dreamcatcher/TAC games use StarForce. Mysterious Journey 2 does not. And versions of Black Mirror that were published overseas - NOT by Dreamcatcher - also used StarForce. So that points to the developer being the guilty party. What the StarForce representative said in the Dreamcatcher/TAC forum also suggests it's the developers, and not Dreamcatcher/TAC, that is responsible for the games being saddled with this abomination.
If THAT's the case, then boycotting ALL Dreamcatcher/TAC games doesn't make sense. Instead we should be urging Dreamcatcher not to publish games where the developer insists on using invasive forms of copy protection.
By the way, Mysterious Journey 2 installs entirely to the hard drive and plays without any CD in the drive. If it uses any kind of copy protection, it's invisible.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 12:34am |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (2 DEC 2003 9:47pm)
One thing I'm not clear on is whether it was Dreamcatcher/TAC that opted to use StarForce or the developers themselves. Not all recent Dreamcatcher/TAC games use StarForce. Mysterious Journey 2 does not. And versions of Black Mirror that were published overseas - NOT by Dreamcatcher - also used StarForce. So that points to the developer being the guilty party. What the StarForce representative said in the Dreamcatcher/TAC forum also suggests it's the developers, and not Dreamcatcher/TAC, that is responsible for the games being saddled with this abomination.
If THAT's the case, then boycotting ALL Dreamcatcher/TAC games doesn't make sense. Instead we should be urging Dreamcatcher not to publish games where the developer insists on using invasive forms of copy protection. Excellent points Jenny. Complaining to TAC is a good idea. They can then go back to the developers who are demanding its inclusion and have some support for NOT including it. It didn't bother me or my computer (so far) but I can see that it causes some folks a lot of trouble. I will email TAC and complain about StarForce.
Good news about the installation of Chameleon.
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 12:41am |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Snowman (2 DEC 2003 7:53pm)
Couldn't have said it better myself! If they want to deliberately screw up peoples computers (and since they know about the problem, that's exactly what they're doing), they DESERVE to face the wrath of the public and the pirates! They DO deserve to face the wrath of the public Snowman. They still DO NOT deserve to be pirated. I do not believe that the pirating of software should be condoned.
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 4:02am |
| Deleted User | Errrr.... how many of you people who express these wonderful sentiments here in this forum are actually going over to the TAC forum to take the StarForce rep on head-to-head?
I thought so.
Once again, this is the appropriate place to express your dissatisfaction with the StarForce copy protection system.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 12:11pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By adventuredog (2 DEC 2003 6:15pm)
No one DESERVES to have their games pirated. That is theft.
My good man, listen carefully - The real theft is make a war and kill thousand people based in fake facts only to take iraq oil and expand the empire. This is TEFT.
I, at least, "PAYIED" my pirate copy. Bush "TOOK" iraq oil and many lifes, including USA army soldiers.
&&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 12:36pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By jamarchand (3 DEC 2003 12:11pm)
My good man, listen carefully - The real theft is make a war and kill thousand people based in fake facts only to take iraq oil and expand the empire. This is TEFT.
I, at least, "PAYIED" my pirate copy. Bush "TOOK" iraq oil and many lifes, including USA army soldiers.
George Bush does not run the Adventure Company, so this is irrelevant. Also, adventuredog is not a man.
Like it or lump it, what you are doing is illegal.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 3:06pm |
| Deleted User | (N.B. Posted on another Forum also ... for the same 'help' info!)
Of the games mentioned that have potential StarForce problems, the only one I've played so far is Runaway (MANY times!) ... Broken Sword-3 has been ordered & is on it's way! (I've also played demos only of Black Mirror & URU... but it would figure that the *demos* have NO copy protection anyhow --- but who knows???).
So far, I haven't had any unusual problems. None of the 5 files mentioned exist on my setup. I looked in my Registry & didn't see any OBVIOUS references to StarForce ... but I'm not sufficiently techie to examine my Registry properly ... so something(s) may be lurking there?!?
QUESTION & HELP!
I'm using Windows'XP ONLY. Most references (maybe all ??) seem to have been by folk using one of the versions of Windows'98.
****** Can anybody say with reasonable certainty that ........
(A) You have definitely found these StarForce troubles using Windows'XP. ...... OR ALTERNATIVELY ...
(B) You have played at least a couple of these questionable games on Windows'XP, and have had NO TROUBLE WHATSOEVER (re ... post un-installation of the games).
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 3:16pm |
| Deleted User | Traitor's Gate 2 left ALL these files except prosync1.vxd on our XP computer.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 3:47pm |
| Deleted User | Bacardi Jim ... THANKS!
A friend (not on the Forum) has just sent me an email. He is quite knowledgeable & reliable on such matters ... MUCH more so than me!
He says he thinks that the problem only affects the OS, Windows-98SE.
~~~~~~ It seems he's not accurate ???? ~~~~~~
Apart from Traitor's Gate-2 which is not on my list, in your experience did it leave any traces on the following 4 games which I hope to play ...........
Broken Sword-3
URU
Journey to the Centre of the Earth
Dark Mirror.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 4:03pm |
| Deleted User | The only one of those games we have installed is URU, and we have no plans to uninstall it any time soon. Ask me in January about Black Mirror, since I got it for my girlfriend/shackmate for Xmas. We won't be getting JttCotE at all... the demo was enough to convince us it was a piece of crap. And given the countless bugs reported in BS3 it looks like we won't be getting it until there are a couple of patches released.
In other words... I can't help you. lol I CAN confirm that URU uses a different type of Starforce system from TG2, BS3, and Black Mirror. You don't see the Starforce logo when you start the game or have to sit through that "online scan" to confirm your key code. In fact, near as I can tell, the key code is accessed only when trying to set up your URU Live account. Or login to it, I presume... still waiting for my invitation)
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 4:48pm |
| Deleted User | @Jenny100 -
Seeing as no-one noticed other than me - you got Mysterious Journey 2??!!
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 5:09pm |
GreatPumpkinSpace Cadet
Posts : 162
Joined: 19 OCT 2003
Status : Online | BarcardiJim,
I don't want to register at the TAC Forums just to post one or two messages that go in circles with the StarForge rep, but maybe you should post a link to this thread on that board, or PM it to them since they are so hot to contact you in a non-public arena. Personally I think that thread is pretty funny.
"I won't address the ethical, philosophical and technical problems with our product, I'll just say that if you beg us for special patches and .exe's StarForge may or may not FUBAR your system. Oh, and if it does, it is all the developer's fault for choosing to protect their game with our program. We have zero culpibility for anything we do." :
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 5:22pm |
| Deleted User | Bacardi Jim!
It's too late for me to do anything about BS-3 since it's paid for & in the mail to me.
I'll just have to keep an eye open for patches ... and if necessary, afterwards, to apply the StarForce 'antidote'.
The same with regard to "Conspiracies" which is also on its way to me.
But Jenny100 said that "Conspiracies" does not 'use' StarForce.
I hope she's correct!
Do you happen to know??
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 6:43pm |
SingerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Online | He might be lying through his teeth, but otherwise, the ethical issue ISN'T with StarForce.
As I said before we provide a toolkit that allows integrating a protection. It includes possibility to add uninstallation of protection drivers to game uninstaller. Game developers decided not to use it. I suppose they've decided so in order not to force user to reboot PC then he would install any new protected game.
This guy's saying that StarForce isn't really a "product" that's just inserted or left out. It's a set of tools that need proper implementation. Just as we wouldn't blame lousy texturing in a game on its engine, it's the fault of the GAME uninstaller for failing to include the driver removal option StarForce provided.
Again, that may be total B.S. on his part, but until we hear TAC confirm that, it does seem likely the ball is in their court.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 6:59pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Singer (3 DEC 2003 6:43pm)
He might be lying through his teeth, but otherwise, the ethical issue ISN'T with StarForce.
Sure it is. See below why.
This guy's saying that StarForce isn't really a "product" that's just inserted or left out. It's a set of tools that need proper implementation. Just as we wouldn't blame lousy texturing in a game on its engine, it's the fault of the GAME uninstaller for failing to include the driver removal option StarForce provided.
That's true; if TAC (or whoever) included proper SF uninstall routine, problems with StarForce would go away after the game is uninstalled. But that hardly solves anything while StarForce is installed. If the StarForce drivers cause the slightest problem while a SF protected game is installed, who else should be blamed but StarForce? Why should users have to choose between playing SF protected games and having a fully functional computer?
BTW did anyone get into a situation where a StarForce protected game wouldn't work at all? I've seen one such PC (with the original Czech release of Black Mirror), but maybe the newer versions of StarForce fixed that...
I forgot my sig.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 7:11pm |
SingerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Online | Oh, I quite agree with that. I was considering that a technical issue that is most definitely StarForce's responsibility. But the ethical question of leaving behind unwanted drivers sounds like it wasn't their choice.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 8:33pm |
GreatPumpkinSpace Cadet
Posts : 162
Joined: 19 OCT 2003
Status : Online | That doesn't explain why the uninstall utility isn't freely available. You have to e-mail them and specifically request it when there is nothing anywhere that indicates that you would have to do this.
1. The uninstall utility should be downloadable from a prominent place on their website and freely distributed.
2. They should have a prominently placed FAQ describing the known problems that tells people what to do.
They don't have either of these, and I would guess it is because they don't want to advertise that their software is extremely problematic. That is entirely an ethical issue and it is all StarForce. Saying that all software is buggy is not an excuse for this kind of deception.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 9:17pm |
| Deleted User | Is it ethical to even produce the product so that it CAN be implemented without the necessary "cleanup" utility as part of the uninstall? I think not. It's like a company producing safety machanisms for guns separately from the guns themselves and then saying, "Hey! It's not our fault if people (game publishers) purchase the guns but not the safeties and then run around handing them out."
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 9:32pm |
SingerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Online | That's more of a programming question, really. Maybe Michal or someone else can answer it better. We're talking about code here. If they don't create the actual uninstaller, they can hardly force the issue. And really, there probably are companies that make gun parts, including safeties, and they really can't force the assemblers to include the safeties. The question of ethics belongs to the assemblers (in this case, game publishers).
Ultimately, there's plenty of blame to go around. StarForce sold a faulty product to TAC, and TAC is selling faulty products to the public. Yeesh.
EDIT: GP, I do agree that StarForce has a responsibility to offer solutions. The only issue of "ethics" I was referring to was the decision to leave drivers after uninstall.
|
| 3 DEC 2003 at 10:59pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Singer (3 DEC 2003 9:32pm)
That's more of a programming question, really. Maybe Michal or someone else can answer it better. We're talking about code here. If they don't create the actual uninstaller, they can hardly force the issue.
That is true - since StarForce doesn't write the installer/uninstaller for the end product, they cannot force the publishers to uninstall StarForce. The other question is how easy/difficult StarForce makes it for the publishers to include a cleanup routine - but I don't know that.
I forgot my sig.
|
