| 12 OCT 2003 at 1:52pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By onewolfy1 (12 OCT 2003 1:20pm)
For a man who very rarely discussed TLJ on his website, Ragnar Tornquist has been talking a lot about it lately.
http://www.ragnartornquist.com/thoughts.html
You should read his thoughts from Sept 28th first, then Oct 3rd. I can't make up my mind If I'm excited about the sequel, or very afraid of it.
Any other thoughts?
I had heard a while ago that TLJ2 would be more action orientated or Direct Controlled.
Ragnar was moving away from the Point and Click genre.
Ragnars comments on BS3 were interesting. I have said in another thread that I believe that the success or Failure (Financially) of BS3 could change alot in the adventure genre. A big success will lead to copies of the direct control adventure method and more big releases. Failure will just give reviewers etc more reason to winge that Adventures are dead.
I will reserve judgment until alot more is known about the game.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 2:00pm |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | I've been reading his blog every so often, trying to glean any info about TLJ2. Am confused by this :
It's a good thing that they are hyping it, of course, because from what I hear, Revolution is going much the same direction with their adventure franchise as we are with ours. In fact, Mr. Cecil has stated the following, which may apply equally well to our game:
"The direct control interface has allowed us to introduce a much more diverse range of gameplay, from the traditional investigative adventure gameplay to exploration and (cerebral) action events. The game is unique in the way that it plays – it is not an action adventure, nor is it a traditional adventure. It’s a totally new mix of adventure, exploration, stealth and combat. The Sleeping Dragon is still primarily cerebral in its gameplay."
If gamers respond as enthusiastically to BS3 as Edge has, I believe the adventure genre may be in for something of a mass-market revival. And that is obviously something we're all hoping for. Sorry, I am not happy with the word "combat", cerebral or otherwise. Why must this be included? I have never enjoyed combat in any adventure game including the GK series. Many games have been ruined for me because of the combat. Others I have greatly enjoyed except for the combat. > If you must put in combat to appeal to the masses, please put in a "skip combat" cheat key, for those of us who wish to avoid combat and move on to the next screen. Thanks!
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 2:25pm |
pleto4_ryanIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 93
Joined: 7 APR 2003
Status : Online | I have never enjoyed combat in any adventure game
em...
Last Express
The Last Grim Journey Is Life...
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 2:27pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Whilst I'm sure Ragnar means well, I think that some of his assertions are just plain wrong. I didn't play TLJ just for the plot - I played it because it was a great game all round, with a good story, great characters and dialogue, lovely graphics and yes, good puzzles. Admittedly the gameplay was nothing ground-breaking, but so what? If you play an FPS game, underneath the fancy graphics and technology the basic gameplay is exactly the same as it was back in the days of Doom - you click on something with your mouse to shoot it.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this sudden craze for introducing more 'action-orientated' gameplay into adventure games. There are already games which combine puzzles with action and combat - they're known as 'action-adventures'. If you want to play those that's fine, but I don't, and neither do most of the other TLJ fans I know. In fact, the impression I get is that most people liked TLJ so much because it was a very traditional adventure, with no combat whatsoever.
This is not to say I'm not willing to try games like BS3 and TLJ2. I've no problem with 3D as long as it looks good and the interface is well-implemented, and I can cope with a few action elements (as long as they're kept to a minimum). But it saddens me to see Ragnar Tornquist abandon a successful formula just because a few people described TLJ as 'slow' and 'boring'. Why should their comments cancel out those of the game's thousands of fans?
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 2:54pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | "the next game is just part two, so you'll have to stay patient and stick with me. There are miles to walk yet."
I like the sound of that.
I'm not too excited about the combat, but I'm reserving judgement until the game is on my hard drive. Full Throttle and The Last Express have had combat in them. Adding combat doesn't necessarily mean it'll be a bad, bad game with impure elements that'll appeal to <gasp> the masses.
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 3:12pm |
| Deleted User | But it's not a successful formula, is it? I mean, sure, the traditional point-and-click interface has probably been perfected by now. But this doesn't mean it's the best for the adventure genre. All we know is that direct-control interfaces, at the degree they have been attempted, has not proven better. Mask of Eternity did a valiant attempt, but it turned out to be a hybrid without the excellence of the best games in any of the genres it borrowed from. Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4 stayed true to the traditional puzzle design, but had you running around, bouncing off walls and swearing at the controls half of the time. But within the action/adventure and FPS genres, navigation in 3D environments has come much further and offers almost no frustration at all, and has even reached very advanced levels of interaction with the game world. It will be interesting to see how well the new Prince of Persia game works. If you've played the original platform game and its sequel you know how it revolutionized the physics and interaction in platform games and it seems they are aiming for the same with the sequel. Also, other genres have changed interfaces over the years and become better in the process without alienating the fans of the genre. Take FPS games for instance. With Quake came the revolution of full-3D environments, and after a while people moved away from the traditional Doom-style of gameplay and found out how to use the mouse. This development was actually pioneered by the online gaming community, as they simply found out that mouse control gave them the tactical advantage of more speed and precision after a bit of training. Half-Life then changed the genre forever by allowing more interaction than the simple "run-jump-kill-pick up powerups" that Quake offered. If it turns out well, BS3 might in fact be the Half-Life of the adventure genre. I love the point-and-click interface as much as anyone, but it has its limitations, and the genre needs to find a way to get around them to stay alive.
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 3:55pm |
WimliGuild Master
Posts : 3259
Joined: 14 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I think it's brave of Tornquist to take a new direction, to keep his job as a designer interesting. Every genre needs designers who are not afraid to try and do something new.
That said, whether I'll like the end result, I won't know that until I actually play TLJ2. Though the use of the word combat is one that I don't exactly like, I'll give both BS3 and TLJ the benfit of the doubt. So far I haven't played many action/adventure games, though the ones I did play I didn't really like, but I'm willing to give talented designers like Tornquist and Cecil a chance on these two high profile titles. I'm still pretty confident that the action elements in BS3 won't make the whole an action game with plenty of combat in it. There were ways to die in BS 1 and 2 too, you know. And I agree with Lucien that a lot of the future of adventure games might depend on the success or failure of BS3, including how TLJ2 will turn out to be.
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 4:03pm |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | From the sounds of this, I'm VERY suspicious. Point&Click adventure classics have been proven to work - even after all these decades it's been shown to maintain interest. Introducing action elements is typically an indication that producers are growing a little too desperate for ideas.
But nevertheless, I've not played TLJ2 yet. I'll wait until I've finished it before I decide if it's still operable or not.
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 5:03pm |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By pleto4_ryan (12 OCT 2003 2:25pm)
em...
Last Express Love Last Express; intensely dislike the combat scenes in it. Would prefer a cheat around ANY combat scenes if the developers believe that they MUST be included in an adventure game.
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 9:14pm |
copycatSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 293
Joined: 24 OCT 2002
Status : Online | It's simple. I'll probably read the (pr)eview, maybe play a demo (and/or watch a trailer) and I'll see how they've incorporated the action. Although I prefer p&c (I believe it's the best choice for adventure games, period), I won't not play a game that has direct control. What I won't play is a game which has you running around doing some sort of combat most of the time and solving a puzzle now and then.
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| 12 OCT 2003 at 9:38pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Petter_Holmberg (12 OCT 2003 3:12pm)
But it's not a successful formula, is it?
Why not?
I mean, sure, the traditional point-and-click interface has probably been perfected by now. But this doesn't mean it's the best for the adventure genre. All we know is that direct-control interfaces, at the degree they have been attempted, has not proven better.
Judging by the above quote we can say that point and click is the best interface to date. You said it yourself actually. How do you judge if anything is the best in its category? You compare it with everything else made until that point of time.
But within the action/adventure and FPS genres, navigation in 3D environments has come much further and offers almost no frustration at all, and has even reached very advanced levels of interaction with the game world.
And why does the adventure genre has to copy characteristics of other genres that have little to do with adventure games. I didn't see strategy games moving to direct control just because action games do it. I am not saying that a direct control interface is bad because it's used in action games, but I disregard the argument that 'action games did it, so it's good for adventures as well' as a valid one. Don't forget that in action games where you stand is one of the most important things in the gameplay, while in adventures the most important thing is 'what is there in the area where you stand'.
I love the point-and-click interface as much as anyone, but it has its limitations, and the genre needs to find a way to get around them to stay alive.
I have heard the above some times lately, but I still have to listen one good argument behind that statement. So what is the limitation of a point and click interface? Tell me one simple puzzle that you can have with direct control that you can't have with point and click. I'd love to hear even one. Because I'm tired of hearing this PR exaggerated talk.
And if you consider as the limitation of a point and click interface the pixel hunting, well the in P&C's defense, the direct control interface gives birth to table wall hunting..there are ways to avoid both if the developers want to.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 12:20am |
WimliGuild Master
Posts : 3259
Joined: 14 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 OCT 2003 9:38pm)
I have heard the above some times lately, but I still have to listen one good argument behind that statement. So what is the limitation of a point and click interface? Tell me one simple puzzle that you can have with direct control that you can't have with point and click. I'd love to hear even one. Because I'm tired of hearing this PR exaggerated talk.
What I like about a direct control interface is exactly what its name says: you have direct control over the character you play, you more become the character than with a p&c interface where you directly control a cursor, not the character you play. the problem is that this type of interface has not yet been implanted perfectly in any adventure game I have played, being more of a nuisance than a way to get closer to the character you play. It's something where action games have succeeded and one area where adventure game designers who want to have a direct control interface could learn something from.
So yes, the p&c interface of current (and past) adventure games is probably the best one around now, but that doesn't mean that some adventure game designer might not come up with a direct control interface that, some day, might be considered better by adventure gamers than the p&c interface. I'm not saying it will happen or whether it'll be liked by everybody, but I do believe that it's definitely a possibility.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 1:59am |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Wimli (13 OCT 2003 12:20am)
So yes, the p&c interface of current (and past) adventure games is probably the best one around now, but that doesn't mean that some adventure game designer might not come up with a direct control interface that, some day, might be considered better by adventure gamers than the p&c interface.
Amen to that. We can't just wait for some deisgner to have an epiphany and sketch the plans for the 'perfect' direct control interface, we need to make more dc interface games to see what works, see what doesn't, where we can improve, and so on. Only then will the interface progress.
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 3:03am |
adventuredogGuild Master
Posts : 3255
Joined: 14 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | Inspite of what I said above, I'm still eagerly awaiting both TLJ2 and BS3.
I don't mind direct control, it is not my favorite way of moving about. It's direct combat I can do without! >
Still adventuring after all these years!
Patiently awaiting The Last Crown: Haunting of Hallowed Isle, and Bracken Tor...
... and Asylum if it's not tooooo scary...
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 3:36am |
| Deleted User | Whatever.
Just have April shut the fuck up and do something other than run back and forth and chat.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 10:41am |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | One other thing I forgot to mention: I'm seriously tired of hearing pure adventure fans referred to as 'fundamentalists'. I very much doubt that action fans would be too happy to find Myst-style mechanical puzzles in Doom 3, even if there were only a few of them - yet no one refers to them as 'action fundamentalists'. It's not a question of viewing action elements as bad or evil, it's a question of what you like or dislike - if I refuse to eat a particular type of food because I don't like it, does that make me a fundamentalist? The fact of the matter is that there are many people who simply don't like action and combat, and others like me who enjoy both action and puzzles, but not a mixture of the two.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 1:00pm |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The word "combat" also scares me. A little action doesn't. Whether or not a little action or a little "combat" should be in a game depends on the game. If it is integral to the story, not too difficult or time consuming, then I don't have a problem with it.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 1:19pm |
insane_cobraIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 12
Joined: 12 OCT 2003
Status : Online | well, imho it depends on implementation of combat elements. if combat is just tucked up on top of pure adventure gameplay, then it feels awkward. but there are also games like little big adventure that walk the thin line between action and adventure with almost effortless grace. yet i would never call lba an action/adventure game, to me it definitelly feels like pure adventure, although it plays differently.
i think that direct control interfaces of the past tried too hard to emulate the feel of point & click which is pointless (pun intended). direct control should also affect gameplay on a fundamental level and take adventure games in new directions while keeping what is important: storytelling through puzzle solving and dialogue. that's why i'm so excited about bs3 and tlj.s, it seems they have the courage to finally take that step.
of course, i'm not saying that traditional adventures should or even could die, there is enough space for both approaches.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 2:37pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I agree with insane cobra that there is enough room for both types of controls. For some reaon it always comes down to an either/or propostion and I don't think that's correct. Of course individual games should choose their control scheme and stick to it but over all, direct control and point and click are both valid.
I loved the feel of old style point and click for some games, esp. in the older cartoony adventure games. It would feel odd to use direct control though LA did a pretty good job of it with MI4 and GF. There's just a soothing familiarity to point and click and sometimes I just want to tap my finger and let all the action happen in my imagination.
Other times I want to use keyboard and mouse and move my character around more directly. I've said it too many times already but GK3 gained immensiy IMO using the combo mouse and keyboard interface. I was much more IN the game than say GK2 which used point and click. I think this is what developers are interested in when they talk about direct control and adventure games, this extra dimension direct control can bring. It not a matter of mechanics or "borrowing advanced technology from action games" but more a new emotion, a new feeling. Obviously, the jury is still out on this one but I really hope BS3 nails it and gives us something new.
I read on another board an interesting proposition for point and click which was to use a really lively camera, swooping and diving, panning and circling, all triggered by a simple mouse click. That sounded appealing, having more dynamic on screen movment and not just click on a spot and wait for the character to cross the screen to it. I know some people get motion sickness though so there should probably be a way to turn the dynamic camera off and go with a more grounded POV as well.
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| 13 OCT 2003 at 4:31pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By pleto4_ryan (12 OCT 2003 2:25pm)
em...
Last Express
For the umpteenth time: The Last Express had a cheat for the fights.
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