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| 13 SEP 2003 at 9:49pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I have never commented for or against, but will now for what it is worth.
The first Myst was good but the ending was lousy and that was a disappointment. Riven was much better. Myst III really hooked me because of the actor in it.
I am definitely looking forward to URU. It looks quite different and if I had the time and the money I would probably go online with it after playing it through one time.
I like all kinds of games and that is why I never have gotten involved with the 'is it an adventure game or isn't an adventure game' debate.
I consider almost everything I play an adventure whether what is termed adventure by most here or an RPG or a FPS. They all take you on an adventure.
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| 13 SEP 2003 at 10:03pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | FWIW: this isn't meant to be another discussion about whether these games are adventure games or not and I hope it doesn't go in that direction. It's about plot or story.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 SEP 2003 at 10:14pm |
| Deleted User | I thoroughly agree with you SirDave! The problem most people have with the plots of Myst-type games is that there is no overt plot. Characters do not walk up to you and say "Let me explain the game to you", and force you to click through 20 minutes of dialogue before the gameplay resumes. In TLJ, the plot is rammed down your throat. Characters explain what is going on in great detail. Like Riven, the game has markings on the walls showing some plot information, specifically in the Maerid cave. But instead of letting you decipher them yourself, April explains it to you in great detail. Likewise, Vestrum Tobias goes on and on about the meanings of the paintings in the temple- but why couldn't April simply examine the paintings herself? If the graphics don't give you that information, there's something wrong.
Now, in Riven there is almost no overt plot until you meet Gehn. BUT by this time, if you have explored the environments carefully, you can see Gehn's handiwork throughout the game world. You can read about, and infer, most of the past events of the game world. You can examine the drawings in the rotating room. And you're the one who pieces the plot together. Understanding the plot becomes an accomplishment, like you've actually solved a mystery instead of sitting through half an hour of dialogue.
Which is why it irritates me whenever someone brazenly announces that Myst has no plot due to the lack of dialogue trees. Please, people. Obviously, they played Myst too quickly and missed the objects in the game that cast light on the plot.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 12:55am |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The reason I don't think MR&c games don't have much of a plot is because, like you said, most of the plot is leaning about what happened in the past. The plot doesn't change due to your actions, it's just as though you're a spectator uncovering what once was. I agree that discovering the plot on your own is a thrill, but who says I need to play a MR&c to experience that?
***VERY MINOR GK3 SPOILERS***
Take, for example, GK3. You need to use what you observed, the fingerprints, the spying, etc. to piece together who had been where with whom and what character had seen what. There's even a test near the end (in the dining room) to see whether you've been paying attention!
***END GK3 SPOILERS***
MR&c plots are, in a way, a lot like reading a diary. Sure, they can be interesting to read, but actually partaking and interacting with the events is so much more fun, in my opinion.
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 12:57am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | At last, two well written comments on Myst/Riven that I wholeheartedly agree with.
The obsession with catergorisation is petty. Let's just enjoy the different games for what they have to offer us.
Gayle,
My experience entirely. The actor was the best thing about Exile, the puzzles were too hard for me. Riven was the best example of storytelling possible. It was like reading a foreign language picture book. You had to devine the story yourself from the clues available. I really enjoyed having my imagination given such a thorough workout.
But, was anyone else spooked out the first time they sat in the cage chair! Startled the hell out of me. what a thrill. Playing late at night, the lights out, spooky music and the damn cage comes down.!
And I remember once looking back into the temple while waiting for the cable car and there was Gehn's face ! And the first time I saw that robed figure on the map island - I just loved being surprised like that.
I'm REALLY hoping they take Riven as their inspiration for Uru.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 12:59am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Is a plot not described in words somehow better? Why?
Riven has a plot for sure, even if it's somewhat hidden and more inferred than explicit. Perhaps the difference between MR&c and the 'other' games is not lack of plot but rather the player's involvement in it. In Riven, the player is a passive observer for a large part of the game. In a game like, say, Broken Sword, the player's alter ego is in the middle of events from the very beginning.
Obviously some people like one way, other people like the other...
I forgot my sig.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 1:06am |
AnneGuild Master
Posts : 4800
Joined: 8 MAR 2003
Status : Online | MichelN.Why not both?
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 1:16am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5535
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (14 SEP 2003 12:57am)
But, was anyone else spooked out the first time they sat in the cage chair! Startled the hell out of me. what a thrill. Playing late at night, the lights out, spooky music and the damn cage comes down.!
Ah, then it wasn't just me. For a minute there I thought my "Oooo, what does this button/lever do?" curiosity had gotten the best of me.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 1:24am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (14 SEP 2003 12:59am)
Is a plot not described in words somehow better? Why?
Obviously some people like one way, other people like the other...
Since, IMHO, the problem has been that the MR&c games have been labelled as having little or no plot, the point is that 'a plot not necessarily described in words' is not somehow worse. I don't think anyone is implying that they are 'better'.
On the other hand, your final statement is more on the mark.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 5:42am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Frankly I prefer a plot that my character is actually INVOLVED in. There's a difference between reading a history book and a novel.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 8:52am |
AnneGuild Master
Posts : 4800
Joined: 8 MAR 2003
Status : Online | But you can enjoy both.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 10:47am |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | I'm with SirDave and the others - I loved the way you start off in this alien world with no knowledge of what's going on, and the plot slowly unravels through scraps of paper, pictures etc. It lends a wonderfully mysterious, slightly scary atmosphere to the game. In fact, one of the things I thought rather spoiled Myst 3 was the fact that we knew the villain's motivation right from the beginning, what with all the pre-release publicity.
I can see why some people might not like this type of thing, but I don't agree that your actions have no effect on the plot - of course they do! For instance, all the Myst games have several different endings depending on the player's actions.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 11:32am |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | Quote by MichalN:
"Riven has a plot for sure, even if it's somewhat hidden and more inferred than explicit. Perhaps the difference between MR&c and the 'other' games is not lack of plot but rather the player's involvement in it. In Riven, the player is a passive observer for a large part of the game. In a game like, say, Broken Sword, the player's alter ego is in the middle of events from the very beginning. "
I heartily agree.
There was a discussion on another board about what types of plots gamers prefer. At first I was going to say I prefer minimal plot, ala Myst, Rhem, and Comer. But this would be short changing those games. All these games have a background story line. The Myst trilogy has such a complex background that there are boards and books dedicated to the discussion of the D'ni . All these games have goals and directives, they are just not spelled out for you at the start of the adventure.
Pondering further, I guess I would say that the plot doesn't matter, in as much as how it is delivered. I prefer to have the plot unfold as part of the adventure. Nothing wrong with starting off with a goal - find the murderer, solve the crime. But I get more enjoyment having some cryptic message and starting the game not knowing why or what I'm doing there.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 12:53pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By jujigatame (14 SEP 2003 5:41am)
Frankly I prefer a plot that my character is actually INVOLVED in. There's a difference between reading a history book and a novel.
I think of Myst as being more like a detective story: when you get there, most of the events have already happened and you have to figure out what's going on. Once the mystery is unravelled, then you take a part in the story by foiling the villain.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 2:01pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Fickfack
That is really a very neat description of Myst and similar games. I don't think I've ever seen it described so succinctly before.
Give that man a cigar! Well Done.
Now, let's all try to rember that this thread is NOT a debate. It's for Myst lovers only. So we won't disagree with each other.
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 6:25pm |
pleto4_ryanIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 93
Joined: 7 APR 2003
Status : Online | My story of Myst and etc
One of the days i went to the game store to buy a good game, i found Outcast and took it immidiately But too bad it couldn't play in my computer it needed something that i don't even remember now
so i went back and changed it. Found riven. Had heard about it some opinions and bought it. Too bad the first cd had some problems going r-e-e-a-a-l-l-y-y-y- slow at the start where you get out of the "prison", then it went better, anyway it dind't hold me much, for that problem also as it got on my nerves...real bad
SO riven got erased from my memory...
After some years i had the urge to find a game where i would be thrown into somewhere unknown, where there would be absolutely noone around and that i had to understand what the heck was going on by notes, books and stuff...
So one of the days i went into a store and found Myst : masterpiece edition. And i remembered that this game is what i actually want. and so i bought it . It was really good, i passed all the myst riddles for fun (not so hard as many say i dunno :) ) . I even used a notebook and copying scethes writing down clues etc...
But, the whole fascination got lost, the game begun being boring..and so myst-time for me stopped...Now why i bought Myst 3 in the collector's edition? don't ask
So how i find myst and the others...it's about phaze. I really liked them then, and maybe i would love it again in the future (i can feel it it is coming) but for years i hated it...
It's how you are gonna see it...
another note : myst etc aren't adventures, they are riddle-games...
totally diferent...
The Last Grim Journey Is Life...
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 6:49pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By pleto4_ryan (14 SEP 2003 6:25pm)
another note : myst etc aren't adventures, they are riddle-games...
totally diferent...
Er, why not? They have a plot, a large degree of exploration and (admittedly limited) character interaction; as far as I can see the'yre just as much adventures as Syberia or Grim Fandango. What exactly is it that you think makes them 'riddle-games' instead?
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 7:00pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By pleto4_ryan (14 SEP 2003 6:25pm)
another note : myst etc aren't adventures, they are riddle-games...
I don't see how Myst and co. can possibly be called riddle games. To me, a riddle is an annoying little guessing game where someone says something like "I have no eyes and live in a pool of egg yolk. What am I?" and you have to guess what it is. There is no such puzzle in any of the Myst games.
This is another of my pet peeves about Myst and co. People like to refer to "Myst-style sliders and mazes" or some such thing, but Myst has never, ever used a slider or a maze (the Mazerunner in the Selenitic Age is a sound-based puzzle. If you thought it was a maze, you missed the point.)
For some reason, people have the idea that certain puzzles, like sliders and mazes, are somehow typical or representative of the Myst series. They couldn't be further from the truth.
I expect everyone will agree with me, because, as Caroline said, we're all Myst fans here. If you want to argue, resurrect Rael's Myst thread. Or start another one.
@Caroline: Thank you! When do I get my cigar?
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 7:07pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | we're all Myst fans here
We are?
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 8:02pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jujigatame (14 SEP 2003 5:41am)
Frankly I prefer a plot that my character is actually INVOLVED in. There's a difference between reading a history book and a novel.
This is just the sort of assumption about the MR&c games that drove me to start this thread. In a sense, a novel is just history once your finished it. Secondly, you don't know the history of a MR&c game until you understand and gather all the information. Again, both game forms have plots, we're just interacting with and determining them differently.
On another matter: Please oh please let's not respond to comments like 'myst etc aren't adventures, they are riddle-games...' I am so sick to death of that discussion and the individuals who throw comments like that out there with wanton abandon. If they want to get into that, let them start another thread!
InlandAZ: No this isn't just for MR&c lovers. I think already it's lead to some interesting points on both sides & I look forward to more.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 8:15pm |
pleto4_ryanIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 93
Joined: 7 APR 2003
Status : Online | I don't see how Myst and co. can possibly be called riddle games.
mmm....Games who are based mostly on riddles...are called Riddle-games....(or i remember wrong word ???)
The Last Grim Journey Is Life...
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 8:59pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By pleto4_ryan (14 SEP 2003 8:14pm)
mmm....Games who are based mostly on riddles...are called Riddle-games....(or i remember wrong word ???)
Yes, this is the wrong word. You mean puzzles.
And all adventures are based on puzzles. Is TLJ a puzzle game? The gameplay is based entirely on puzzles.
For SirDave's sake, please don't argue about this or he may have an aneurism, which would be a great loss to this board.
We are?
Yes. Didn't you realize how much you love Myst?
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 10:12pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Fickfack (14 SEP 2003 8:59pm)
Yes. Didn't you realize how much you love Myst?
Aaaaahhhh.... yes.
That what some feminists said in the late sixties, early seventies: every woman is lesbian, except those who don't know it yet. :
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| 14 SEP 2003 at 10:42pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Betje (14 SEP 2003 10:11pm)
Aaaaahhhh.... yes.
That what some feminists said in the late sixties, early seventies: every woman is lesbian, except those who don't know it yet. :
Betje:
Since you were responding to the comment: Didn't you realize how much you love Myst? ", I'm trying to get the true significance here. Is it perhaps that every lesbian loves Myst??
The future ain't what it used to be!
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