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| 2 DEC 2002 at 3:33pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Rael (2 DEC 2002 3:16pm)
You call that an adventure?
Ahem, do you need someone to bug-test something else?
Uh.. my point was they're making a Schizm 2 becuase it made enough money and generated enough interest to warrant a sequel. Duh...
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 5:11pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Monkeybone, I think you misinterpreted 2ma2's post.
He is saying that as far as the mainstream gaming industry is concerned, adventures are dead, but as far as he is concerned, the growing number of smaller companies producing adventures means that the adventure game is very much alive.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 6:09pm |
| Deleted User | I mis-interpreted it because its hard to interpret.
Still, if that's the case, then I still stand by my views!
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 8:29pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (2 DEC 2002 3:16pm)
Ahem, do you need someone to bug-test something else?
Erm... you mean my comic strips?
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 8:39pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (2 DEC 2002 1:47pm)
Am I just being ridiculously nasty, or have I made some points?
It would be a lot easier to tell if you'd got the quoting right (Hint: the opening quote tag doesn't have a slash '/', the closing quote tag does). You can still go back and edit it...
I forgot my sig.
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 12:36am |
2ma2Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Dam, the irony seemed to been used way too much as references to inside jokes. I blaim the AGS board.
To clarify:
The "adventures are dead" line is referring to the maintstreams view on the genre. Even the president of Revolution began his speech about BS3 on ECTS (or some equalent showoff thingie) with "Adventures are dead..." (I'm paraphrasing tho'). I don't share that oppinion and that is what I'm arguing for in the rest of the post.
What I want to point out that we are the fans here, and we're the ones who want adventure games. But our amount contra the rest of the gaming industry is not as big as you think it is. Yes there are new games coming up, but almost all of them are altered in some way to attract others than the adventure players. Let's take BS3 as an example. Is there an obvious reason why they need 3d? It'll be interesting to see. I manage to aquire GK3 cheap (no, not pirated, just cheap.. ) but I wasn't very impressed with it. I tend to see glithces in the neck of people quite annoying, and it invented a whole new genre of annoying adventure design features, namely "vector-hunting". And I have yet not encountered anything that made it absolutely required to use 3d, so why did they? The market demans it? I sure didn't demand it. Did you? We're the adventure game players. Did we demand 3d graphics? Did we? Well if we didn't who did?
The market?
Also, smaller sales demands gives the ability to not having to appeal to all adventure players aswell. The games content can be driven to it's edge even more. There's no reason why you should make only entertainment so you'll earn money. Reasoning like that made Day another day, and everyone that has seen that must agree on the demand for a complete refund.
And how the hell did you interpret my FT-example into thinking they should replicate that. I was merely pointing towards the fact that even the most "primitive" technical usage could still produce something good enough for people to buy for a smaller charge. 3d or 145660x103002 resolution doesn't mean shit, with a capital 's'. It all lies in the plot and puzzles. Gameplay!
And the next sentence you quoted was the end of the first, which may the reason why you misunderstood it. Heck, I'd even purchase an AGI game! However, I wouldn't pay more than perhaps 5$, but still I'd pay!
Well, yes ofcourse, if you can't afford it, you can't use 3d, but I thought that was pretty much clear
"No souls need to be sold. There's no need. And if you have to just to get your feet off the ground, the why the hell not?"
No! Why the hell must you compromise your beliefs in order to "get your feet of the ground"?! It's quite simple. Either your work is accepted and people buy it, or it's not and you're better off doing something else. You can never work properly if you're working for someone else. You must do the games for you, the games you would want to play! "..if you have to just to get your feet off the ground, the why the hell not?"<- THAT is selling your soul.
And finally, I'm an amateur/professional developer, currently within the AGS community, and I'm considering joining the group that may be gathered in England, which Helm may be a part of. This is previoulsy mentioned in this thread. My ideals and feelings are very naive and pathetic from the markets point of view, but I can deal with that. I won't cry blood because I can't make it as a developer. If the world doesn't want my work, so be it. There's other things to do..
Sorry for the lack of quotes, but since it was spread out on 3 posts, I couldn't urge fiddleing around with 'em
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 12:41am |
| Deleted User | Hey man, it's gaming not religion. Belief has nothing to do with it. Cash before art. Otherwise you'll chop your ear off and die before your famous!
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 12:48am |
| Deleted User | By the way... I believe (going back on my last post :-/) you have to earn the right to be able to express yourself.
I work really hard, hoping that one day, someone will take me on as a director. As a board artist, I'm learning with some of the best people I could hope to be with and I'm verry luck and proud of that fact. I'm not selling my soul - I'm learning about a business and getting in on things I wouldn't have dreamed possible.
What Im saying (there is a point to this) is that I admire people who set off on their own, but it's not the only way of doing things. Look at John McCormack - level designer, now a genius of FPS. Had to earn his place. Some, however, get lucky. Thats the way it is!
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 12:51am |
2ma2Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | And what's wrong with that. You think of games as a lesser form of medium. I'd rather be in the history books than having alot of money whilst living.
We couldn't possible have more different views on this matter I guess. This quote shows it:
Originally Posted By monkeybone (2 DEC 2002 3:33pm)
Uh.. my point was they're making a Schizm 2 becuase it made enough money and generated enough interest to warrant a sequel. Duh...
Basically, the first Schizm made them money, thus making another Schizm will be an almost secure income. This you think is perfectly fine whilst I loathe it. I see a production should be the result of personal devotion, not a scheme over possible sales
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 12:54am |
| Deleted User | Um... you misunderstand me. I see income as a possible way of funding your dreams. :
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 1:06am |
2ma2Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Sure, it's the only way to do it. It's how you aquire the funding that bothers my deranged mind.
Look, I'm not looking down on your oppinions, and if my posts make that appearance I'm awfully sorry.
I presume the main difference is that you see that the goal is getting established and I quite simply don't. I prefer having a smaller amount of people enjoying my work (or even knowing the exist) than adjusting it.
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 1:11am |
| Deleted User | 2ma2 - I get the bad feeling we may have been running around in circles all this time agreeing with eachother... soz to act like a bull in a china shop of opinions.
Urgh. Must stop using metaphors.
I respect your opinion entirely, and agree with it wholeheartedly. But I'm a designer, not an artist, so unfortunately although I have artistic sensibilities I also have the unpleasent side effect of craving fame!
One day... power will be mine! And to you, 2ma2, the respect of all your peers!
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 2:05am |
TrumgottistIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 55
Joined: 3 DEC 2002
Status : Online | It's funny that Runaway is used as an example of 2d at it's best... It's actually 3d rendered, it just doesn't look like it!
I say: Use whatever techniques you want. As long as it looks good, I'm happy. If it looks great, I'm even happier. (And by "looking great" I both mean UT2003 and the background art of Discworld 1.)
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 2:35am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Trumgottist (3 DEC 2002 2:04am)
It's funny that Runaway is used as an example of 2d at it's best... It's actually 3d rendered, it just doesn't look like it!
True. They're 3D rendered but bump-mapped with hand-painted graphics. The result is frankly amazing with some very smooth animations and good looking characters.
You know, this could really be the solution to the war(?) between 2D and 3D graphics: publishers would be happy because of the "3D" word and characters would look just like the traditional adventures. I think Pendulo is a company that will give us some very pleasant surprises in the future.
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 2:39am |
rodekillIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 4
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | "d**n good idea. U should be in PR! "
Haha, actually, I'm a graphic designer, so I hang around with a lot of marketing types. I guess some of their madness must have rubbed off on me. *shudder*
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 2:47am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (3 DEC 2002 2:35am)
You know, this could really be the solution to the war(?) between 2D and 3D graphics: publishers would be happy because of the "3D" word and characters would look just like the traditional adventures.
It's called NPR (Non-Photorealistic Rendering). I've seen some demos on the Radeon 9700 Pro (which can do this kind ot thing in real time) and it looked way cool. 3D scene that looks like 2D cartoon.
I forgot my sig.
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 10:39am |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Trumgottist (3 DEC 2002 2:04am)
It's funny that Runaway is used as an example of 2d at it's best... It's actually 3d rendered, it just doesn't look like it!
The backgrounds are painted 2D. I believe the characters are modeled in 3D but then pre-rendered to sprites for use in the game. I don't think there is any 3D engine running the game.
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| 3 DEC 2002 at 11:27am |
jannar85Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 80
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hello there Bill!
Didn't know that you dropped by here, before someone from AGS forums told me....
So how's life treating you?
Got a publisher yet?
I just love 2D gam.es, as you know from before.
And who don't love the wonderful art from Bill Tiller himself?
I don't know of any... But I know that everyone who I know, love your art. They would prefer that, instead of 3D. Ditto.
I hope you won't make your gam.e in 3D now, because that snip you showed me was fantastic! Brilliant! Hundreds times better than the art in CMI.
I'm not sure if you've decided yourself yet, since I don't have time reading seven pages of replies.
Anyway, I would recommend you to visit AG's forums as well to hear their opinion.
Oh, and I would like to thank you the best I can.
You've been a lot of help for us, the Roger Foodbelly team.
Ooooh, I got an idea.... Lucas Forums are full of 2D adventure fans! Why don't you ask them?!
Go now, and ask all!
Oh, and welcome to this place which I don't visit to much.... It's kind of hard to find my way through all of these forums.
Anyway, my best greeting goes to you, and I hope that you'll still work on that 2D gam.e.... The art was frigging amazing!
Regards,&&[i][b]Atle Ragnar Jarnæs Lerøy[/i] | [i]Game Developer[/i][/b]&&&&[url=http://rogerfoodbelly.blogspot.com/]Something is coming...[/url]
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 2:46am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (3 DEC 2002 10:39am)
The backgrounds are painted 2D. I believe the characters are modeled in 3D but then pre-rendered to sprites for use in the game. I don't think there is any 3D engine running the game.
That's right but what if this technology is used in real-time? I guess a high-end home computer could do it but I don't know exactly how it works.
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 3:17am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (4 DEC 2002 2:46am)
That's right but what if this technology is used in real-time? I guess a high-end home computer could do it but I don't know exactly how it works.
Pixel shaders It is possible to extract the outlines of objects by looking at the z-buffer and finding areas with big differences in z space. That's where the object edges will be. And it is also possible to have special textures for the cases where you want a 2D outline even though the object is flat in 3D space.
If you're really interested, go here: http://mirror.ati.com/developer/index.html and look at the Non-Photorealistic Rendering papers.
I forgot my sig.
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 4:51am |
TrumgottistIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 55
Joined: 3 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (3 DEC 2002 10:39am)
The backgrounds are painted 2D. I believe the characters are modeled in 3D but then pre-rendered to sprites for use in the game. I don't think there is any 3D engine running the game.
No, the backgrounds are not painted 2d. I remember seeing a wireframe version of one of them. (I think it was in a trailer for the game.) They are pre-rendered, though. You may be right about the pre-rendered characters, so from a game-engine perspective it may very well be "a 2d game".
But part of my point is that as technology advances, it becomes less important to the actual gamer. Except for the increased system requirements, it won't matter if the game is rendered on the fly by the computer or hand drawn if it looks the same. Just as currently you can't tell if the backgrounds in Runaway are hand drawn or rendered. Just as Disney have used a lot of CG in their movies ever since Basil Mouse.
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 10:27am |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Trumgottist (4 DEC 2002 4:51am)
No, the backgrounds are not painted 2d. I remember seeing a wireframe version of one of them. (I think it was in a trailer for the game.) They are pre-rendered, though. You may be right about the pre-rendered characters, so from a game-engine perspective it may very well be "a 2d game".
Really? o you have a link to this? It seems such a waste of time to model all that detail only to make it look as though it's 2D. It could have been drawn and painted in a fraction of the time for the same look.
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 10:32am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (4 DEC 2002 10:26am)
Really? Do you have a link to this? It seems such a waste of time to model all that detail only to make it look as though it's 2D. It could have been drawn and painted in a fraction of the time for the same look.
Steve,
You'd be suprised what some people would do in the name of art. Seen Stallion; Spirit of the Cimmaron yet? That entire movie keeps moving between 3D and 2D at such a pace and with such smoothness that it's hard to keep up! The BG's in that are 3-dimensional, although you'd be hard pressed to tell, and they even animated the grass. It's a shame the horses appear to float above it sometimes - they have a lack of weight.
Oh yeah... and why are you still posting? Get back to work! We all want to see BS3 finished by the end of the week!
(whipcracking sounds)
Hyaaa!
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| 4 DEC 2002 at 1:42pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (4 DEC 2002 3:17am)
Pixel shaders It is possible to extract the outlines of objects by looking at the z-buffer and finding areas with big differences in z space. That's where the object edges will be. And it is also possible to have special textures for the cases where you want a 2D outline even though the object is flat in 3D space.
You've been very informative as usual
No, the backgrounds are not painted 2d. I remember seeing a wireframe version of one of them. (I think it was in a trailer for the game.) They are pre-rendered, though. You may be right about the pre-rendered characters, so from a game-engine perspective it may very well be "a 2d game".
Hmmm not the in-game scenes but it could be in the cutscenes.
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