| 1 DEC 2002 at 11:21pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Helm, that was a most excellent speech - I could applaud but you wouldn't listen me
Steve, I think developers still have a choice. Look how well did Dark Fall, a Myst-format game or Runaway, a traditional 2D adventure (I predict even more sales if the English version gets published) or Shadow Of Destiny, a full 3D adventure. All of them great games! (don't take what your boss says too seriously ).
Anyway, like Helm said, it's all about the balance. I think a good example would be the original Alone In The Dark: it was a novelty, it sold pretty well and it was an awesome experience.
If the format works well with the game, then go ahead. Judging from what Revolution wants to do with Broken Sword 3, 3D seems to be most appropiate but I don't think it would fit in Mr. Tiller's new adventure.
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 11:21pm |
HelmIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 1 DEC 2002
Status : Online | What you say would be absolutely right, but for the fact that developers rarely have this freedom of choice. This will only happen when a developer has enough money to fund the development of his/her game without interference. Most developers rely on funding from publishers or the game will not be made. Before a publisher will commit to the project they will have to be happy that the product will sell or they are throwing their money away. So you have to develop the game with the publisher in mind.
That's all very true. Let's not make up faux-artistical or development reasons fo using 3d (as many struggle to do) however. 3d usually doesn't help the adventure game medium, not does it usually make it look any better. These aren't the reasons developers use 3d. The reasons ae because the publishers feel safe whenever they hear the words "3d".
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| 1 DEC 2002 at 11:24pm |
HelmIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 1 DEC 2002
Status : Online | I mean what you're essentially saying is: "You're right, but we gotta sell some games!"
This is wrong. If the industry opeates on this premise, change the industry.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 1:19am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Helm (1 DEC 2002 11:24pm)
This is wrong. If the industry opeates on this premise, change the industry.
Not everyone can afford to be a revolutionary - even when a revolution is needed.
But I completely agree with your views on 3D... especially the early 3D games were so much uglier than 2D. Nowadays it's a bit better IF you throw a lot of CPU and GPU horsepower at the problem. I absolutely loved the way Broken Sword 1 looked. So far I have not seen any 3D game that looks half as good.
And by the way I am firmly convinced that "doing things just because you can" is the stupidest thing people can do - unfortunately it seems to be built into the human DNA. So we'll have to live with it until this trait of human nature manages to wipe us out
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 1:54am |
| Deleted User | I don't care, as long as it's got a good story and plays smooth as Laphroiag. OK, Laphroiag isn't smooth. But hey, I like it.
I wish I'd have got into the games industry earlier, back when 2D was all the rage. I'd love to see an amazing 2D adventure. The last Monkey Island didn't do it for me - it had lost it's charm.
I KNOW I KNOW!
Do a Myst-style adventure, and have entertaining 2D animation! I'm up for that!
That would be great!
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 2:05am |
HelmIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 1 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Not everyone can afford to be a revolutionary - even when a revolution is needed.
Well, I'll keep you informed on how my revolutionary take on this actually pays the bills when I settle in the UK in seven months and start a 2d adventure game company with some of the most talented people of the AGS community. So far, it's all talk.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 2:09am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Helm (2 DEC 2002 2:05am)
Well, I'll keep you informed on how my revolutionary take on this actually pays the bills when I settle in the UK in seven months and start a 2d adventure game company with some of the most talented people of the AGS community. So far, it's all talk.
I wish you luck. You'll need it. And I certainly hope you'll be successful
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 2:17am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By monkeybone (2 DEC 2002 1:53am)
Laphroiag.
Laphrodisiac-what?? What's that? Did I miss something?
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 2:19am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Rael (2 DEC 2002 2:16am)
Laphrodisiac-what?? What's that? Did I miss something?
Laphroaig is Scotch whisky. Very good whisky. Rather expensive
It's pronounced approximately like "la-froyg".
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 4:38am |
rodekillIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 4
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Personally I think that if 2d adventure games want to survive, or be reborn, whatever, they've got to start being marketed differently.
There is no way that advertising them along side the 3d FPS blah blah is going to get the kind of sales that are going to make people get up and take notice. The audience isn't reading PC Gamer anymore.
MI3 is one of the most beautiful games of all time, IMO. Sacrificing that for the sake of sales would be incredibly sad. I'm talking, Godzilla stomping on civilians sad.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 7:30am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By rodekill (2 DEC 2002 4:38am)
The audience isn't reading PC Gamer anymore.
And vice versa. People reading PC Gamer are not likely to play adventures.
I wonder how effective an ad would be in, say, NY Times or Newsweek. Or maybe a general computing oriented mag like PC Magazine might be better. But the gaming mags are pretty much a lost cause when it comes adventures (at least in the US).
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 10:12am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Helm (2 DEC 2002 2:05am)
Well, I'll keep you informed on how my revolutionary take on this actually pays the bills when I settle in the UK in seven months and start a 2d adventure game company with some of the most talented people of the AGS community. So far, it's all talk.
Hey, if you need a talented storyboard artist, with experience in the animation and advertising industries... ;-) I also do concept art!
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 10:17am |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (1 DEC 2002 10:28pm)
I'm curious Steve: In your experience, how often (out of 100%) are the publishers correct in their assessment of what games will sell?
I have no real idea, but because of the recent stories of publishers and developers struggling and closing down, it's probably a lot higher than the publishers would like.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 10:33am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (2 DEC 2002 10:16am)
I have no real idea, but because of the recent stories of publishers and developers struggling and closing down, it's probably a lot higher than the publishers would like.
Hey Steve, would I be right in thinking that the computer games industry is suffering as much as the animation and VFX industries? I went to the VFX2002 forums last Saturday, which was really interesting, and found out that Mill Film closed down the previous week. Mind you, they'd suffered from over-expansion on top of their oscar win, but now the Hollywood types are all sounding off that the UK industry is dead. Which is nice, isn't it...
As for the animation industry, I'm really lucky to be employed as far as I'm concerned. I've been in the business a year-and-a-half, and I'm sure what you can imagine what most 2D trad animators are thinking nowadays. Mind you, I know of a few exceptional individuals who've take onboard 3D as directors and lead animators who are very successful.
Luckily, I'm not an animator, and am willing to take on board new technologies. It's just very expensive to run ahead with the field... I have 3D packages, but no time to learn them, and even then - do I really want to? As far as I'm concerned, then I'll just be another animator or modelmaker, and there are already too many out there for me.
I guess that's one of the things Revolution were thinking of when BS3 was being created. Who made the decision to move to 3D? It must've been difficult for fear of alienating your core audience. Plus, genre mixes have always been traditionally unsuccessful - Sacrifice, Giants etc. etc. OK, I know they're RTS, but they're just examples.
I think if you're going to do a 2D adventure nowadays, there are several things to avoid. These include Flash, unless it's done VERRY VERRY well (check out Pesky Animation's The Adrenelini's at pesky.com), and bad hand-drawn animation. I'd suggest to the 2D guy that he gets some talent behind him as far as visual storytelling and animation go before he takes it all on board (look at the last Space Quest - urgh). Oh, and don't leave holes - a well made handcrafted product would be fantastic, if done well.
What I'm trying to say, is that there's no point taking a project on unless you're willing to do it properly. Hence my 200 page board for an 11 min cartoon - the longer it is and the more detail and thought that's put into it, the better it's going to be as an animatic as far as timing and comedy goes.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 10:53am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (2 DEC 2002 10:16am)
I have no real idea, but because of the recent stories of publishers and developers struggling and closing down, it's probably a lot higher than the publishers would like.
You mean a lot lower? As in lower success rate at predicting the marketability of games?
I don't know why my sentences always come out so complicated, dammit
I forgot my sig.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 10:56am |
2ma2Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 7
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Havn't you heard?
Adventures are DEAD!!!11!!
The main reason is that, unlike the golden age of the mid 90's, the majority of the gaming people out there prefer shooting people into bits. Therefor, it's no wonder the larger companies abandoned the adventure genre, because a quality game is
1: Expensive to make
2: It takes alot of time
Now, if this doesn't pay off, there's no reason to continue. Why MI4 and GK3 was ever made was that it's big titles that would guarantee to sale.
So adventures ARE dead. For the large companies. Face it, the revolution has allredy started at it's not about getting big sales anymore. Small and independant companies are popping up like glowing mushrooms on radiated fields, making smaller yet quality products. We have two great benefits from this. The first is that these can allow to make what they want gaming wise, instead of adjusting their product for the markets desires (read: use 3d nah just kidding..), and the second is that they don't need ultra enormous sales to manage to survive.
And since there are people out there willing to buy these games, there's a great possebility of further increase the alternative business which allready started. The revival (or summoning into a flesh eating zombie) of adventures aren't to make them the biggest thing since Quake Halflife: Almost unreal, but a separate movement going around or beside the gaming industry.
"But smaller productions will result in lesser games", you might say. Well that's true to the gaming industries extent. You see, gaming wise, Full Throttle is among the most entertaining adventures ever IMO, and I'd pay up to perhaps between 10-20$ for a new release which the features of FT which is:
1: Lowres graphics. Glorious 320x240 pixels.
2: 256 color graphics
All dialouges had speech, but there wasn't that much of dialouges. The intro animation was impressive, but yet something I could replicate.
So, we have a production that was the biggest thing since sliced bread when it was firstly released, but nowadays, it's quite basic stuff. Still, enjoyable and most likely saleable.
But to answer Tiller's original question:
Think of this. If you're having idea about how to incorporate 3d in a innovative way or to use it's abilities to it's full extent, there's no reason avoiding it. But if you do planning to use 3d just because it'll sell better, then you shouldn't. Artistic reasons are fully acceptable. If you must "sell your soul" in order to survive in this business, why not simply quit and get another job. If having to compromise with your work to suit the audience is the sole reason of you being able to pay your bills, you might aswell drop out from it.
And well.. yes, I'm another loony AGS:er with pathetic dreams and ideas, and I'll prolly join in on the team Helm's talking about.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 1:45pm |
| Deleted User | Adventures, dead? WRONNNG! Adventures are obviously still needed, yet evidently not on the old 2D format - although I'm willing to bet that if Don Bluth put his hand to it, it'd sell in droves... (OK, his recent films sucked, but at least they were quality to look at)
Originally Posted By 2ma2 (2 DEC 2002 10:55am)
Havn't you heard?
Adventures are DEAD!!!11!!
So that's why Schizm 2 is in the making? And why Dreamcatcher games are doing so well? And why BS3 is being made? Sure, it's format changed, but after reading a recent preview of it the ideas remain. 2D, 3D, who cares? If the games crap it'l never sell.
The main reason is that, unlike the golden age of the mid 90's, the majority of the gaming people out there prefer shooting people into bits. Therefor, it's no wonder the larger companies abandoned the adventure genre, because a quality game is
1: Expensive to make
2: It takes alot of time
This attitude explains why there's so much shite around. So you're saying that it's not worth trying? We should all just be subjucated by release after release of FPS' and Halo clones?
I'd like to believe that people with PC's have more brains than that, which is why MMPORGs and RPGs are also massively popular. Explain to me why Age Of Mythology is doing so well... And don't go for that "it's already got a big name producer behind it" pap, because they were released in the last three years, not the mid-nineties.
Now, if this doesn't pay off, there's no reason to continue. Why MI4 and GK3 was ever made was that it's big titles that would guarantee to sale.
Yes, everyone's in the business of making money. But why do adventure games keep on appearing? And how come TLJ was so hugely popular, and is still making money two years after it's release? Becuase there's still a niche in the market to be exploited. It's just because of current trends towards the MMPORG and online FPS, which are now reaching saturation, that single player adventures aren't the norm. Give it time. Something goods gonna come.
So adventures ARE dead. For the large companies.
Until the next trend rears its ugly head, or people start getting bored.
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 1:46pm |
| Deleted User | (cont from previous post)
Face it, the revolution has allredy started at it's not about getting big sales anymore. Small and independant companies are popping up like glowing mushrooms on radiated fields, making smaller yet quality products.
So, it's all dead but it's not because smaller companies are making them and making profit. Oh-kay...... uhhuh... I understand your POV now... NOT!
We have two great benefits from this. The first is that these can allow to make what they want gaming wise, instead of adjusting their product for the markets desires (read: use 3d nah just kidding..), and the second is that they don't need ultra enormous sales to manage to survive.
And your point... is? We get our adventure titles to play, and no one suffers. Which goes against your argument.
And since there are people out there willing to buy these games, there's a great possebility of further increase the alternative business which allready started. The revival (or summoning into a flesh eating zombie) of adventures aren't to make them the biggest thing since Quake Halflife: Almost unreal, but a separate movement going around or beside the gaming industry.
What?! This isn't the Russian Revolution! It's a games INDUSTRY, where people make money! They will be part of the industry, and if they're developing quality product then comapnies such as Eidos and Dreamcatcher will absorb them into their production. It's not independent film, people make games to make money, it's not necessarily an artform. It can be, but any movement within such an all-encompassing industry will eventually be consumed if it's popular enough. If there's a market, then companies will be willing to produce. Which is why Dreamcatcher is flourishing.
I can see this argument coming, about Cryo dissolving recenltly. As for companies like them, they put all their eggs in one basket and produced poor adventures that built on a ten year old concept. They only recently started producing games such as Dune, and unfortunately didn't have the nous to be able to market them properly nor know enough about that type of genre to be able to see how bad the games were. They were band-wagon jumping as sales of their poorly made Atlantis and Nautilus games were floundering. Did it save them? No!
Most companies need to make a killer app before they start making what they want. A lot of these FPS guys may eventually start producing some innovative titles. Look at Raven Software - amazing modders, now making newer, more interesting games. Wait and see.
"But smaller productions will result in lesser games", you might say. Well that's true to the gaming industries extent. You see, gaming wise, Full Throttle is among the most entertaining adventures ever IMO, and I'd pay up to perhaps between 10-20$ for a new release which the features of FT which is:
1: Lowres graphics. Glorious 320x240 pixels.
2: 256 color graphics
All dialouges had speech, but there wasn't that much of dialouges. The intro animation was impressive, but yet something I could replicate.
I'm uttely lost now as to where you're going. I can tell this is a rant. You're saying small companies should be making games like Full Throttle? WHY? Why replicate when you can innovate? Replicate, then innovate by all means. Don't fall by the wayside though, there's no point. Aim high, then see how far you go. If you don't reach the top, then that's not necessarily a bad thing, but you know you tried and if you can prove it first time to the producers that you can make something the public may be interested in then you'll do fine.
Believe me, I know.
So, we have a production that was the biggest thing since sliced bread when it was firstly released, but nowadays, it's quite basic stuff. Still, enjoyable and most likely saleable.
So it can be done then. It doesn't have to be 3D, it'll be saleable. The adventure genre is dead, long live the adventure genre... ??
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 1:47pm |
| Deleted User | (cont. from previous post)
But to answer Tiller's original question:
Think of this. If you're having idea about how to incorporate 3d in a innovative way or to use it's abilities to it's full extent, there's no reason avoiding it.
Unless you can't afford it.
But if you do planning to use 3d just because it'll sell better, then you shouldn't. Artistic reasons are fully acceptable.
Hey, I agree! :
If you must "sell your soul" in order to survive in this business, why not simply quit and get another job.
No souls need to be sold. There's no need. And if you have to just to get your feet off the ground, the why the hell not?
If having to compromise with your work to suit the audience is the sole reason of you being able to pay your bills, you might aswell drop out from it.
You don't have to compromise. If it's an artistic venture, then you shouldn't expect anything back from it unless you get incredibly lucky and someone picks up on the idea. If you need money, then you need to compromise, otherwise why should people give it to you? You need to differentiate between business and art.
Thats how TV programmes get made - you develop, say, ten ideas and try to sell them, not just one. If the one that gets made isn't the one you want, which is often the case and usually that idea will get changed, then if you do it well and impress the right people they'll give you more of a free reign next time. From what I understand, the games industry is the same.
And well.. yes, I'm another loony AGS:er with pathetic dreams and ideas, and I'll prolly join in on the team Helm's talking about.
OK. Now I'm confused.
Am I just being ridiculously nasty, or have I made some points?
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| 2 DEC 2002 at 2:13pm |
rodekillIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 4
Joined: 2 DEC 2002
Status : Online | "People reading PC Gamer are not likely to play adventures. "
Yeah, that's what I meant.
I'm thinking maybe advertising in book stores would be an interesting idea. If you sell them as 'interactive stories' rather than straight out 'games', there may be a different response to them.
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