| 4 NOV 2002 at 6:39pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | 2D or 3D... it's your choice. We all have varied preferences here, and I'm certain the same can be said of other adventure game forums. Personally, I like both equally.
gita
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| 4 NOV 2002 at 7:31pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | If you haven't read it, be sure to check out this article on development of GK3, Sierra's first (and last?) 3D adventure game:
http://www.drizzle.com/%7Escottb/publish/gk3_postmortem_draft.htm
Notice that the decision to go 3D caused Sierra no end of grief.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with 2D. If someone tells you otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about
What I dislike about 3D games? Blocky characters/objects, heavy hardware requirements, compatibility problems. Just about every 3D game seems to have at least one of these problems.
A good compromise seems to be the approach taken by The Longest Journey or Syberia. Classical 2D environment but 3D characters. That way the characters can be very detailed without killing performance.
All this is not to say that 3D games are bad. Gabriel Knight 3 is a great game. At the end of the day, it's not 3D or 2D that makes a good game.
You will find that some people love 3D games because they're 3D and others hate 3D games for exactly the same reason.
I forgot my sig.
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| 4 NOV 2002 at 7:47pm |
bleepnikPrivate Detective
Posts : 544
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Umm... yeah, what Michal said, far more eloquently than I.
g
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| 4 NOV 2002 at 8:11pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I happen to love old school 2D adventures. If you make a 2D adventure I promise I'll buy it!! (hey, you could have already one buyer!)
No, seriously. Follow Michal's advice; he knows his stuff.
I would say that, right know, the market is filled with adventures that has at least 3D characters or are totally in 3D. A 2D adventure certainly would make a difference. You even can wait and see if Tony Tough has good sales.
My advice: do the adventure as you would want it to be (be it 2D or 3D). Don't try to please the market.
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| 4 NOV 2002 at 11:43pm |
SCiVPrivate Detective
Posts : 671
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The decision to go 3D isn't what caused Sierra the grief, the way how it was done did, but that's beside the point of this thread.
To me it really doesn't matter if it's 2D or 3D, as long as it's done well and it creates a world in which I can imagine myself being in. So far though, I've seen very few 3D worlds which did this for me (exceptions are GK3 and GTA3). I also have no particular preference for 3d looking 2d graphics (TLJ) or cartoon style (MI,GK1).
To me the story and feel I get from the back of a package (or screenshots) decide whether I buy a game, not the graphics (as long as it's not crappy )
Playing: World of Warcraft / Monkey Island SE&&Reading: Worldwar: Upsetting the Balance - Harry Turtledove&&Watching: Repo! The Genetic Opera
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| 4 NOV 2002 at 11:49pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SCiV (4 NOV 2002 11:43pm)
The decision to go 3D isn't what caused Sierra the grief, the way how it was done did, but that's beside the point of this thread.
Sure it was - because the decision was made without knowing what was involved. They just said, "3D games are cool, let's make one" and sort of forgot that they never did that before and had no experience. The problem wasn't the decision to go 3D per se, it was the decision in Sierra's situation at that point.
My point is, if someone knows how to make a 2D game but has no 3D experience, making a 3D game is probably going to cause lots of trouble.
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 12:31am |
SCiVPrivate Detective
Posts : 671
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Let's continue the Sierra part of this thread in:
http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=AdvGameDiscuss;action=display;num=1036334021...
Playing: World of Warcraft / Monkey Island SE&&Reading: Worldwar: Upsetting the Balance - Harry Turtledove&&Watching: Repo! The Genetic Opera
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 6:15pm |
Erwin_BrPrivate Detective
Posts : 455
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | My personal preference would be 2D. Why? Because 3D doesn't capture the warmth, depth, emotion, etc.
3D almost always looks the same.
Example: When I look at a picture I can say: 'Hey, that's the work of Purcell' or 'Hey, that's the work of Tiller.'
Hand-drawn art shows much more than just a pretty background or a pretty object, which (IMHO) 3D does.
It's hard to describe exactly what I mean, but I hope you got an idea.
--Erwin
[url=http://justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/BadTiming/index.html][img]http://erbserv.emptyhouse.net/public/images/bt-forumbanner.gif[/img][/url]
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 6:43pm |
mbc841Space Cadet
Posts : 194
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I agree. 3D sort of looks like it was mass-produced, whereas 2D has a much more detailed, original look to it. I personally LOVE 2D, but I have enjoyed a many a 3D games as well. As for game development, I really only intend to make 2D games.
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/TheArrangement/index.htm][[img]http://www.justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/TheArrangement/Graphics/banner1.jpg[/img][/url]
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 6:59pm |
Erwin_BrPrivate Detective
Posts : 455
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I loved Grim Fandango, it's one of my favourite games. The 3D graphics were fantastic!
But you know what? I saw some original Grim Fandango concept art at LEC's 20th anniversary site and I was amazed! Maybe this game should've looked even better in 2D!
That, of course, we will never know. The game did look great in 3D after all, but that picture certainly caused me to think about it. How would it have looked in 2D?
I'm talking about this picture: http://www.lucasarts.com/20th/images/concepts/9.jpg
--Erwin
[url=http://justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/BadTiming/index.html][img]http://erbserv.emptyhouse.net/public/images/bt-forumbanner.gif[/img][/url]
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 10:23pm |
BTillerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 13
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Ah! you were captured by the magic that is Peter Chan. I don't think he has ever done better art then he did for Grim Fandango. I agree with you, I wish the game were made up of his illustartions. The game looks great as is, but if he had done each backgound himself...I am drooling just thinking about it.
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 11:32pm |
Erwin_BrPrivate Detective
Posts : 455
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I'd love to see more of his Grim Fandango art.
It's showing emotion, something that is very hard to accomplish with polygons.
--Erwin
[url=http://justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/BadTiming/index.html][img]http://erbserv.emptyhouse.net/public/images/bt-forumbanner.gif[/img][/url]
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| 7 NOV 2002 at 11:52pm |
SCiVPrivate Detective
Posts : 671
Joined: 22 OCT 2002
Status : Online | How would GF have looked like in 2D? Well probably not very different from what we've gotten. I have to agree that the concept art looks great, but it looks so great because of the level of detail.
A level of detail which would cost a small fortune to animate the 2D way, and which would take a long time to produce. Remember that each frame (24/30 in 1 second) would have to be made with this much detail.
Though I'm fairly optimistic that eventually, 3D graphics will lead to these kind of graphics. Just look what has been accomplished in the last 15 year.
The famous "Luxor Jr." movie by Pixar was hightech 15 years ago, they did something great back then. When I purchased my current graphicscard (ATI Radeon) I got the same movie, but it was rendered in realtime on my PC.
Playing: World of Warcraft / Monkey Island SE&&Reading: Worldwar: Upsetting the Balance - Harry Turtledove&&Watching: Repo! The Genetic Opera
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| 8 NOV 2002 at 1:50pm |
Erwin_BrPrivate Detective
Posts : 455
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SCiV (7 NOV 2002 11:52pm)
How would GF have looked like in 2D? Well probably not very different from what we've gotten. I have to agree that the concept art looks great, but it looks so great because of the level of detail.
A level of detail which would cost a small fortune to animate the 2D way, and which would take a long time to produce. Remember that each frame (24/30 in 1 second) would have to be made with this much detail.
Though I'm fairly optimistic that eventually, 3D graphics will lead to these kind of graphics. Just look what has been accomplished in the last 15 year.
The famous "Luxor Jr." movie by Pixar was hightech 15 years ago, they did something great back then. When I purchased my current graphicscard (ATI Radeon) I got the same movie, but it was rendered in realtime on my PC.
Erm, these backgrounds never were fully animated in Grim Fandango. Only parts of the scenerey are animated (like the fan in the mail room or the water around the Blue Casket).
[url=http://justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/BadTiming/index.html][img]http://erbserv.emptyhouse.net/public/images/bt-forumbanner.gif[/img][/url]
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| 9 NOV 2002 at 12:37pm |
JonasKyratzesSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 280
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I like both kinds equally. It all depends on the game.
It's the designer's choice.
[i]
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| 11 NOV 2002 at 8:24pm |
LagavulinPrivate Detective
Posts : 475
Joined: 21 OCT 2002
Status : Online | :
2D or 3D
The answer to that is:
It does not matter, THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS with adventure games is not if it is 2D or 3D.
IT`S
- THE STORY & THE PUZZELS !!!!!!!!!!!
FOR THE MOMENT I AM PLAYING ON MY Win 7&&&&Recently Played&& ark Fall Lost Souls,Outcry,SH vs A Lupin,Tales of Monkey Island,Still Life 2,Sinking Island,Pandora Directive (RP),The Lost Crown
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| 12 NOV 2002 at 2:39pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | It's not just a case of style preference, but also how you want to approach the way the player interacts with the environment through the main character, the type of gameplay (beyond the traditional puzzles) and the platforms the game is intended to appear on.
There are also other considerations, too. If the main character has a large number of costume changes, then the 2D sprites animation files have to be created for each of the costumes - with 3D you simply change the mesh and textures and the animation is applied to the new mesh. You can also have different characters sharing animation sets which helps. Of course, you could always create the characters and anims in 3D and then render out and convert to 2D sprites.
When we started planning Broken Sword 3 we decided to go with full 3D because we felt it gave us the chance to expand on the traditional Adventure "vocabulary" at the same time as allowing us to approach a multi-platform release in a realistic manner. Many hardcore BS fans have been against the move to 3D, but many have been won over by the screenshots we've shown. Time will tell...
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| 14 NOV 2002 at 9:41am |
BTillerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 13
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I am going to assume by what you mean by ”fully 3d” is real time 3d, no pre rendered 3d or a 2D/ 3D mix like Grim Fandango and Escape from Monkey Island.
I have worked on one pre rendered 3d game (Rebel Assault), and three real time 3D games (IJ and the Infernal Machine, the Arena Net game, and EA’s Lord of The Rings game). So I have seen the advantages of both 2D and 3D.
For an action games real time 3D is absolutely the way to go, but for a pure adventure game I think real time 3d is too limiting as far as the environment and background art are concerned. I really feel the atmosphere and environment are more important in adventure games than the character animation, because of the fact the player spends so much time exploring and looking for clues. Plus the player often stands in the same location over and over again while solving a puzzle or talking to the myriad NPCs. The player is going to see these locations over and over again, and they are on screen for such a long time, they better not be boring.
I just think if one is going to use 3d in an adventure game, use pre rendered 3D backgrounds with real time characters. They game will look much better if you don’t limit your environment artists.
-Bill Tiller
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| 14 NOV 2002 at 10:08am |
BTillerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 13
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | "The answer to that is:
It does not matter, THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS with adventure games is not if it is 2D or 3D.
IT`S
- THE STORY & THE PUZZELS !!!!!!!!!!! "
Yes, I am well aware of that, though I disagree with you that art and animation are not important. If they were not important at all, text adventures would be more popular then imaged based adventure games.
Also I think story is bit overrated. The Secret to Monkey Island, my favorite adventure game, has a very simple story, but yet it is a great adventure game- boy wants to be pirate and has to pass three tests, meets girl, girl gets kidnapped, hero rescues girl.... sort of. Pretty simple. Monkey Island Two is even simpler then that- boy wants to find treasure map. Though not as good as MI1, it is still a fun game.
I do think an excellent story can elevate a good game to being a great game. But what is more important, I feel, is to find the right blend or balance of all three: story, puzzles, and art.
Also the topic of this thread what one prefers to develop in, 2D or 3D, not what is the most important aspect of an adventure game. Though that is an excellent topic, one maybe we should start.
-Bill Tiller
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| 14 NOV 2002 at 1:05pm |
RevliskciPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 9 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Heh. I though it was rather funny of Diamond to champion the cause of 3D, when his avatar is that of George Stobart, a 2D animated character
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| 14 NOV 2002 at 2:35pm |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Revliskci (14 NOV 2002 1:05pm)
Heh. I though it was rather funny of Diamond to champion the cause of 3D, when his avatar is that of George Stobart, a 2D animated character
I have been working on BS games in one capacity or another (with other games in between) for nearly 10 years - it seemed fitting.
I wasn't trying to champion 3D in terms of wanting every game to move to 3D (that would kill variety in an instant) but rather explaining why we at Revolution were choosing to move to 3D.
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| 14 NOV 2002 at 4:22pm |
Erwin_BrPrivate Detective
Posts : 455
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | There are also other considerations, too. If the main character has a large number of costume changes, then the 2D sprites animation files have to be created for each of the costumes - with 3D you simply change the mesh and textures and the animation is applied to the new mesh.
Hmmm, making things easier shouldn't be the reason to decide what style (2D or 3D) you're going to pick.
Of course I'm not talking about issues such as possibilities, money, etc. (2D animation is going to take more time, costing more money which counts in our not-at-all-perfect world.)
--Erwin
[url=http://justadventure.com/IndependentDevs/BadTiming/index.html][img]http://erbserv.emptyhouse.net/public/images/bt-forumbanner.gif[/img][/url]
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| 20 NOV 2002 at 5:36am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The only 3d adventure I have enjoyed was GK3. But at the same time this doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better in 2d.
As many people have said before 3d characters are blocky and they have a 'robot' feeling in them, that makes me dislike 3d graphics.
Bill if the producers are making your life difficult about the use of 2d, why don't u bring as examples 2d games that sold good. TLJ sold more than 450,000 , Syberia is doing quite good in sales according to all indications so far (though I don't have an official number) and GK2 sold 400,000 copies (ok it was fmv but the gameplay was in 2d) while GK3 that was in 3d sold about 150,000 if I remember well another thread here in JA.
So this means that 3d does not equal instant money. Especially in the adventure genre it usually means loss, because the hardcore adventure fans are not so fond of 3d. I remember reading also that Grim Fandango did not sell good as a game, and I am actually quite happy about that because I was not fond of its graphics/interface.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 20 NOV 2002 at 10:16am |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (20 NOV 2002 5:36am)
As many people have said before 3d characters are blocky and they have a 'robot' feeling in them, that makes me dislike 3d graphics.
But this would be the fault of the character modellers and animators. I've seen "robotic" looking animation in 2D games, too.
You use TLJ and Syberia as examples of 2D games that are doing well, yet they use 3D characters. Are they blocky and robotic?
If I were in Bill Tiller's position and wanted to do a 2D game, I'd want to do the whole thing in proper 2D with painted backgrounds and 2D animated sprites. In my opinion, Bill's painted backgrounds are far superior to the pre-rendered backgrounds of TLJ.
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