| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:30am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | The one where the correct solution is asking "what would the other guy tell me"? That's a basic exercise in logic
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:34am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Man, I loved that movie!
"ance, magic, dance, magic..."
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:40am |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Asking "What would the other guy tell me" is the easy part.
It's figuring out just what to DO with that information that's unbearably difficult
Lemme see if I remember....
If the guy tells you "Yes", then that means if you had asked what he would personally say, he'd have said "No." This means that if he's lying, the other guy would say yes.. But if the other guy's lying, he'd have said yes, but would have meant no.. and that means that the first guy is telling the truth... and which way is the right way again? ???
You see? Impossible
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:44am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | The pillar puzzle in TLJ was one of the things I LIKED about the game. Just when I was about to lose it, it suddenly made sense and I tore back across the island and solved it.
What I DISLIKE about adventure games is that there aren't enough moments like that. Most puzzles are either too hard or too easy. Obsidian did it right for me. So did Exile. Discworld (I'm playing it now) isn't doing it for me. Too hard or absurd or something. I can't think of a too easy example at the moment.
I like that subtle balance between intuition and logic, not just all one or the other. I know, I know, it ain't easy.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:44am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | You see? Impossible
Actually, no!
Its a simple math problem of combinations. You can solve it quickly if you write it on paper. The idea is that, by asking one question, theres only one (and only *one*) possibility left to the problem.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:56am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Rael is right...
Suppose the true answer is "yes". You ask one of the guys. There are two possibilities:
1) You asked the liar. The other guy would have said "yes" but because the liar is who he is, he'll tell you "no".
2) You asked the truthful guy. The liar would have said "no" and the truth speaking fellow will tell you so.
In both cases, you'll hear "no" and the true answer is "yes". If the true answer was "no", both would tell you "yes".
Makes sense?
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:58am |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Okay then....
The man on the right is wearing a blue shirt. The man on the left is wearing red. Each is guarding a room. You don't know which is telling the truth and which is lying. You ask the man in red "What would the blue man say if I asked him, is this the right room to choose?" The red man answers "He would say that it isn't."
So, explain how it would work, from that. And then explain how it would work if he had answered "He would say that it is."
In order to pass this question, you have to explain it so that everyone can understand it, so show clearly all workings
(Yes, I admit that I'm only asking you to do this so that I can finally understand how this works )
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 3:20am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | If you put it like this... again, there are two possibilities:
1) Man in red speaks truth. So, since the man in blue would really say "it isn't" but he's the liar, the room is the right one.
2) Man in red lies. So, since the man in blue would in fact say "it is" and he was telling the truth, the room is the right one.
If the answer you got was the opposite, just swap "is" for "isn't". Lemme know if anything's unclear.
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 4:40am |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, yes and no...?
Psybafire, a third of my waking thoughts are about adventure games . That's me all the way...I always compare things to Adventure games or if I see something that was in an Adventure game I stop and daydream of replaying that game.
I can stand almost anything in an Adventure game, poor story, poor subtitles, chunky 3D animations. The only thing that makes me want to scream and punch my roommate in the finger is illogical puzzles. Aggrevates me......
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 5:25am |
| Deleted User | Why do males have to make such a deal about an Adventure game's
"strategy"? Females play these games and act on INSTINCT
How many of you guys have played Pharaoh and that ilk? Or, even, The Sims? (yawn!)
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 6:29am |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, I've read it over and over, sketched it out on paper, and still don't get it. And would you believe that my IQ's 142, and I still can't figure out this damn thing
Anyway, it's all very off topic, so maybe we should move it to notes and let this discussion continue as it should be
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 7:36am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Wolfboy (5 NOV 2002 6:29am)
Well, I've read it over and over, sketched it out on paper, and still don't get it. And would you believe that my IQ's 142, and I still can't figure out this damn thing
No, I wouldn't believe that. Mine's less than that and I have no trouble understanding this problem
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 11:00am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Well, I've read it over and over, sketched it out on paper, and still don't get it. And would you believe that my IQ's 142, and I still can't figure out this d**n thing
Ok, just to go even further off topic, heres a nice one:
Three prisoners, one of them blind, looking at each other (one prisoner looks at the other two). Five hats: two whites and three reds.
The guard puts a hat in each prisoner's head. He tells them that if they find out which hat is in their heads they'll be set free but, if they fail, they'll be punished to death.
First prisoner looks at the other two and says nothing.
The next one, also looks at the other two and doesn't say a word.
Now, its the blind prisoner's turn and he actually finds out correctly which hat he has in his head!
How in heavens did he manage to do that?
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 11:08am |
TeoSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | There is nothing I really dislike, but I tend to think games set in the old egypt is quite boring. unless they have a touch of sci-fi/magic to them.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 11:41am |
BTillerIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 13
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Things that really bother me about some adventure games::
-Puzzles with no hint or clue (even crossword puzzles give you a clue)
-Endless walking from one place to another (Pssst. Game designers, walking around all the time does not increase entertainment. They edit out mundane tasks in movies for a reason- they are boring!)
-Bad interfaces (Sacrifice scintillating art for legibility and ease of use, please!)
-Dieing (If I wanted to die a lot I would go play System Shock 2)
-Hidden objects i.e. pixel hunting.
-Bad Writing. (if you can’t write well at least have cool puzzles and art, and just keep your dialog short that way your player won’t have to endure it for long)
-Bad Art ( well, if you can’t do good art, maybe you should just stick to text adventures)
-Long cinematics (Why should I pay $30 for a bad film when I can pay $7 to see another Michael Bay film. It is just as bad but a lot cheaper, with better color and higher resolution. Stop trying to be filmmakers. There is reason why you are making games, and not films)
-Bad voice acting (just use AFTRA actors. There are thousands of them out there. And some are really good. Trust me, a professional actor is almost always going to be better then your lead programmer or the receptionist. Remember, you get what you pay for)
What I love about adventure games:
-Good art
-Good animation
-Clever puzzles.
-Vibrant atmosphere
-Being able to alter the game world somehow.
- Complex stories.
-Character Development
-Good Music
-Good humor
-Exploration.
-Wish fulfillment ( I get to play someone I would like to be, visit aplace I want to go, and do things I can never do)
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 12:12pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dabomb765 (4 NOV 2002 7:12pm)
What I really HATE is the puzzles in which you have to turn a wheel or pull levers or push buttons or do some crazy combination thing. It really takes the realism from most gaming expereince. Also musical puzzles are a big no no for me.
You said it. I call it the Myst-effect that invaded my favourite genre in the mid-90s and never left. Me hates Myst effect.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 2:56pm |
bistroSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 240
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | What I really HATE is the puzzles in which you have to turn a wheel or pull levers or push buttons or do some crazy combination thing. It really takes the realism from most gaming expereince. Also musical puzzles are a big no no for me.
Soooo.....this mechanical "Myst-effect" isn't realistic? Actual buttons and levers as opposed to having to put together a fishing pole made out of a troll's ear, vines and a rubber ducky? What is your definition of "realism"?
(No flames here...just found that statement kinda confusing...) What kind of puzzles would fit your idea of "realism"?
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 5:00pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | /me pretends not to be excited that Bill Tiller has posted.
I'm glad somebody posted a comprehensive list of adventure design flaws. I love adventures as much as the next forum member, but that doesn't mean some of them aren't riddled with bad design.
The long cinematics thing especially needed mentioning (and I think long dialogue sequences that the player has no control over should be included in that). Here we have an interactive medium, and some designers decide to use it to make the player sit around watching the game, rather than playing it.
I dislike:
Unfair puzzles (fill in your own definition here).
Anything that makes it less convenient for the player to perform actions in the gameworld, which includes awkward interfaces and long journey times between locations.
Unfunny jokes.
Lack of subtitles.
Lack of subtlety.
Lack of sub... stop it, Nellie)
Clues that are only provided once, and that render a puzzle unsolveable if the player missed it.
Lack of variety of puzzles (use X with Y, use X with Y, use X with Y, etc. Or... fiddle with machine, fiddle with another machine, fiddle with yet another machine, etc.)
Gameworlds that feel 'dead'.
Providing the player with the power to alter events, but making it difficult for the player to predict what effect their actions will have (which defies the point of having a choice).
Puzzles that are like this:
MAN: You can't go in there, sir. It's members only.
PLAYER: Can't you make an exception?
MAN: No. Now leave me alone - I'm daydreaming about the motorbike I'm going to buy when I save up enough money.
*player leaves. A few minutes later, they find a motorbike magazine lying on the floor*
PLAYER: Would you like this?
MAN: Yes, please! Well, I guess there's no harm in letting you in...
Often repeated scenes that are UNSKIPPABLE!
Information that is essential to solving a puzzle, but that the player must die to obtain
Mazes (of the Zork sort, not the Monkey Island sort).
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 6:02pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | A lot of the dislikes I'm seeing seem to relate to lack of story. To me story is the engine that propels me though the game. And story isn't always just the typical Quest stuff, oh go off and kill monsters, find the artifact, key, crown, book, whatever. Story is what makes you want to get THROUGH the puzzle and on down the road. It can be in the game and never even talked about. It's what gives the game that special something. It's the pattern inherent in the game. It's usually because someone has a vision and not because they've played aa lot of other games or read a lot of genre fiction and want to recreate their favorite SF, Horror, Fantasty book on computer.
And yeah, Bill Tiller is right. AFTRA actors are inexpensive. I've made a few educational videos and even for such cheesy fare as that the actors were beating down our door to get the silly parts. Stop using the receptionists!!!
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 6:24pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Rael (5 NOV 2002 11:00am)
Three prisoners, one of them blind, looking at each other (one prisoner looks at the other two). Five hats: two whites and three reds.
The guard puts a hat in each prisoner's head. He tells them that if they find out which hat is in their heads they'll be set free but, if they fail, they'll be punished to death.
First prisoner looks at the other two and says nothing.
The next one, also looks at the other two and doesn't say a word.
Now, its the blind prisoner's turn and he actually finds out correctly which hat he has in his head!
How in heavens did he manage to do that?
If prisoner one had seen two white hats, he would have known that he had a red. So, he sees either two red hats, or one red and one white.
Prisoner two, if he had seen a white hat on the blind prisoners head, would know that he had a red hat on (otherwise prisoner one would have figured out his own hat).
Thus, prisoner three knows that he must be wearing a red hat. Well, if he has any faith in the intelligence of his companions, that is.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 7:48pm |
dabomb765Space Cadet
Posts : 122
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well if someone living in a fantasy world would probably use troll ears etc. to solve a puzzle. Thats what is real in that fantsy world. However you have to ask yourself why would anybody put a bunch of levers and buttons in the middle of a door. The answer would be because "the badguy" doesnt want any one to enter to the other side. Well wouldnt the badguy just use a lock accessed by a key. I mean why would anyone put a contraption which allows access to those who know how to use it.
I bet you nobody is going to understand my message. oh well.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 9:13pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | dabomb, I understand you perfectly. A lever puzzle lock makes no sense because
- it is bloody inconvenient for the rightful owner of what's behind the door
- it does not keep out intruders.
Hence it is a useless lock. As you say, a regular lock with a key is infinitely more efficient and effective.
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 9:21pm |
NellieSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 359
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Black Dahlia suffered from this a lot.
The Nazi's have three safes containing the treasures they stole. Instead of making safes that nobody can open without the combination/key or some high explosives, they decide to make safes that any passing fool with time to spare can eventually twiddle open.
A guy lives in an extremely run-down loft - a real dive. He can't afford any decent chairs or tables, but he can afford to fit a specialised lock to his chest of drawers, and to buy an expensive-looking puzzle box.
That's just the two worst examples. And I consider Black Dahlia to be one of the best attempts I've ever seen to blend twiddle puzzles into a coherent storyline.
[b]£1bn -[/b] Amount British government has pledged to paying off debt of poorest nations over next 10 years.&&&&[b]£5bn -[/b] Amount British government has already spent on Iraq campaign.
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| 5 NOV 2002 at 10:32pm |
| Deleted User | For example : Rhem. It's like basically more slide shows...and more and its not that good . Lots of machine puzzles. Combination stuffs. Even the intro's like you have to through too many tunnels.
One thing I really hate about some adventure games are that the time I have to spend to find one particular object and to put it into an item or some sort. What's more irritating is when the surrounding area is really dark. How am I suppose to see it without the cursor giving any hints . It makes the storyline Dull.
If the graphics aren't what I expected. Example:Casanova. He doesn't have to run like that. With the screen changing every second into one position. It is distracting.
Major spoiler for games IMO are bad bad storyline.
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