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| 27 JUN 2003 at 8:02am |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I am such a complete novice, but am quite interested in the techniques used in programming and writing IF. I found -after some googling - http://www.inform-fiction.org/ . It provides links to several documents that teach newbies how to use the Inform-language. It's fun to read through, even if you don't plan to write your own IF...
By the way, is the 'inform-grammar-library' translated to other languages? I remember having played a dutch IF-game once a long time ago...
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 8:51am |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | thanks, Ron...excellent link, exactly what I was looking for!
I'm sure someone with more experience than I can answer your question about language.
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 11:25am |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Just curiosity: Are you planning to write IF yourself or are you just interested in the techniques?
According to your replies in my other topic you're also not really an experienced IF-player. But on the other hand; that might lead to a very new and original IF-game.
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 12:16pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Yeah, the page Ron has given you is the best place to start.
If you want to code in Inform's Z-machine, make sure you get the Designer's Manual from there.
And the examples which divide the games in chunks look interesting, too.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 1:10pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ron (27 JUN 2003 11:25am)
Just curiosity: Are you planning to write IF yourself or are you just interested in the techniques?
According to your replies in my other topic you're also not really an experienced IF-player. But on the other hand; that might lead to a very new and original IF-game.
For now, just interested...I love puzzles, knowing how things work, mysteries. If I hadn't been so hell bent on studying art, I would have gone for programming, as logic is my second love.
I would enjoy finding a medium in which I felt comfortable creating games. I do have conceptual ideas for games and puzzles. With me, the key is enjoying the process of doing so. I suppose if I try it and have fun, I'll try creating a game. Sounds like fun.
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 1:19pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Elfstone (27 JUN 2003 12:16pm)
Yeah, the page Ron has given you is the best place to start.
If you want to code in Inform's Z-machine, make sure you get the Designer's Manual from there.
And the examples which divide the games in chunks look interesting, too.
great link, thanks Elfstone.
Inspires another question...
I've only played games in z-code, mainly because I play them on my pda with Frobnitz. I havent' ever tried a game in TADS, for example.
My question to those who have dabbled in creating IF...which programming language is most suitable to novices and what makes a game designer choose one program over another?
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 1:26pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ron (27 JUN 2003 11:25am)
According to your replies in my other topic you're also not really an experienced IF-player. But on the other hand; that might lead to a very new and original IF-game. I think if I were to try, I'd want to find my own voice in the medium. Also one enticement for me was seeing Baf's website's organization by genre...I had no idea there was IF in as many categories as there are movies or novels! such a delightful discovery! Kinda drove it home for me that IF is to graphic adventure what a novel is to a film.
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 2:14pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Hmmm.. I haven't looked at Baf's website... I'm going to check it out since you sound very excited about it!
Gamaholic, keep us informed about your ideas when you want to share them. The combination of someone who loves logic, puzzles, AND studied art definitely sounds promising!
I'd love to try some things for myself in Z-code, but the English language is too much of a barrier to write things myself. I was quite surprised about how easy Inform is to understand, though, especially when you know a little bit about the various programming languages.
Oh, I found two Dutch games in the IF-archive.... They seem to exist after all.
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 2:28pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ron (27 JUN 2003 2:13pm)
Hmmm.. I haven't looked at Baf's website... I'm going to check it out since you sound very excited about it!
Gamaholic, keep us informed about your ideas when you want to share them. The combination of someone who loves logic, puzzles, AND studied art definitely sounds promising!
I'd love to try some things for myself in Z-code, but the English language is too much of a barrier to write things myself. I was quite surprised about how easy Inform is to understand, though, especially when you know a little bit about the various programming languages.
Oh, I found two Dutch games in the IF-archive.... They seem to exist after all.
Baf's rocks! I just found it this week through Elfstone's link in another thread. Had a ball downloading, started with the five star games of course, then the four...then went through the genres, very cool.
If anything comes of my game creating interest, this forum will hear of it first. I do things as the mood strikes, so don't look for anything soon!
I love language...and while I'm primarily visual, I love the challenges of invoking vivid imagery through words. If I did a game, it'd be very easy to envision in the imagination, it would have humor, fantasy, a great sense of fun and beauty, and puzzles based on both logic and wordplay as well as inventory. At least initially, I would aim for a beginning to intermediate level game to encourage lots of volunteer beta testers!
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 27 JUN 2003 at 2:29pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Very cool that you found some Dutch language games...I don't recall seeing any, but if i stumble upon more, i'll let you know!
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 28 JUN 2003 at 1:24pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I would not advise to play all the five star games first cause most of them are hard as well.
Anyway, I would not like you to play them in alphabetical order like crazy me does attempt to do.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 30 JUN 2003 at 12:14am |
HowardSSpace Cadet
Posts : 103
Joined: 10 DEC 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Gamaholic (27 JUN 2003 1:19pm)
great link, thanks Elfstone.
Inspires another question...
I've only played games in z-code, mainly because I play them on my pda with Frobnitz. I havent' ever tried a game in TADS, for example.
My question to those who have dabbled in creating IF...which programming language is most suitable to novices and what makes a game designer choose one program over another?
Inform and TADS are both excellent langauges capable of rendering almost any puzzle you can think of. However, they're not for novices. Some years ago (uh, ok, 15+ years ago) I got pretty good at C and C++ and was a geek to start with so programming came easy for me. The object-oriented nature of Inform was something I took to easily.
More and more folks are writing "how to" and "beginner's" manuals for Inform because jumping in and getting started is not altogether easy. At the site you visited, Inform-fiction.org, you might want to download the Designer's Manual, 4th edition. It starts you from scratch and walks you through all the essentials of Inform. It'll take some time and patience on your part, though.
If you want something to cut your teeth on and help you get acquainted I might suggest AGT - Adventure Game Toolkit. It has a much more gentle learning curve and can create some pretty good games.
Good luck!
Join the Text Adventure Game Renaissance! Visit http://www.malinche.net
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| 30 JUN 2003 at 12:34am |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Thanks for the advice Howard, much appreciated! Where does one find the AGT?
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 30 JUN 2003 at 4:58pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I'm not familiar with AGT. But according to the descriptions on several webpages you have to learn a very simple programming language that can only be used within AGT.
Inform does take some time to learn I guess, but if I ever want to write IF I think I'll use Inform
Gamaholic, I started with the Inform-tutorial and was quite surprised about how easy it is to build a basic-game-world. Of course, special actions are a lot harder to implement but it's fun to see that it only takes a few minutes to build a game with some rooms and usable objects.
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| 1 JUL 2003 at 1:59am |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ron (30 JUN 2003 4:58pm)
I'm not familiar with AGT. But according to the descriptions on several webpages you have to learn a very simple programming language that can only be used within AGT.
Inform does take some time to learn I guess, but if I ever want to write IF I think I'll use Inform
Gamaholic, I started with the Inform-tutorial and was quite surprised about how easy it is to build a basic-game-world. Of course, special actions are a lot harder to implement but it's fun to see that it only takes a few minutes to build a game with some rooms and usable objects.
that's very fun news Ron! are you thinking of creating a complete game?
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 1 JUL 2003 at 3:55pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Gamaholic, I'm not even considering creating a full game. The language is too much of a hurdle, and besides that, I don't think I would be able to come up with a really original idea. It's the technology behind the games that has my interest.
But if I ever have a great idea for an original story or a puzzle I won't hesitate to -try- and implement it in Inform!
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 3:38am |
DrPaulIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 10 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Ron,
Another Inform manual that you should look at is the Inform Beginners Guide by Roger Firth and Sonja Kesserich. It is downloadable (free) from http://www.inform-fiction.org/manual/about_ibg.html
This manual takes you step-by-step through the complete code for 4 (I think) small games. The complete code for each game is in the appendices, and each section of code is very well explained.
It is very nice because you can start out with some working code and then be guided through expanding and improving it as you move along.
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 8:51am |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I already found that one Dr. Paul but thanks for the advice!
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 11:23am |
Boluc PapuccuogluIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 3
Joined: 8 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Although AGT may look simpler at first, I would advise against using it. The reason for this is in AGT you have to program cases for every conceivable input the player is likely to give. In Inform or TADS, however, you program certain "types" of behaviour. For example, if you have a blue door and a green door in your game, you don't have to program that the blue door can be opened and closed and the green door can be opened or closed, etc. You just define a door attribute (or a class) and when describing the world you just say they are doors. (Actually you don't have to even do that, because the door attribute is defined in the library, as well as containers, supporters, lockable objects, etc, etc.) This means you can start on the right foot when designing your first adventure and define the game _world_ and not each and every specific situation the player might find him/herself in.
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 5:41pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | very good info...it does sound like Inform is the way to go...
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 8:06pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Gamaholic, you just made your 666'th post. What about a game about superstition and devil-worship?
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 11:19pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | uh oh... well, i'm posting again to change that number...The Omen was a scarrrry movie..
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 10 JUL 2003 at 11:22pm |
GamaholicPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Ron, seriously...i love the topic... one of my favorite movies is Rosemary's baby...could inspire a very interesting game.
That which makes one happy is not a waste of time
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| 12 JUL 2003 at 10:06am |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Gamaholic, it seems that even after reading the Inform-manuals you stay interested in making IF. What do you think of the Inform-language? Do you have any programming experience of is it a big problem to have to master Inform before being able to make a full game? You seem to have loads of ideas.....
Of course writing the full game first without bothering about Inform and then converting it all into an Inform-gameworld is also a way of creating a game. I guess that a lot of IF-writers write games that way...
Also one person with great writing skills and one who is good at programming can form an ideal IF-writing couple. I don't remember having seen any 'multiple-writer' IF-games yet, though...
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