| 24 APR 2003 at 7:56am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | No matter how great Outcast is it's not an ADVENTURE. Oh wait let me make it simpler for you. It's not an ADVENTURE/ADVENTURE. And no I won't take lessons on what an adventure game is by PC gamer and the likes. And I don't give a shit how much I piss you off by stating the truth...
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 24 APR 2003 at 7:59am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Action/adventure is not its own genre. A subgenre, perhaps. I do NOT consider Tomb Raider an adventure, I consider it an action game, basically a 3D platformer.
Outcast, Redguard, and their ilk, however, ARE adventure games. This is because they focus on characters and dialogue, with plot-based exploration and puzzle-solving. This is what makes an adventure. An adventure does not have to be point and click. You seem to be focusing the definition of adventure down to such a narrow game-type. Why do this? There are a million types of action games, a million types of strategy games, a million types of RPGs. Why must adventures be so special as to be limited to the point-and-click variety? It's ludicrous.
Oh, and I'm not sure why you keep mentioning PC Gamer, because I have no love for them. Gamespot, however, has shown themselves to be very trustworthy (again, try to discredit this and I will post examples) and they called Outcast the best adventuer of '99. They did NOT call Tomb Raider an adventure, by the way.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:08am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I consider Shadow of Destiny an adventure... sure it has a crappy interface imo, but it is an adventure. Largo Winch was also an adventure. It had a crappy interface as well and it really hit the boundaries of an adventure but it was an adventure nevertheless.
Well Outcast is not. You say action/adventure is a sub-genre. Ok so is it a sub-genre of action or a sub-genre of adventure or both? Well, no imo action/adventure is a genre of its own. The reason that stores and magazines called them 'adventures' was because there were not a lot of pure adventure games in the past few years, so in their opinion it was time to redefine the term.
Well imo and I hope in most people's opinions in here adventures never died so there was no reason to redefine the term. And as for Gamespot, I give them credit for covering a lot of pure adventure games, but still they are no experts on them.
I mean Metal Gear Solid and Grand theft auto are not what I'd call adventures
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:15am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Who said adventures died?
As for the subgenre issue, it's really both. For me, I don't use the term action/adventure. If it's closer to an adventure, I call it an adventure, and likewise for action.
This requirement of absolute purity from adventure games is silly. Did people say RTS games weren't strategy games because they were sort of action-ey? Of course not, and if you tell someone "Starcraft isn't a strategy game" they will laugh at you. Diablo is an action-RPG, but it's still an RPG. Again, why are adventure games held to this nonsensical standard of purity? It makes no damn sense to me. If we did what you're suggesting universally, there'd be 50 genres of games! Why not just call it what it's closest to?
I must have missed the memo on the term being redefined. There were adventures with action sequences in the past. All these new hybrid games have done is incorporate them more smoothly.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:23am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By jujigatame (24 APR 2003 8:15am)
Who said adventures died?
Hmm...let me count...1,2,3...yes actually about all of the publications you listed above.
And Quest for Glory series and Full Throttle had action in them but they were adventures. King's Quest 8 however was not an adventure. If you can't see the difference between those, then I guess you wouldn't understand when a game is an action one, even if they gave you Doom to try.
As I said if this is what you want adventures to turn into go ahead, buy your playstation 5 and be a bad-ass biker with 40 different weapons and be proud to be an adventurer. I'll head another direction though... I'll still like adventures even if I will have to call them ADVENTURE/ADVENTURE/ADVENTURE/ADVENTURE in 5 years from now to you, in order for you to understand which genre I mean.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:29am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Well I sure as hell didn't say it. Anyway, we could go on all night about this, but let me just ask you this. What, then, makes an adventure game?
Oh, and you think I don't know what an action game is? JA has labeled NOLF2 an "action/adventure" in ludicrous fashion. Tomb Raider is an action game, not an adventure. Outcast, however, is a very different animal. It seems like you're refusing to acknowledge most of my points. What makes Outcast more an action game than an adventure?
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:49am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | You can download the Inventory 1 where I wrote a short definition of adventure games, in the 'help for beginners' article. But is this how you are going to categorize games, through definition.
Art unfortunately is too much alive to be contained through boundaries of words. Let's take movies for example. If we categorized Star Wars as a movie and you went by definition, you could call it a science fiction movie, as well as an action movie, as well as a comedy.
But if somebody asks you what kind of movie is Star Wars, I don't think you are going to say 'It's science fiction / action / comedy... but you are going to say Science fiction, because this was the focus and that was the way you experienced it, even though if by definition it could fall in all three categories.
There are other movies however which have aspects of two different categories equally distributed. Like Cop of Beverly Hills (with Eddie Murphy) which is an action comedy. So in the end it's how you experience the movie that matters.
So for me, Syberia, TLJ and GK3 felt like adventures while KQ8 and Outcast didn't. For you they might be adventures. I have the impression though that most adventure gamers didn't feel KQ8 and Outcast as adventures. And bringing as examples the publications that you brought above to tell us what's an adventure and what's not is just failing to make any point, since according to them 'Adventures are undoubtly a dead genre'.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 24 APR 2003 at 1:08pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Whoa. Maybe this topic should be moved to 'The Hot Spot.'
While I find jujigatame's argument interesting, on the whole I have to agree with dimi on the difference between adventure and action-adventure. There's a clear distinction between pure adventure games with a few action scenes, such as The Last Express, and games where action is an integral part of the gameplay, such as Deus Ex. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but a lot of adventure gamers don't like action-based games, which is why it's useful to put them in a separate category. There's little scope for confusion, because most games fit very clearly into one category or the other.
I think the vast majority of adventure gamers would agree that adventure games should be classed seperately from action-adventure. But maybe we should have a poll to see? I'd set one up, but I don't know how to do it.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 1:15pm |
VectorIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 70
Joined: 28 MAR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (23 APR 2003 9:26pm)
whoever doesn't already understand that this game is going to suck is a really optimistic person.
WOW! ... to me this is an incredibly shortsighted and ignorant comment. ??? I don't see how you you can make such a hard opinion about a game from a press release and a couple of pictures.
BTW what did you expect from a sequel to Full Throttle. The original was a game that included fighting rival gang members from your bike, there was a demolition derby and you sent cute little furry rabbits into a mine field.
You seriously couldn't expect a sequel not to have action in it also.
Will the game have more action in it? Maybe
Will the game be good or bad? I don't know.
But at least wait for the game to be released before we pass any judgements.
We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later we push up flowers.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 1:40pm |
VectorIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 70
Joined: 28 MAR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Godfather (24 APR 2003 4:27am)
I honestly don't want this to happen but the game is going to such big time! I can even give it a grade
B- Lucas wrong step...
WHAT! How on earth can you possibly grade a game that you haven't played. On top of the fact that the game isn't even on the market yet.
Juji - I need to cry uncle after this one, player reviewers ARE mindless schlubs.
We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later we push up flowers.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 1:48pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By rumtilyerdum (24 APR 2003 1:15pm)
WOW! ... to me this is an incredibly shortsighted and ignorant comment. ??? I don't see how you you can make such a hard opinion about a game from a press release and a couple of pictures.
Thanks!! I'm incredibly good at shortsighted and ignorant comments.
BTW what did you expect from a sequel to Full Throttle.
I expected Ben to have given up the life of sin, and to join a local church where he could read the bible every weekend among the rest peace-loving members of the church.
Actually not... but I'm not in the mood of explaining the differences between adventure with some bits of action inside and action/adventures..... and yeah I expected Full Throttle 2 to be an adventure like the first one was. If the first one and the second one are the same style of game why are people complaining now? Did we get some sort of disease or sth?
But at least wait for the game to be released before we pass any judgements.
If Lucasarts don't want people to pass judgements and make comments, then maybe they shouldn't give out screenshots and press releases. Or should we say sth only if we happen to like what we've been shown, and otherwise shut up and wait for the final version? As people can say good things from what they've been shown so can they say bad things, actually depending on what they've been shown.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with my hard comments but when I like sth I say it, and when I don't like sth I still say it, and I plan keep on doing that till I die actually.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 24 APR 2003 at 2:12pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jujigatame (24 APR 2003 8:29am)
Well I sure as hell didn't say it. Anyway, we could go on all night about this, but let me just ask you this. What, then, makes an adventure game?
Oh, and you think I don't know what an action game is? JA has labeled NOLF2 an "action/adventure" in ludicrous fashion.
I haven't played it yet, but why is that ludicrous? Doesn't it contain a good bit of both action and adventure?
Tomb Raider is an action game, not an adventure.
Outcast, however, is a very different animal. It seems like you're refusing to acknowledge most of my points. What makes Outcast more an action game than an adventure?
Because you spend a good bit of your time killing soldiers and using the same strategies you might use in an action game to defeat them. Your inventory consists mainly of various types of weapons and ammo.
You also spend a lot of time talking to the natives and running errands for them, which is part of the reason some people call Outcast an Action/Adventure/RPG. The gameplay is RPGish in the way you have a large open gameworld to explore and the way you have to run errands to boost your reputation with the inhabitants in order to finish the game.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 2:29pm |
VectorIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 70
Joined: 28 MAR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (24 APR 2003 1:47pm)
If Lucasarts don't want people to pass judgements and make comments, then maybe they shouldn't give out screenshots and press releases.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with my hard comments but when I like sth I say it, and when I don't like sth I still say it, and I plan keep on doing that till I die actually.
Don't worry about hurting my feelings, that aint going to happen.
I agree with you that we can criticize, but I do think there is a difference between making comments and passing judgements.
Seems to me that you have already passed judgement that the game is going to suck.
We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later we push up flowers.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 3:48pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | There is a genre definition for games like Outcast and that's called "Action/Adventure". It's not a pure adventure, that's for sure.
Which doesn't mean that Outcast had no adventurous spirit. The term action/adventure contains "adventure". :
Outcast was one of the best games ever released in that genre.
I stated it earlier sometime, but I didn't have the feeling that the worlds in Outcast are big and they seemed too systematic, like levels in a platform game.
I expected a sequel, but it never came and will probably never be released and that's a pity cause the ending sequence left room for much more. Sad.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 24 APR 2003 at 4:05pm |
JoYSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 208
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Maybe it's just a dirty trick to lure action gamers into buying an adventure game...
JoY
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| 24 APR 2003 at 5:57pm |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | And bringing as examples the publications that you brought above to tell us what's an adventure and what's not is just failing to make any point
No, I think you just missed the point. The original point of listing those publications was not to say "these publications say that Outcast is an adventure game" the point was to say "these publications think Outcast is a better game than GK3."
I haven't played it yet, but why is that ludicrous? Doesn't it contain a good bit of both action and adventure?
This quote was in reference to NOLF2. NOLF2 is NOT an adventure game. Therein lies the problem. Once you make this new action/adventure genre, 90% of the FPSs that have come out in the last 5 years can be considered an action/adventure because they have involved some sort of character interaction, puzzle-solving, or other trait that adventure games carry.
I go by the "keep it simple, stupid" theory of game-typing. We have action games, adventure games, RPGs, strategy games, etcetera. Call a game what it's closest to, what it's spirit is. If we start giving hybrids their own genre names we'll have 50 genres on our hands. Nobody's answered me a key question. What makes adventure games so special that they must be held to a higher level of purity than all other games? iablo is an action-RPG, but it's still an RPG. Most RTS games could be considered action-strategy, but they are still strategy games. Battlezone (going back a few years) was action-strategy, but still action at it's heart. Why, once an adventure game is mixed with any other genre, does it lose it's title, whereas no other genre is like this? Explain it to me.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 6:48pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jujigatame (24 APR 2003 5:57pm)
I go by the "keep it simple, stupid" theory of game-typing. We have action games, adventure games, RPGs, strategy games, etcetera. Call a game what it's closest to, what it's spirit is.
Then Outcast is either action or RPG, but not adventure. The puzzles are like action or RPG-type puzzles - action when you're fighting the soldiers, RPG when you're running errands and gaining reputation.
If we start giving hybrids their own genre names we'll have 50 genres on our hands. Nobody's answered me a key question. What makes adventure games so special that they must be held to a higher level of purity than all other games?
Diablo is an action-RPG, but it's still an RPG.
Actually, that could be debated. It is a lot more about killing the enemies than most RPG's. Do you know of any RPGers who would mind hearing it referred to as Action/RPG?
Most RTS games could be considered action-strategy, but they are still strategy games. Battlezone (going back a few years) was action-strategy, but still action at it's heart. Why, once an adventure game is mixed with any other genre, does it lose it's title, whereas no other genre is like this? Explain it to me.
Because most "action/adventures" are more like action games than adventure games. The puzzles are like the puzzles in action games. Adventure games don't have you developing strategies on how best to kill soldiers the way you do in Outcast.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 7:03pm |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Outcast is certainly not an RPG. It has no character stats, no leveling up, no skills or attributes to improve.
Actually, that could be debated. It is a lot more about killing the enemies than most RPG's. Do you know of any RPGers who would mind hearing it referred to as Action/RPG?
Firstly, this is really not true. There were plenty of dungeon hack RPGs before Diablo, the combat was just never so point-and-click action oriented. Secondly, I'm sure not many people would mind someone calling it an action-RPG, but my whole point is THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT AN RPG!
Sorry, but I don't see how Outcast is any more action than adventure. While playing it I felt the designers were putting character interaction and puzzles ahead of shoot-em-up action, and that its spirit was that of an adventure game. Combat was sometimes necessary, but to be avoided whenever possible. Outcast as an action game is weak, it's the game's adventure aspects that make it strong.
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| 24 APR 2003 at 8:32pm |
copycatSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 293
Joined: 24 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I don't mind if they put a bit of action into an adventure game, as they did in Full Throttle (1), but the more action you put in it, since it is not complementary (?sp) to adventure it takes away a bit of the adventure. And at some point, adventure gamers just say: 'enough is enough' and they drop the game as a likely buy in the future. For some, that boundary is not too high, for others it's a bit higher. So probably there will be some adventure gamers who won't mind the amount of action in the game, but if it rates like MOE, for me, it's a dead fish in the adventure water.
Considering Outcast, in my case that too crosses the line considering the amount of other genre into adventure. Sure, there was a story (a plot) and I liked reading the stories interwoven in the game, but when it turned to action (RTS?) my interest into playing it myself was suddenly gone (PS My brother played it, if you're wondering how I know about this game while I haven't played it myself).
But then again, I don't mind if other people think anything else. I am just one person, other people are allowed to have their own opinion. That is their right, as it is my right to have an own opinion about the game and my opinion is, too, FT2 will not be a game for me.
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| 25 APR 2003 at 2:54am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jujigatame (24 APR 2003 7:02pm)
Outcast is certainly not an RPG. It has no character stats, no leveling up, no skills or attributes to improve.
You can't progress in the game until your reputation is high enough with the natives. I can't recall having to worry about my reputation in any adventure game. Or any action game for that matter. In that way, it resembles an RPG.
My point was not that Outcast is an RPG so much that it isn't an adventure game any more than it is an RPG. It just has too much emphasis on fighting to be considered an adventure. If you don't want to use the well-known label "action/adventure" then you have to put it under the category of action. There are really very few adventure-type puzzles in it and there is a lot of action-type strategy used in killing the soldiers and blowing things up.
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| 25 APR 2003 at 3:03am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | You can't progress in the game until your reputation is high enough with the natives. I can't recall having to worry about my reputation in any adventure game.
There are plenty of adventure games where you have to do things for people to gain their trust or alliance.
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| 25 APR 2003 at 6:33am |
PCG_ChuckIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 37
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Sorry guys, a true adventure game is a text adventure. Those new fangled ones where you click around the screen like Myst are way too action-ey. Why'd they even have to put graphics in adventure games anyway? My imagination and a text parser were all I needed back on my Atari 400.
At least Scott Adams is still around making real adventure games.
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| 25 APR 2003 at 7:10am |
| Deleted User | I'm reading this thread with great interest - it's nice to be on the outside looking in on this fight!
PCG_Chuck - the only reason I'm posting. No point slagging off PC-Gamer totally when this guy keeps posting coherent arguments!
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| 25 APR 2003 at 7:14am |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By PCG_Chuck (25 APR 2003 6:32am)
Sorry guys, a true adventure game is a text adventure. Those new fangled ones where you click around the screen like Myst are way too action-ey. Why'd they even have to put graphics in adventure games anyway? My imagination and a text parser were all I needed back on my Atari 400.
At least Scott Adams is still around making real adventure games.
No Chuckie, those new ones with the graphics, they are called survivor-horror... you know, you can ask the guy who reviewed Post Mortem, he'll tell you, he knows what an adventure is.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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