I missed the thread on DMAs - maybe because it made a one-time appearance on the Home Page 'from the Forums' but never before or after.

Here it is :-

http://www.justadventure.com/forums/posts.asp?t=24353

Originally Posted By Len Green (24 JUN 2012 5:49pm)

I missed the thread on DMAs - maybe because it made a one-time appearance on the Home Page 'from the Forums' but never before or after.

Here it is :-

 

http://www.justadventure.com/forums/posts.asp?t=24353

 

   **********   And the following is what I posted on that threasd an hour or so ago when I saw theb thread )on the Home Page 'From the Forums') before it vanished again !!!

  I somehow missed this thread !

Had I seen it I would most certainly have replied since I hate DRM.

Strangely enough  some veteran gamer sent me an email 3 weeks ago asking my opinion about DRM

I replied my very negative reply!

IRC my reply was a bit repetitive, repeating the same thing in different words - but I think it was comprehensible.

I'll sort out my reply and post it ASAP here !

IL  SENT  TO  A  VETERAN  GAMER  3  WEEKS  AGO !

AGREE opr DISAGREE ??

                         ---------------------------------------------------------------------

     With regard to DRM !!
    Yes I do have an opinion about it and it's an extremely negative one. 
    AFAIK and with my limited knowledge of the financial details etc. involved, I am of the opinion that its object in stopping or even reducing piracy is either zero or very close to zero.  I outline some of my personal opinions below - they are of course only opinions and you or others may quite likely have the diametrically opposite opinions.  But here goes :-
 

IMHO it only penalizes the honest game purchasers whilst leaving the pirates absolutely untouched.
    Furthermore the honest players suffer a double whammy compared to the pirates -they not only have to pay for their games but also in addition suffer the hassles and indignities of all the negative restrictions imposed by DRM.
As opposed to this, the pirates both get their games free and without ANY difficulties or strings or hassles or restrictions,
IMHO, a totally ludicrous situation! 
    Again IMO, DRM has no effect whatsoever on piracy which I know is enormously widespread.  The pirates do not pay a penny for their games and have no restrictions or troubles or disadvantages in playing them - a ridiculous situation compared with the honest folk who continue to pay for their games and are hassled, blocked. And restricted at every turn.
This crazy inversion of logic causes some inherently honest players to pirate their games almost as a matter of "principle".
    Some  other (I don't know how many ?) players are so incensed by the immorality of DRM that they absolutely refuse to buy ANY game at all incorporating it, and IMO possibly as many sales are lost through this as are gained by the possible theoretical reduction of piracy due to their implementation of DRM.
    In addition I think that DRM is immoral.  If you buy a book or some music or any other article and wish to loan it or give it to a member of your family or friend as much as you wish there is no restriction.  

As you probably know I have worked very closely with one Developer for eight years; pre-alpha, alpha, and beta testing his 8 games and writing walkthroughs for them and am his "Creative Consultant".  He is now working on his game # 9.  We have discussed (on Skype) this matter a few times and, although I do not want to quote him, I believe he too thinks identically about MDNA
    If I am not mistaken, he knows ALL TOO WELL that a very great percentage of his games are pirated but nevertheless refuses to insert any DRM in any of the games he sells – he gas no control over those sold via his various distribution portals!!

As far as I understand it, the whole cumbersome and IMO unethical rigmarole of DRM is in order to stop or seriously reduce piracy.
But IMHO it does not do that – if any accurate stats came out it night even be found that it INCREASES piracy!
For those who know how to file share all games freely CONTINUE TO DO SO ANYWAY,
Whereas those who do not know how to, or can't be bothered to, or just are too honest to do so DO NOT NEED ANY HORRIBLI LIMITING DRM's ANYHOW!!!

I think the DRM topic is in the hot spot section, Len, probably because people have strong opinions about it.

Originally Posted By Lady Kestrel (24 JUN 2012 6:24pm)

I think the DRM topic is in the hot spot section, Len, probably because people have strong opinions about it.

Hi Lady K :-

Yes I knoww

But that is no reason whatsoever IMO why it should have been *DELETYED* (in addition ) from the Front Page list !!!

Incidentally I have come across very few polayers/gamers (such as all on this site) who **SUPPORT** DRM's and hence I see little reason for it to be placed on the "Hot Topics" list but rather on the Genral Adventure games list since the vast majority are uploaded now - and unfortunately nearly all with varying degrees of DRM restrictions.

             CHEERS !

Having gone back to the front page a few times, it looks to me as though the situation might be a little more interesting than the thread's entry being simply deleted.

Specifically, based on a few quick tests on my part, it appears that the Hot Spot thread is represented there if one is not logged in, and missing if one is logged in (at time of writing, that is).

Perhaps Hot Spot threads are intended to be hidden to non-members and visible to logged-in members, but the logic has been accidentally reversed.

(Such a restriction might perhaps be a safety precaution: it means that some degree of acceptance of terms and conditions might be better argued than with a non-member, or might be intended to reduce the probability of a passing browser spotting a potentially inflammatory thread, then registering simply to troll it.)

For what it's worth, I don't really use the front page; I simply come directly into the fora and skim down the sections looking for sufficiently recent last posts.

I don't look for topics on the front page either, Thaumaturge, but come directly here.  I doubt if anybody is deleting the topics on the front page on purpose.  It may be just a glitch in the software.

On my iPad and laptop, I'm logged in and the DRM thread is very much present in the Hotspot section. I don't know why it needs to be duplicated here.

There are 2 totally different subjects in this thread, i.e. (1) DRMs and (2) sub-forums etc,

Since I don't like mixing these dissimilar subjects, I'll deal with them seperately.

Firstly the universal and IMHO very important subject (1) and later with the lessed local topic (2)

Over the past 20 years or so I have bought somewhere between 100 & 200 Quest /Adventures and have them all stored away. They were all bought legitimately of course - even if I had wanted to, AND I DID **NOT** there was no option since most were before the advent of downloadable games from Internet (and of course DRMs) and all are boxed.

I have never read a EULA of any type so I am not sure whether I have transgressed or not, but I have ***LOANED*** just a very few games to children & grandchildren who have promised to treat them with kid gloves and have returned them safely !

As far as I can understand, the whole object of DRMs is to stop or at least **GREATLY** reduce piracy. But does it ?? I have severe doubts.

I don't think that there are any proper stats of games pirated - I have seen figures ranging between 65% and 92%. I understand that in some countries the figure is very close to a 100%.

 But does ANYBODY *REALLY* think that DRM's have the **TINIEST** influence on file sharing piracy?  It's just as easy for a pirate to download a DRM "PROTECTED" (HEHEHE) game as an unprotected one.

And furthermore it gives a lot of people an excuse & justification for piracy that they wouldn't have otherwise  - only doing it on *PRINCIPLE* sort of thing.

I am not a lawyer but I have a feeling that some top-rate lawyer (e.g Dershowitz) could prove that although the EULAs are probably legitimate, the whole mechanism violates some form of moral or ethical behaviour and should be banned ?!?!

All in all - I think that DRMs should be stopped !!!

There are about 24 sub-fourums,

Seems I am different from some others.

I access JA at least once a day and generally more.

IMHO, the :"From the Forums" section is a VERY WELCOME BOON and addition.

For me, and I'm honestly suprised if not for ALL other mambers, it is a GREAT time & energy saver,

I need to go to one sub-forum ONLY instead of 24 in order to see at a single glance if there has been ANY new post since I last went there.

This "(LATEST) from the forums" sub-forum does not **HAVE** of necessity  to be on the Home Page - that is entirely secondary. For me, it is an added convenience, but it could well be situated in any other easily accessible position. 

I don't go browsing other webzines, but I believe that a similar 'latest from forums' exists on some of them.

This added facility, beneficial IMO, was not present in the earlier JA.

N.B. For the old timers here, its absence contributed to an unpleasant & totally unnecessary confrontation quite a long time ago - but that's (unhappy) history.

I certainly do NOT think that the controversial subject of DRMs should be hidden away in the bowels of JA as though there is something obscene about it,

On the contrary - if any 'outsider' happens to read it and has strong views pro or con, it would only be advantageous to JA if he joins the forums and participates !!

We are not hiding or deleting anything related to DRM. It’s an interesting subject matter & there are many differing opinions. 

The From the Forums section on the homepage is not manipulated by anyone or anything except the code that was written which decides what will show up there & it it supposed to change depending on your login status. 

On the topic of DRM, I think that I'll not respond in this thread - for myself, I'd prefer to stick to the thread in the Hot Spot, since that seems to me to be the more fitting place for it (but please see my second response to a quote below), and the conversation history is found there.

Originally Posted By Len Green (25 JUN 2012 4:14am)

I access JA at least once a day and generally more.

IMHO, the :"From the Forums" section is a VERY WELCOME BOON and addition.

For me, and I'm honestly suprised if not for ALL other mambers, it is a GREAT time & energy saver,

I need to go to one sub-forum ONLY instead of 24 in order to see at a single glance if there has been ANY new post since I last went there.

Fair enough - I suppose that I have two main reasons for not using the "From the Forums" section:

First, simple habit: skimming over the main index is the way that I'm used to exploring fora.

Second, from a quick count, it seems that there are eight entries in the "From the Forums" section, meaning that if there are nine new posts I might miss one by relying on it.  By checking the main index for "last post" times, then similarly going over the "last post" times in the relevant sub-fora I'm less likely to miss threads.

I certainly do NOT think that the controversial subject of DRMs should be hidden away in the bowels of JA as though there is something obscene about it,

I don't think that it's "hidden away" in the Hot Spot, nor that there is any suggestion of obscenity - as I see it, the Hot Spot is the fourth sub-forum from the top when viewing the main forum index, placed higher even than Hints and Tips.  That the DRM thread seems to be missing from the front page for both of us seems to be a separate issue (see my response to Digitize, below).

Originally Posted By digitize (25 JUN 2012 5:50am)

We are not hiding or deleting anything related to DRM. It’s an interesting subject matter & there are many differing opinions. 

 

The From the Forums section on the homepage is not manipulated by anyone or anything except the code that was written which decides what will show up there & it it supposed to change depending on your login status. 

For my part, I do apologise if I implied that anything was being censored; what you state in the second half of your last sentence was, I believe, my impression.

That said, since the results seem a little counter-intuitive, would you be willing to share with us the logic used in said code?  It doesn't seem to be hiding threads in which we've seen the last post, since I seem to recall seeing a post of my own as a most recent post there, for example.

My thanks for posting in this thread - having official input is likely to be rather more productive than the rest of us speculating. ^_^

THAUMATURGE :-

Of course everybody is **COMPLETELY ** entitled to use the system that they are used to &/or like best.

You prefer scanning the sub-forums (or at least the "major" ons - and good luck to you !

I myself greattly prefer quick perusal of the "From the Topics: Forum"

No argument !!!

I may have inadvertently given a wrong impression - and maybe an INCORRECT negative one !

Quote from DIGITIZE -------------------------- We are not hiding or deleting anything related to DRM. It’s an interesting subject matter & there are many differing opinions. 

The Forums section on the homepage is not manipulated by anyone or anything except the code that was written which decides what will show up there & it is supposed to change depending on your login status

I WAS *NOT* TRYING TO IMPLY ***ASNYTHING DIFFERENT*** FROM THIS !!!

 The software governing the "From the Forums" certainly plays strange tricks - and not for the first time.
In the present case - the thread" inserted in the :Hot Topic" sub-forum **DID  NOT** appear at all AFAIK on the "FtF Home-Page".  Then for a short time (I think) it **DID appear there - which is when I just happened to 'catch' it. And finally it vanished from there again -AFAIK , permanently !!!!
I  CERTAINLY DID *NOT*  MEAN  TO  IMPLY  THAT  THIS  WAS  THE WORK OF  *ANY* HUMAN, either intentionally or accidentally !!
Sorry if this gave a wrong impression !!

If you don't normally access the "Hot Spot" sub-forum (like me !) there are some more **REALLY  EXCELLENT** new posts on the "DRM" thread by Thaumaturge, Tincup2 & Fnord.

 

I have extracted below part of a post entered by Fnord - I hope you are not offended by my plagiarism. 

It is a particularly valid and essential point which I previously overlooked !

IMHO Tincup2's post alone and by itself renders the whole concept of DRMs immoral, if not actually illegal &/or unconstitutional !!!

 

Very many thanks.

 

Originally Posted By tincup2 (21 JUN 2012 6:52pm) Tincup2, and Fnord.  There is a link to this thread above and IMO they are **WELL** worth reading,

[size= x-small]I have taken the liberty of extracting part of one of these posts written by Tincup2.

 

It is *ANOTHER* VERY POWERFUL reason for abolishing the whole machinery of DRMs - and one which I had ocverlooked!

Thanks and I hope you are not offended by my plagiarism !!

 

 

 

                     --------------------------------------------

 

 And I don't like the idea that a game will become unplayable when the company goes out of business and online validation no longer works. I see these maneovers as ways to limit the use and life of a game - maybe an advantage to the producer in the same way "planned obsolecence" is to manufactured goods.

That is a major concern, and it is going to be a huge issue for those who want to preserve the history of video games. When Valve finally goes under, at some point in a distant future (considering how much money they are sitting on right now, it is at least not an immediate concern), many games will just disappear, games that might be of great historical importance. We are about to see our first true mass invalidation of games with the switch to the next console generation, when Nintendo, Sony & Microsoft will remove all the support for their old consoles, and thus make it impossible to access the games that you have bought as downloads for them. In a way, the piracy scene is the only thing that will keep many of these games playable...

Due to this, I make a point out of buying boxed copies of games that I suspect that I'll want to keep on playing for years to come, even if they are a bit more expensive (this is not true for steam activated games, of course).

Apparently no member is a much of a supporter of DRMs.

On the other hand nobody is opposed to the system.

So I suppose there;s not much point in trying to flog a dead horae!

**PITY** - IMO !!!

For myself, as I mentioned above, I believe, I'm restricting my responses on the topic of DRM to the thread in the Hot Spot - I prefer to keep the discussion in one place.  Additionally, I've been somewhat tired of late, I fear, and so haven't always felt up to posting on so heavy a subject.