There are many things I miss about RPG's as the genre has atrophied over the years, but one of the things I miss the most are detailed options in creating the player character, or where possible an entire party. For me, mulling over the advantages and disadvantages of a list of races, classes, and skills adds an extra dimension of enjoyment to a RPG. So I'd be interested to hear from you all about the best games you've played in that regard. Just to rule out some games I've already tried, I've played the first two Fallout games (which were superb in that regard) and all the Bioware RPG's (which varied from OK to very good in that area) except for the Dragon Age games.

Are you looking for rpgs where you actually make your party members, or games that simply have good stonrg well thought out party members to find and add to your party throughout the game?

Dragon age (Which you mention you didn't play) imo is the most recent example of a good  strong party-based rpg out there.

Some of the characters were great, many well thought out and deep character that you get to know over hte coures of the game as you unravel their stories and can even influence how they become. Alistar is one of my rfavorite rpg characters in a long time along with Morrigan (whom seems quite mean at first, until you get to know her plight and her history).

Also Drakansang and it's sequel, Drakansang: River of Time are decent newer rpgs with party members.

For classics there's:

Arcanum

Wizardy series

Betrayal at Krondor/antara

Originally Posted By Stiler (18 FEB 2012 8:34pm)

Are you looking for rpgs where you actually make your party members, or games that simply have good stonrg well thought out party members to find and add to your party throughout the game?

 

For the purposes of this thread I'm interested in RPG's where you make your character(s) at the start. Though picking up other party members along the way is acceptable if the game at least lets you create your main character at the beginning(and of course, has a decent array of options in doing so.)

Oblvion and Morrowind should be on the list for sure. I will think over others.

For me the best character creation was in the SSI Gold Box games. Buck Rogers, Krynn series, Pool of Radiance. A more recent one is Temple of Elemental Evil, with a very comprehensive party creation.

Realms of Arkania 1-3 has a very detailed character creation and leveling system. If my memory serves, a caster has 11 pages of options to pick & chose from. Drakensang is based on a later edition of the same rule system and is not quite as complex, but it is a bit better balanced and user friendly.

Temple of Elemental Evil is one of the two good D&D 3.X games (the other being Icewind dale 2). Its story is not great, but it uses the D&D system to great effects, and has a very good tactical system.

Temple of Elemental Evil is an excellent suggestion where relatively modern games are concerned. Available on GoG. Famously buggy, you should probably play it with the unofficial "Circle of 8" mod/patch for a smooth experience.

If you can tolerate the graphics, Knights of the Chalice has classic DnD 4-character party creation and great turn-based combat.

If you are willing to give rather older games a chance, get the Realms of Arkania trilogy from GoG (I think they sell the first two games in a bundle and the third one separately) and be prepared for character creation heaven. Or hell, since most people are unfamiliar with the PnP system it is based on (the same one as the recent Drakensang games, but much more faithful to the core rules) and will need time to understand it.

The Might and Magic series, though anything earlier than World of Xeen (Might and Magic 4 and Might and Magic 5 combined) will likely feel too old, and modern graphics and user interface conveniences are only available from Might and Magic 6 (one of the best games of all time IMHO) and on. Also available on GoG.

The Wizardry series, with 8 being the only one the feels "modern". Getting hold of a legitimate copy may prove difficult/costly in the second-hand market.

Originally Posted By Andromus (18 FEB 2012 9:39pm)

Originally Posted By Stiler (18 FEB 2012 8:34pm)

Are you looking for rpgs where you actually make your party members, or games that simply have good stonrg well thought out party members to find and add to your party throughout the game?

 

 

 

For the purposes of this thread I'm interested in RPG's where you make your character(s) at the start. Though picking up other party members along the way is acceptable if the game at least lets you create your main character at the beginning(and of course, has a decent array of options in doing so.)

Kingdoms of Amalur does making your character in terms of abilities/type VERY well, more so then most rpgs. (Visually, it is about average, 4 races to choose from, hair/face/skin/hair choices, etc) but the way you can actually make your character abilitiy wise is extremely good.

There's no set "classes" or anything, as you level up you get 3 points to place into 3 skill trees, finesse, might, sorcery. You can place them in any tree, go all out into one tree, mix and match to your hearts content. Be a armor weilding mage that uses a great sword. A light rogue with a big of magic, etc. You can basically meld your character how you want without being restricted to any kind of "Class" system like youo find in most rpgs out there.

As you skill up in the trees you unlock new moves and abilities, some which change depending on what tree's you are in. For example, if you skill up in both finesse and sorcery, the "dodge roll" move you have turns into a blink teleport, and as you skill up more, it turns into a damage ability and can even be made to do different damage types, such as poision, frost, fire, etc.

Then on top of this, you get "destiny cards" which are unlocked as you lv up, which basically give you bonuses depending on how you build your character, ther eare destiny cards for all combinations of each tree that basically make ANY type of character you pick get bonuses, so you don't feel "nerfed/weak" if you mix and match things, it enchances the choices youo made and make it even better.

For example, when you place your skils in each tree evenlly you unlock a "universalist" card, which does:

• +20% Melee Attack Damage
• +20% Ranged Attack Damage
• +20% Magic Attack Damage
• Equip Requirements reduced by half.
• +3 to All Skills
• +12% Total Damage Resistance
• +10% Chance to Critical Hit
• Mastery of Arms: Unlocks all Weapon Mastery Abilities.

I wish more rpgs were as open with character choices as it, it's probably the best newest rpg that allows you to build your character how you want in that regard.

Appreciate all the suggestions, folks! The Realms of Arkania games in particular sound like a stat lovers dream. And I didn't realize they had a connection with the Drakensang games. Interesting.

Knights of the Chalice is the only game here I've never heard anything about, but a glance over the screenshots make it look promising.

I had pretty much overlooked Temple of Elemental Evil due to its mixed reviews and reputation for bugs, but if it offers character creation and development along the lines of what I'm currently seeing in Icewind Dale 2 (along with the aforementioned fan mod that irons out the wrinkles), I'd give it a try based on that alone.

I wish the Kingdoms of Amalur demo had given a little more taste of what you describe there, Stiler. Sounds like fun.

Oh, I understand Lionheart and Arcanum use variations of the excellent SPECIAL system. Any opinions about how well it's implented in either game?

Temple of elemental evil is a typical Troika games, many great ideas, a bit sloppy at points and very buggy, but like all troika games, the fans have done wonders to it. And it actually uses the rule system a bit better than Icewind Dale 2, and the 3.5 ruleset is better balanced than 3.0 in general. Don't give up if your party gets wiped early on, it is a very unforgiving game.

Arcanum does not use the SPECIAL system, instead it has its very own rule system. In it skills & stats are handled similarly when it comes to leveling up, so you will continuously raise your stats, unlike with SPECIAL where the stats are relatively static. Also the game does not use a % system for skills, instead they are graded on a scale between 0-5, and on 1, 3 & 5 you can get an additional bonus that is related to your skill by seeking out certain trainers. You also have tech & magic, which is bought using the same points as you use for skills & stats. The system is poorly balanced though, with some skills being next to useless, and others being very good, though it is also a rather easy game (apart from the mines, you will know what I'm talking about when you get there). Arcanum is a game that you play for its setting, and not its gameplay.

Lionheart was an incredibly rushed game. It starts quite good, but it soon devolves into a very repetitive dungeon crawler

Have you had a look at Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim. You create a character pretty much from scratch and in Oblivion and Skyrim there are a facial creators as well.

Have you tried Obsidian's games? e.g. Neverwinter Nights 2, Storm of Zehir, Mask of the Betrayer?  Have you played NWN in its entirety and buy that I mean, both expansion backs, the premium module. Obsidian has also made a game called Fallout: New Vegas where the system is much like Fallout 3 from Bethesda.

Have you played The Witcher from CD Project, if not, you should, it is a really good game. And although, your character is pretty fixed, you can make him the way you want during the game. Did you play Planescape: Torment?  Lionheart uses the SPECIAL system, but I don't think they've made very good use of it. It also uses the infinity engine created by Bioware but you can only pause the game to drink potions. And I could never get past the first part in the game.

And of course, there are the Diablo 1 and 2 games as well as the Dungeon Siege games. I can't remember if you create a character in the Dungeon Siege games, though?

Originally Posted By Karsten (20 FEB 2012 3:38pm)

Have you had a look at Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim. You create a character pretty much from scratch and in Oblivion and Skyrim there are a facial creators as well.

I've played through Morrowind, currently have Oblivion on the to be played pile. I really enjoyed the range of characters you could choose from in Morrowind, as well as having the option to make a custom character. I didn't quite have the nerve to make a custom character on my first playthrough, but I'll probably give that a shot next time around.

Have you tried Obsidian's games? e.g. Neverwinter Nights 2, Storm of Zehir, Mask of the Betrayer?  Have you played NWN in its entirety and buy that I mean, both expansion backs, the premium module. Obsidian has also made a game called Fallout: New Vegas where the system is much like Fallout 3 from Bethesda.

Yup, I've been through all the Neverwinter Night games and their expansions. Didn't care much for them in terms of gameplay, but the options in character creation and development were probably the best things about them. I have yet to play Fallout 3 or New Vegas, I'll be interested to see how the SPECIAL system is handled in an action setting.

Have you played The Witcher from CD Project, if not, you should, it is a really good game. And although, your character is pretty fixed, you can make him the way you want during the game. Did you play Planescape: Torment?  Lionheart uses the SPECIAL system, but I don't think they've made very good use of it. It also uses the infinity engine created by Bioware but you can only pause the game to drink potions. And I could never get past the first part in the game.

 

And of course, there are the Diablo 1 and 2 games as well as the Dungeon Siege games. I can't remember if you create a character in the Dungeon Siege games, though?

I've never played The Witcher, but I have played Planescape, which was a great game. I sampled some of Diablo 1 awhile back, but basically burnt myself out on it and never got around to trying it again. Never tried the Dungeon Siege games, though I plan to at some point.