I see they haven't even included AG's here - they called action-adventures adventures... http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2008/Teens-Video-Games-and-Civics/05-12-Basic-Gaming-Hardware-and-Games-Played/08-Teens-play-many-types-and-genres.aspx

Some random thoughts between myself an JKing about this on Goodreads:

J said: "Traveller, I often do a double-take when I see "adventure" games being referred to as violent or having combat, but I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding as to the definition of "adventure" game amongst those examining video games as opposed to computer games. These days "adventure games" does not refer to point-and-click graphic adventure games wildly popular and industry-defining in the computer game market of thelate 1980s and early 1990s, but rather refers to action adventure games, so industry-defining for video games of the late 1990s and early 2000s.

It's sad, but unavoidable."

Yours truly replied (quoted in part):"@ J: Yes, I noticed they have Tombraider and Zelda there as AG's, and that they totally disregard adventure games as a genre. This might be due to the huge decline that adventure games have seen in the past 10 years or so, but they are still being developed, and they still exist as a genre. So this is merely sloppy reporting, in calling action-adventures adventures.
{..} ..or scorn for a dying genre.

Then I wondered:

 Who knows, maybe AG's will have a bit of a revival now that we are entering the zone of touch screen technology. I think part of the problem has been that it's very difficult to do point-and-click on (non-touch screen) consoles.

Dare we hope that touchscreens might come to the AG's rescue?

What do adventure games need rescuing from? Sloppy journalism? Or the scorn of a clueless site as irrelevant as any other in the great internet ocean?
 

Originally Posted By Mr Innocent. (19 FEB 2012 6:02am)

What do adventure games need rescuing from? Sloppy journalism? Or the scorn of a clueless site as irrelevant as any other in the great internet ocean?
 

From oblivion, which is where the genre seems to be at the moment.

Care to elaborate? I know about them, and I'm not in oblivion. We are talking about it in a forum dedicated to them, also not in oblivion.

The Blackwell Deception, NCIS, The Ballads of Reemus, Corrosion: Cold Winter Waiting, Space Madness, Law and Order Legacies, Dead Mountaineer's Hotel, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Stroke of Fate,  Miskatonic Episode One have been published in the last 3 to 4 months. Many argue that the AAA title L.A. Noir is a traditional adventure game in its essense.

J.U.L.I.A. and Captain Morgane will be released next month. How many RPGs, strategy games or even shooters have been released in the same time?

But most important of all, with Double Fine's kickstarter getting 2.000.000$ (that's two million United States of America dollars) in a week from a crowd hungry for a traditional adventure game, I think it's safe to call people who ignore the genre oblivious.

Most of them 'foreign' or indie games, not that there's anything wrong with that, but also bad translation and voice-acting seem to be the lot of Anglophone games developed in other languages.  Dead Mountaineer's Hotel is the one I was talking about - oh I didn't post that reply I see.  But anyway, it has such terrible voice-acting in the English version, that it would be better to play the game in German.  Sadly my German isn't all that hot.

Also, The Blackwell games, NCIS and Law and Order are pretty niche.

And no, LA Noire isn't marketed as an AG. So that's not going to help the "name" of AG's as a genre.  I keep wanting to get the game, but I've heard it has some or other horrible draconian DRM scheme. 

Anyway, how many, major "AAA" adventure titles have been released in the past... let's say 4 years?  For me Sherlock used to fall in that category, but even Frogwares have now joined the casual market and they're severly rationing us on AG's proper.

And to me, titles like alter Ego and Black Mirror 2 (I didn't even get to BM3), sucked.  They seem to have been written by teenage boys for teenage boys.

Originally Posted By Traveller (19 FEB 2012 1:30pm)

Most of them 'foreign' or indie games, not that there's anything wrong with that, but also bad translation and voice-acting seem to be the lot of Anglophone games developed in other languages.  Dead Mountaineer's Hotel is the one I was talking about - oh I didn't post that reply I see.  But anyway, it has such terrible voice-acting in the English version, that it would be better to play the game in German.  Sadly my German isn't all that hot.

I could possibly tolerate the state of adventure gaming today but for this. I am absolutely sick of seeing games ruined by shoddy translation work. And I don't see any excuse for it. One native English speaker with an average vocabulary could clean up most of the awkward phrasing one sees in English translations.

Anyway, how many, major "AAA" adventure titles have been released in the past... let's say 4 years?  For me Sherlock used to fall in that category, but even Frogwares have now joined the casual market and they're severly rationing us on AG's proper.

 

This is the other major peeve of mine regarding the state of adventure gaming. I understand the golden age is long over, and adventure games are a niche genre. Still, I wish just one genuine AAA adventure title would come along every once in awhile. I really can't name one from the last several years.

I agree that these days adventure games seems to be games like Oblivion, Uncharted, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, Resistance: Fall of Man, Zelda Gamesand such games. It seems only to be us here at justadventure, gameboomers and adventuregamers that seem to, no, not know what an adventure game is, but hold on to the definition coined way back in the 1980's and the 1990's. But the thing is back then, you did go on an adventure. Along the way you solved some puzzles and won the day - ehm game. In Mst you went on an adventure trying to find out what had happened to three or four brothers, in the King's Quest series, Rosella or her her fioncee went on an adventure and in the cours of this solved puzzles. In Legend of Kyrandia: Hand of fate you did the same as did you in Zork: Nemesis. In Zork: Nemesis there seemed to be goal, a puzzle or something like that you had to solve. And in order to to this you would go on an adventure. In Shivers 2, you'd go out on an adventure looking for your friends - solving puzzles along the way. Today, it seems the adventure games all are (or mostly are) detective games.

However, I have seen The Book of Unwritten Tales getting very good reviews in the mainstream press, even in a major Danish newspaper. They had a very nice printed review and gave it 5/6 stars. And doesn't the -ehm- main character also go out an adventure, isn't he trying to find somone who can help him?

As for L.A. Noire, I did a little searching and here's what one user said:

  I bought the game tonight and I have to admit there is no problems with the DRM,I downloaded and then got into the game,it did offer me to join some club which I refused and then I was playing the game.

source: http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2421605&page=2

 

 

Note that this is for the Steam download. But it still uses a drm called Gameshield.

 

Another user on the Steam forum notes this:

 

There is no install/activation limit with gameshield. Its mostly used by f2p MMOs to protect their games from hacking. It uninstalls with the game with the standard uninstaller. While I'd prefer to have no DRM at all, gameshield isn't that obtrusive. Its similar to xTrap and GameGuard in nature.

source: http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2421605&page=3

 

And it seems you can refuse to join the Rockstar Game Social Club......

Last edited by Karsten : 19 FEB 2012 5:03pm

Originally Posted By Karsten (19 FEB 2012 4:51pm)

I agree that these days adventure games seems to be games like Oblivion, Uncharted, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, Resistance: Fall of Man, Zelda Gamesand such games. It seems only to be us here at justadventure, gameboomers and adventuregamers that seem to, no, not know what an adventure game is, but hold on to the definition coined way back in the 1980's and the 1990's. But the thing is back then, you did go on an adventure. Along the way you solved some puzzles and won the day - ehm game. In Mst you went on an adventure trying to find out what had happened to three or four brothers, in the King's Quest series, Rosella or her her fioncee went on an adventure and in the cours of this solved puzzles. In Legend of Kyrandia: Hand of fate you did the same as did you in Zork: Nemesis. In Zork: Nemesis there seemed to be goal, a puzzle or something like that you had to solve. And in order to to this you would go on an adventure. In Shivers 2, you'd go out on an adventure looking for your friends - solving puzzles along the way. Today, it seems the adventure games all are (or mostly are) detective games.

However, I have seen The Book of Unwritten Tales getting very good reviews in the mainstream press, even in a major Danish newspaper. They had a very nice printed review and gave it 5/6 stars. And doesn't the -ehm- main character also go out an adventure, isn't he trying to find somone who can help him?

 

At first, Book of Unwritten Tales does have the appearance of the older 'real' adventures. But it only takes a few hours playing it before its shallowness emerges. Like you said, there's a difference between constructing a game as an adventure in which the player participates, or conceiving it as a story+puzzles. You can feel it when a game is made the second way, how you come up against obstructions for their own sake. I think it's incredibly hard, given the tradition of adventure games, for a new development by people which admire that tradition, to follow it without consciously inserting the elements they enjoyed, turning natural and spontaneous ideas - formed by simply wanting to create an adventure - into old and stale ideas, formed by wanting to emulate the good ol' days.

@ Karsten:  Thanks for the info re LA Noire.  Bar the Steam which I don't like, it doesn't look to bad; but  I don't like games for which you have to be online all the time, and that's what I thought the game's DRM required, but I wasn't sure. I'll see if I can get a chance to this week to check it out in more detail.

So the adventure game genre is in "oblivion", because you can find something wrong for every one of the dozens of releases in the past 3 or 4 years?

And when was there a time that 9 out of 10 games in any genre were flawless?

The Blackwell games are nicely designed, but "niche". The Next BIG Thing has AAA production values, but it is "short and easy". The Daedalic games (The Whispered World, A New Beginning) have amazing art, but they are not "constructed as adventures". Black Mirror 2 & 3 have excellent production values, more than decent length, and a gripping story, but they are "for teenage boys".

PEBKAC, obviously.

We can only hope touch screens will come to rescue, but right now - I find them too clumsy. Stubby finger over a small screen is incredibly unprecise compared to pixel-precise mouse pointer on a large screen. As I've said in numerous other threads, I am completely in love with Nintendo DS, it is perfect for point&click games and allows for more immersive gameplay than PC. Sadly, it is not nearly as widespread as touch phones and tablet devices, not to mention the screens are very, very small. You cannot pick pixel-wide nails from your phone screen!

And as industry grows larger, publishers are out of quick buck. A game that is slow and requires - shock, gasp - thinking will not make them quick $ as a new CoD game will. There are definitely people who want to make adventures, but very few who want to fund such endeavours. And even if they do, they focus on more casual "hidden object" games.

I haven't been thrilled with a new-ish game for a long while. It is true that I love Gray Matter a bit too much, but I acknowledge its flaws. It is nowhere near the old classics because of budget constraints. Black Mirror 2 was a hit and miss, Black Mirror 3... yeah, let's not even mention it. Ever again.

As for The Book of Unwritten Tales, isn't the main character voiced by Doug Cockle, who voices Geralt of Rivia? Someone on the Witcher forums linked to a video and... uhh... let's just say it was evident he wasn't paid enough to do another mind-blowing performance. But I might check the game out, since you guys say it's a good one

Originally Posted By Dona (20 FEB 2012 7:11am)

We can only hope touch screens will come to rescue, but right now - I find them too clumsy. Stubby finger over a small screen is incredibly unprecise compared to pixel-precise mouse pointer on a large screen. As I've said in numerous other threads, I am completely in love with Nintendo DS, it is perfect for point&click games and allows for more immersive gameplay than PC. Sadly, it is not nearly as widespread as touch phones and tablet devices, not to mention the screens are very, very small. You cannot pick pixel-wide nails from your phone screen!

 

And as industry grows larger, publishers are out of quick buck. A game that is slow and requires - shock, gasp - thinking will not make them quick $ as a new CoD game will. There are definitely people who want to make adventures, but very few who want to fund such endeavours. And even if they do, they focus on more casual "hidden object" games.

If we are going to see adventure games on smartphones & pads, we might have to take another look on how puzzles are designed. Instead of focusing on picking up & combining objects, games would be more about manipulating larger objects on the spot, and build more intricate self contained puzzles. More Myst than Monkey Island in its puzzle design. (Though the puzzles does, of course not, have to be as complex as those in the Myst games).

And I don't really agree with you in regards to companies not being willing to make games for the thinking audience. While adventure games have sadly become a niche market, where indie devs and German companies with a shoe string budget makes up a large portion of the market, the complex strategy market is currently thriving (look at the amount of money that Paradox is able to spend on their advertisement campaign for Crusader kings 2, a very complex strategy game). Companies will always try to find the most lucrative markets, but at some point they get over-saturated, and this is where it becomes financially sound to develop more niche titles instead of trying to cram yet another cover based 3rd person shooter into a market where many cover based 3rd person shooters gets ignored because there are too many being made, and it is because Paradox have focused on a less saturated market that they have been able to grow so much. Now we just have to hope that a company with the financial means and expertise will step in and fill the void that is the big(er) budget adventure game market in a near future. And if double fine's project pays off, then that does not sound unlikely. 

You're right about the design. There are many ways to design a puzzle, I guess, and manipuating objects is always fun. NDS lets you do both, since it comes with a very precise stylys, but it's a specific device. Perhaps it's just my aversion towards touchscreen phones speaking, I absolutely loathe the (necessary) bulky interface and lack of precision (screens themselves are precise, but fingers are not).

That's good to hear! I haven't paid attention to Crusader Kings 2 because I'm not interested in strategy games. What happened to the p&c adventure genre, then? I had high hopes for White Birds Productions, but we all know how that ended. Is there any publisher out there willing to fund quality adventures? Because all I see are HOGs and indie games (nothing against indie games, but their lack of funds forces them to create lower quality games).

And yes, keeping my fingers crossed for Double Fine.

Originally Posted By Dona (20 FEB 2012 7:11am)

We can only hope touch screens will come to rescue, but right now - I find them too clumsy. Stubby finger over a small screen is incredibly unprecise compared to pixel-precise mouse pointer on a large screen. As I've said in numerous other threads, I am completely in love with Nintendo DS, it is perfect for point&click games and allows for more immersive gameplay than PC. Sadly, it is not nearly as widespread as touch phones and tablet devices, not to mention the screens are very, very small. You cannot pick pixel-wide nails from your phone screen!

 

Well, I played a demo or 2 of some action RPG's on my tablet, using a finger, and for that kind of game it seems fine.  Admittedly, a finger would certainly be a problem when it comes to pixel-hunting, so a stylus would be much better for AG's, but stylii aren't such a big leap from fingers. It would be a small investment for a gamer to make.

To be quite honest though, I suppose AG type PAC controls could be quite easily simulated with a console controller, if you really thought about it. I just don't see why more AG's couldn't be ported to consoles.

As to earlier comments about the so-called flood of AG's we are seeing, I can't help wondering how I'm supposed to last 6 months on Book of Unwritten Tales, which is the only AG released since Gray Matter that really interests me.

I was interested in Dark Star, but I've been told it's a mess.

..and if you're a console gamer with a PS3 or XBOX 360, (your biggest slice of the current gaming market) what are your current choices re AG's?

Welp, I'm biased because fingerprints on screen make me cringe

They could always go with 3D for consoles, something like what Syberia and Still Life did? Gray Matter, too, although I'm not sure how it plays on consoles. Sure, having fixed hotspots takes away from the 'looking for clues' aspect of adventures, but that can be made up with good logical puzzles and story. At least for me, because that's what I look for in these games, I certainly wouldn't miss hitting my head on the desk for 5 hours because I missed a tiny hotspot in the other village.

Nintendo Wii also looks interesting as far as adventures go, but its hardware is kind of crappy and it's seen as recreational device, rather than a serious gaming console. I'm sure there is SOME sort of a mix of device/gameplay/ingedient x that could spring adventures back to life, someone just needs to figure out what it is and make it reality

Originally Posted By Traveller (20 FEB 2012 8:11am)

..and if you're a console gamer with a PS3 or XBOX 360, (your biggest slice of the current gaming market) what are your current choices re AG's?

 

Heavy Rain, L.A. Noire, Gray Matter & some CSI games are the only ones that comes to mind. Wii owners have Zack & Wiki.

Originally Posted By Dona (20 FEB 2012 8:27am)

 

They could always go with 3D for consoles, something like what Syberia and Still Life did? Gray Matter, too, although I'm not sure how it plays on consoles. Sure, having fixed hotspots takes away from the 'looking for clues' aspect of adventures, but that can be made up with good logical puzzles and story. At least for me, because that's what I look for in these games, I certainly wouldn't miss hitting my head on the desk for 5 hours because I missed a tiny hotspot in the other village.

 

Nintendo Wii also looks interesting as far as adventures go, but its hardware is kind of crappy and it's seen as recreational device, rather than a serious gaming console. I'm sure there is SOME sort of a mix of device/gameplay/ingedient x that could spring adventures back to life, someone just needs to figure out what it is and make it reality

For consoles they could just use the control scheme used for games like Grim Fandango & Escape from Monkey Island. Both games had very gamepad friendly controls, and it would not alienate too many of those who prefer the classic style of point & click adventure games. And I really would not mind if we got rid of pixel hunting altogether, searching for objects is usually not challenging, just tedious. 

While the Wii might lack in hardware strength (and it will soon be phased out in favour of WiiU), it is not a bad system for games. There are plenty of more "hard core" games on it, but it would seem like only Wii owners are actually aware of those that exists. 

Originally Posted By Mr Innocent. (20 FEB 2012 6:52am)
PEBKAC, obviously.

(Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair)

That cleared up, I favour a mouse. I like having a nice, pointy cursor going right where I want it to without my finger being in the way. Rubbing glass to input has never felt natural to me. I play piano - give me a button to make something happen in a detailed manner.

Honestly, i'm no longer a big fan of the classic adventure genre, which is a rather bold statement on an AG forum don't you think 

Over the years i've evolved together with the game industry, i did grow up with EGA AG games like King's Quest I and loved them, but there's no way i would even try such a game today.

I do prefer the action/adventure genre, worlds like Skyrim can't compete with Daventry for example.

They're so much more detailed, filled with actual people, those worlds feel much more real.

It just doesn't make sense that a certain character remains in the exact same spot until you've figured out how to solve the next puzzle.

Maybe the genre needs to re-invent itself and make room for a more realistic representation of it's game world. Make the characters actually do something besides being on right there on the exact moment and place because the storyline demands it.

I’m like the rest of you, I mis having new adventure games also. But, I often wonder what types of adventures games I miss. Do I want adventure games like Syberia where you have a 2D static background? Or do I want 3D type adventure games like Dream Fall? Do I want lots of text to read through like in The Longest Journey? Do I want first person adventure games like Myst or third person adventure games like Syberia?

I am assuming that none of us want Action Adventure Games like Tomb Raider, but rather we want pure adventure games with puzzles and no action.

We all agree that we want adventure games, but what type of adventure games do we want? Do we want to go all the way back to 2D still frame, or perhaps 2D node type with 360 degree views? Or are we going to move on to 3D type adventure games and leave the 2D behind us?

Independent game makers like Senscape (they made scratches) for example need to know what it is that you want and will buy.

So when you say you want adventure games, I ask, what kind? You can't have it both ways. You can have adventure games, but you will have to giveup some styles of adventure game making.

I disagree with the poster who stated that we, as a group of advenure game players, need to 'move on' and accept new styles of adventure game making. Such as for example having action in our adventure games, or having multiple characters, or always having 3D. We are the players and we don't have to accept popular trends of game making. We can have adventure games made 'our way' , but we need as a group to, more or less agree, what this 'way' will be so the creators of adventure games well know how to make them.

Tim Schafer, Ron Gilbert and the rest of the folks at Double Fine Productions will be working on a point and click adventure game, but what style of game will it be? Senscape is releaseing their new game Asylum soon. It has a node style of game play. Will it sell in a game world that only markets 3D type games?

What type of adventure games do we want?

I'm very flexible in regards to style of game. Node based (with 360 degrees camera rotation like Myst 3-4 or Scratches), static camera with pre-rendered/drawn backgrounds (Syberia, Monkey Island), free movement in a 1st or 3rd person perspective (Myst 5, Dreamfall), they all work, as long as the developers make the game with that in mind. What I don't want to see is pixel hunting and puzzles that uses outlandish logic (day of the tentacle).

I'd prefer a Myst-like game in terms of gameplay, but I'm an ecumenical enough sort of gamer that I'll happily play any adventure with solid production values be it Myst-like or more conventional inventory based, 2D or 3D, etc.

Originally Posted By markornikov (20 FEB 2012 3:47pm)

I do prefer the action/adventure genre, worlds like Skyrim can't compete with Daventry for example.

They're so much more detailed, filled with actual people, those worlds feel much more real.

It just doesn't make sense that a certain character remains in the exact same spot until you've figured out how to solve the next puzzle.

 

Wow, really? When I think back to compare the worlds of Skyrim, which I played fairly recently and, say, KQ6 which I last played about a year ago, I have to say the world of KQ6 is much more vivid and alive in my mind. My memory of it is filled with totally unique individuals and items, while Skyrim is an enormous but fairly dull world populated with identical carbon-copy people and objects. I get this with all open-world games, from Ultima to Gothic to Oblivion.

Walking around the towns and hearing someone say the exact same line I heard in the last town just destroys a game for me. It makes me feel like the game world was made by computers and not people. While the old King's Quest adventure style has its problems like you mentioned, the problem with games like Skyrim (blandness) is worse and one I don't think can be easily fixed, if a huge-budget game like Skyrim can't manage it.

Originally Posted By Andromus (20 FEB 2012 9:33pm)

I'd prefer a Myst-like game in terms of gameplay, but I'm an ecumenical enough sort of gamer that I'll happily play any adventure with solid production values be it Myst-like or more conventional inventory based, 2D or 3D, etc.

Since I enjoy variety, I'd also love to see another Myst-like game, with modern production values.  I'm happy with Sherlock, I'd love another game similar to the 2 Syberias, and I wouldn't mind a game similar to  Secret Files but just with a less irritating protagonist than Nina.  Games like Whispered World and Book of Unwritten Tales are also nice. 

It's true that some of the games I mentioned have been released in the past 4 or 5 years, but once every 6 to 8 months isn't often enough if all you play are AG's, since such a game usually takes about a weekend to finish.  What do you play for the other 10 months in the year?

I loved the first 3 editions of the CSI games, when 369 Interactive still made them, those stories were excellent.  Sadly the franchise went downhill when Telltale Games took over. 

I too, don't mind 2d at all, in fact I prefer it when it comes to AG's.

Oh, I almost forgot about Jonathan Boakes.  Lost Crown was nice too, but he's been quiet for soo long now.  And yes, that sexy guy who made Scratches, his games are also about 4 years or more apart...

There's been the new Monkey Tales too, but that was also a while ago.

I love Kori's avatar: an aerial view of the lagoon on Riven.  Superb....

As for hankering after more of the old style games.... I used to be like that.  But I can't be bothered finishing Riven, Syberia is driving me bonkers - it's so slow and I have a pile of heartily recommended older games that I just can't find the enthusiasm to start.  I have evolved it would seem.  After discovering the joys of playing online with other people I find I am LONELY in single player games.  

So I want more online ADVENTURE games.  Like the old style with puzzles but in 3D with people and a bit of activity.  But the money is all in the fighting games at the moment so I'm not holding my breath that us peaceful nerdfy types will be catered to anytime soon.  

Originally Posted By Traveller (20 FEB 2012 2:36am)

@ Karsten:  Thanks for the info re LA Noire.  Bar the Steam which I don't like, it doesn't look to bad; but  I don't like games for which you have to be online all the time, and that's what I thought the game's DRM required, but I wasn't sure. I'll see if I can get a chance to this week to check it out in more detail.

there will be a 75% sale on L.A. noir on thursday on http://www.greenmangaming.co.uk/ so that might be the ideal time to buy it, i most certainly will