nybody know how to get rid of these horrible " [size=small] "s 'cos I don't !!!

I think it maybe be coding you're bringing over from your word processor.  Just use your edit button to delete it.

Ok, hang on, I've not been following this thread and only just had the time to read through the entirety of it.

Len, I want to ask you a question, have you played a game that makes use of WASD and mouselook before? Since you've been playing mostly quest adventures, I have a feeling that you might not have, and might not therefore know what we are talking about.

In what gamers call a "3-D" game, and which tincup explained so very excellently in post #100

Originally Posted By tincup2 (27 FEB 2012 6:36pm)

3D refers to 3D wireframe type computer modelling. Each point of an object in a 3D model [a game level for instance or an object within a level] is described by a 3 number coordinate corresponding to the XYZ axes. 2D textures are then "mapped" onto the facets of 3D spaces and objects created in this manner to give them visual quality. But mapping doesn't make the model 2D or even 2.5D.

3D movement consists of forwards/backwards, up/down, left/right, the same axes we use to move around in our sad little world.

Zooming in or out is the dimunition or augmentation of a particular field of view from within the 3D model, not an axis per se. Narrow the "cone of vision" while keeping the area of the screen unchanged will have the effect of magnification, broadening it will do the opposite.

Dear Esther is 3D by the conventional computer modelling definition, as are most games billed as 3D these days.

Pre-render slideshow games like Riven are 2D from our "gamers" point of view, but 3D models were used to create the scenes from which the individual snapshots we see were taken. By not letting us wander around Riven in glorious 3D they were relieved of modelling and rendering *every* object and surface, something that was probably beyond the computational or budget limitations of the game industry at the time. Yet even today highly refined pre-render 2D slideshow games compete graphically with the best 3D games of today in view-to-view comparisons.

Edit: In fact they usually surpass 3D in pure rendering detail

 , we can interact as if the gameworld was a 3-d environment.  In some of these games we play (like RPG's and first person shooters)  you can in fact fly up and down, and over the landscape, and look around in all directions with your mouse; - up down and in a 360 degree rotation, plus you can move in all of these directions too, let's say you are flying a helicopter in the game for instance.

So, the 3-D is more a projected thing onto your avatar or player-character inside the game (you need to imagine the character in the game is "you" and "you" can (in the game) move in all directions  (even swim underwater).  As you know, one cannot do this in point-and click quest adventures which are pre-rendered.  If, in a game with pre-rendered graphics,  the screen gives you an illusion of being able to move "in" towards the back of the scene, this is what we call 2.5D.

These names that we gamers use for the way that a game is rendered, are purely gaming conventions, and we know that these terms are restricted to the gaming world, and do not extend to the 'real' world and to science.

It's an abstraction, if you will, just like the "3-D-ness" is simply an abstraction that you as the gamer project into the game world.

The control mechanics of these are typically, for PC, if you are using keyboard and mouse, that you move forward with your W key, backward with you S key, right with your D key (either you will sidle right or turn right, depending on the game) and left with your A key. In Morrowind, a fantasy RPG in which you can fly, flying upwards would be achieved with a combination of pressing on the  W key and pointing your mouse to the top of the screen.  Then, once up in the sky, you can stop 'walking" and look down again, by moving your mouse downwards to the bottom of the screen. 

This kind of thing takes getting used to if you are used to playing PAC games in mostly 2-D and 2.5 d environments.

As for Dear Esther being a quest adventure, I doubt that even the developers are calling it that, many people are saying it's not even a game, let alone a quest adventure. But anyway, everybody else seems to agree that it's more or less a new genre.  Some people are calling it a 'visual novel' and that sounds like a good description for it.

Btw, what I knew previously about "Dear Esther" was that it was available for free as a mod for Half-life 2.  Of course, you had to have Half-life 2 to be able to play the mod.

Now they've overhauled the graphics and probably a few other things, and are selling it as the standalone game that is being discussed in  this thread.

It looks interesting, I'll wait for it to go to an alternative portal like hopefully the indie humble bundle at some point in time.  (or I might dredge up the original DE which I downloaded way back when it was still a HL2 mod, to get an idea of what the fuss is about. (Not sure if that will work on Win 7, though)

I think I initialised it, (when I still had XP) but didn't really play much of it, since it was a lesser known thing and I always have too many games on my plate. 

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As a matter of possible interest, the following is from Dear Esther Interview: A Conversation with Robert Briscoe at http://electronicfarmyard.com/games-and-movies/gaming-news/dear-esther-interview-a-conversation-with-robert-briscoe/ . It addresses the "is-it-or-isn't-it-a-game" question...

Some gamers might debate whether Dear Esther is actually a ‘game.’ What would you say to those people and what is the purpose of this clearly experimental and divisive title?

This is something both Dan and I get a lot, “is it a game?” We never set out to do anything other than make a game, we’ve never had any intention to encourage this debate, there’s no doubt in our minds that DE is a game – it’s just different. It was/is a creative venture, but one which differs from the typical FP game. We have no interest in debating whether it is a game, that’s just something which sprang from the community and the debate about whether videogames can be considered art. With DE our sole purpose was to create something different, which was new and creative.

______________________________________________

As I've said elsewhere in this thread: Kudos to thechineseroom and Robert Briscoe for being so creative and for daring to try something different.

Very many thanks JA-Staff 3,

I am sure that you are right and thanks for the warning. I stopped using MSWord a while ago since I was warned that this was the probably cause of embeddedd troubles. Somehow, my last post got mixed up with Word causing the mess up - MY BAD !

I think/hope that WordPad is free from these troubles and am writing this using it. We'll see if it comes out OK - !

I haven't yet read Trav's post but will do so immediately after this.

In the meantime I am going to re-copy my faulty post directly onto the JA forum and am sure that this will not have any of those horrible troubles.

If the original faulty post gets deleted the later copy may cause Trav's post to be an anachronism.

Once again thanks everyone .......... Len

P.S.

If this post goes through without any errors, then it pretty well proves that WordPad is fine - MSWord not to be even touched !!!

Len, I've copied that long post of mine and saved it elsewhere - it's what I do with all my long posts these days anyway. 

Well, good luck with your formatting adventures...

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To: JA-Staff3,

Thanks again.  It seems that WordPad does not corrupt posts to the forums. 

However, I had not noticed that you had suggested in editing posts that had these superfluous nuisances.  However members might be interested in knowing that I don't think that this works - I may be wrong of course !

When you go to edit, it simply shows up your original post BEFORE it has been submitted and hence there is nothing to correct. 

This was the very first thing I tried quite a while ago when the problem first reared its ugly head, and IIRC it failed to work as I have mentioned above.

Thanks all the same for that suggestion.

To Karla

It is interesting to read the opinions of other people, but nothing that I have read has changed my personal opinion in the slightest. 

As I have said several times before I do not consider Dear Esther a game.  Also because something is different or even new does not necessarily mean that it is better or even good. 

As I also said previously if it WERE a game (rather than just an experiment or an experience), and if it 'catches on' then woe betide our beloved

Quest/adventures since there is virtually speaking no interaction possible and nothing to do - one might just as well be a couch potato watching TV. 

I think that this disagrees with your personal opinion but so be it.  I think we shall have to agree to disagree on the matter.

I merely quoted an interview with one of the game's developers and said that I applaud the creativity of Dear Esther and the fact that the developers/publisher have dared to try something different.

The opinion that it's a game belongs to Dear Esther developer Robert Briscoe, not me.

I don't get all this criticism. Did you want them to make Dear Esther more to your liking?

Even if I didn't like the game I would encourage diversity and novelty in the games industry. I don't need or want them to make all games ones which I like, and I can understand why other people like games that I don't. You've still got your gameplay conventions in other games. Dear Esther wanted to be different, and thank god for that - there are already plenty industries in the arts and entertainment industry dedicated to producing conformity.

I've deleted a post that appeared a short time ago (it started "Hi Fein"), as its contents were matched word-for-word with a post made yesterday.

Len-

I edited the original post you made to Fien about the AG article and took out the "size=small" markings you had there.  Karla deleted your most recent post because it was a repeat of what you had already written.  Hopefully, NotePad will take care of this from now on.

[size= x-small]

Karla.

[size= x-small]

[size= x-small]

"

[size= x-small]As I've said elsewhere in this thread: Kudos to thechineseroom and Robert Briscoe for being so creative and for daring to try something different."

But that is EXACTLY where our opinions differ - you are entitled to yours and me to mine.

I don't know WHO the various people quoted &/or linked - and have not got the time or energy to analyze.

But in connection with what I wrote much earlier - I DO *NOT* give any kudos to whoever developed Dear Esther.

HAD HE (or THEY) released it FOR FREE as a freeware experimental experience I would have given full credit - and kudos !

Many people have done that in the past. Or even with a request for voluntary donations to help develop future experiments.

But as it stands - *NO*

Whatever.

Poor dead horsie!

EXACTLY what I was going to say Karla !

WHATEVER

[size= x-small]

JA-Staff3

[size= x-small]

Since I tried again to edit that corrupted version & failed, I started to copy it DIRECT onto the Forum as you saw. I had not completed it and there was still a fair bit left to copy. I had intended to delete the 'bad' original post just leaving the corrected copy but in the 'wrong' place.

[size= x-small]

Howevr thanks for correcting the original which is MUCH better and also saves me some additional work - appreciated. Sorry to cause

Sorry to have caused you the hassle - THANX.

 I WAS *WRONG* .... DARN !

Word pad also causes those probs --- sometimes but not always.

Maybe my computer ???

[size= small]""***Trav*** --- Well, good luck with your formatting adventures..."

Thanx for enquiring ...... reply to above - "Ups & Downs"

My apologies for not yet answering your longer post - one reason being fiddling with the above - another helping around the house to relieve my wife of some chores

Actually I think that you are more with it than I am on these sort of technical-type issues. I think that you have played an enormous number of games, and unlike me, of various genres - not almost exclusively Quest/Adventures !

hich reminds me :- I remember that you wrote a very good walkthru which was posted on JA+ quite a while ago.  I am going to phase out my W/T writing due to my AMD troubles making it more & more difficult to write.  I was always quite a slow-body and now I'm getting sleven slower and full of typos in addition. I am/was always very pedantic  and only once out of a few dozen W/T's made a moderately serious factual error. I have a feeling that you are also very conscientious and reliable. I don't suppose you'd like to write another walkthru' of a more recent game ? Preferably one that you enjoyed very much since IMHO it is a pretty exhausting job (to be 100% accurate. This takes time and wdoubtless reduces oprdinary enjoyable playing time.

And/Or what about being a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, tester(voluntary) of a brand new (very good pedigree) game  startwhich will last during the second half of 2012..

If you are in any way interested, please reply here - one word sufficient "interested" and if so I can give (confidential) details by PM or email .

Thank you for the compliments Len!  I'd theoretically be interested (I have taken part in a beta-test before and enjoyed it very much, btw), and I might possibly have time for that, but not before July this year.  I have even greater reservations with writing a walkthrough, which is a process that I find quite arduous, (since to be thorough, I find it necessary to investigate all the options and possibilities) and I therefore take my hat off to you that you have written so many!

So since I have tons of other work and commitments going on at the moment, I'd rather not commit myself regarding a walkthrough at the moment, and maybe  only possibly for a betatest but only if it takes place after June 2012.

..but thanks so much for asking, I really appreciate it. 

In any case, I'm very sorry to hear about your macular problems, with which you seem to be coping admirably, I must add!

Regarding our gaming backgrounds: Well, I have a feeling that in total you have most probably played more games than I have. 

 I just personally happen to be a curious type of person who has experimented with different genres and decided I prefer the niches of quest adventures, RPG's and strategy games the most. 

However, I can quite see how a person who is used to one "style" of gaming, might not enjoy having to cope with something quite different, since gaming eventually becomes almost a conditioned reflex, doesn't it?  I myself sometimes take a while to adapt to new controls and interfaces and types of gameplay. 

However in the case of this visual novel, I doubt that this style or genre would take the place of quest adventures; people who love the latter don't enjoy too much passivity in their games, right?  They like to think about what to do next and puzzle things out. What it might do though, is attract a completely new audience which might not be a bad thing in itself.

GGRRrrrrrrrr !!!

I'm "Caught between Scylla & Charybdis" - or as the Americans put it more simply "Between a rock & a hard place" !!

If I use WordPad I can save from time to time ,but I am liable sometimesa to get annoying interpolations !

If I use direct typing onto my JA return-post, it can be MUCH worse which happebned to me just now !!

I wrote 3/4 of a long detailed post when some quirk happened and the whole thing vanished into thin air never to be recovered.

ZSo I'll repeat from memory but in TWO parts to minimise the above frustration & waste of tim3 & energy.

I'm obliged to draft all of my posts using Notepad due to the fact that my cursor goes haywire in the "Reply to Topic" window. Then once I'm finished, I do a simple copy/paste. It always works perfectly for me.

Notepad can accommodate text size up to 72, so I'd say that a post can be composed using a very large font, then reduced in size prior to posting. This might not even be necessary, though, because I don't think the large size carries over.

I do all of my Notepad composing in font size 10, and I don't touch the "Font size" drop-down in the reply window. The font size you're reading now is the one in which they're posted (obviously). And as Notepad is a simple text program, there are no formatting tags involved; at least none has ever shown up in any of my Notepad-composed posts.

I can't guarantee that this will work for everyone. All I can say is that it works for me, and it's a lot better than watching my cursor go insane.

Originally Posted By Len Green (12 MAR 2012 4:32pm)
 

I wrote 3/4 of a long detailed post when some quirk happened and the whole thing vanished into thin air never to be recovered.

Hmmm. Maybe God likes Dear Esther.

Karla

MANY THANX for your suggestion re Notepad - I'll it in my next post !

If I can use 28 or even 35 (due to my failing eyesight) and then reduce it to 10 before copying & pasting WITHOUT probs - terrific !

Thanks again !

SirDave

You could be right that "Maybe God likes Dear Esther" since there was NO mention of it/her in my long poswt which got deleted - ONLY stuff about walkthru,s & game-testings ?!?!

Maybe that offended Him, Her, It ???