| 17 MAR 2003 at 11:48pm |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Putting a grade on a review ……and what minute detail causes one to add a plus or minus. Is a ‘C minus’ a ‘D plus’? In many cases a review is the opinion of that reviewer. This is the wrong way to do a review. I will admit this peeve only bothers me when I see a failing grade. What is a failing grade? Well I guess that would be up to the reader. When I read a review with a grade on it, and I am not trying to be smart here, I ask myself what higher entity has touched you on the shoulder and made you a ‘Review God’.
Does a reviewer’s personal likes and dislikes play a role in grading a game in some cases? This would be very wrong and mislead the reader.
Some reviews are done with experience and professionalism like Ray Ivey’s and Tom Houston’s reviews, not to mention Randy’s and there are others not mentioned. They have played many a game and if I let reviewers make my buying choice it would be one of them. At the same time there are some elements of a game that they would not like that I would. I do not know their reviewing techniques and would like to hear some of them.
Some reviewers grade the story, graphics, gameplay, sound, handling of the game and so on, separately, and then take the average and come up with a grade. What’s wrong with this picture? If the graphics and sound get a ‘D’ and the gameplay and story get an ‘A’ , is the final grade a ‘C+’ or ‘B-‘ ? If I did not care about the graphics and sound, the final game grade would be an ‘A’ game in my eyes. This is a very bad way to review a game.
For the longest time I would hold off on buying a game that had been labeled a ‘C’ game. I figured it was not a very good game. JA was my only information site at the time so I did not read other reviews. Somewhere along my gaming years, before I started retrieving my own information on the games, I started to read other reviews. I saw a big difference in opinions. In one case one reviewer gave a game an ‘F’ and on the same information site another reviewer gave it an ‘A’. There are a lot of people out there who depend on the reviewer to make their buying choice. When I saw that ‘F’, I definitely was not going to buy the game. Later when I saw the game labeled ‘A’ I decided to buy the game and it turned out to be a good game for me. I almost missed out on an enjoyable experience. I see people on this board tell others that a game stinks, then some come back and say the game was great. Thank God for that. I guess that is what these forums are all about. Once again a comment like that could have stopped a person from playing a game they might like and one more sale of that game thus not supporting the genre.
Why do we put a grade on a review and how does one decipher what grade to apply? Is it some special insight? In some cases, like I said earlier, a grade is applied according to that reviewer’s likes and dislikes which may differ from yours or mine. In a few “professional reviews” the grade is applied, based on the knowledge of what makes a good game but show me the book where “What Makes a Good Game” is outlined. A review should not judge the game but explain/describe the game.
Not only can a bad grade stop one from playing a game they might enjoy, it can KILL sales of that game before it even hits the stores possibly stopping the development of another adventure game. For a while there, adventure games looked to become obsolete here in the US thanks to certain magazines that would just tear what we cherish all to hell. Randy can back me up on this one. If it were not for the great love of adventure games overseas, their developers, JA and Dreamcatcher, we would all be playing with………..right now.
Ray Ivey has always said that a poor game will not save the genre and I agree 100%. On the same hand, a negative review and poor grade could stop that developer from doing a better job next time. Imagine yourself developing a game that takes 2 to 4 years of your life, this is longer then it takes to make a movie and a lot of hard work, and someone out there you do not even know does not like your game for certain reasons and tells the world, killing the sales of your ‘work of art’. It did not even stand a chance. Would you try again, probably not. That developer’s next game could be excellent but they could not afford to do another because of a lack in sales or have been discouraged to do so.
I also believe the unprofessional handling of reviews and grading, by individuals and computer magazines, just about killed adventure gaming in the US. Again, if it had not been for Randy with JA and Dreamcatcher pulling together working with overseas developers, we would all be buying adventure games from overseas at a higher cost.
Are there a lot of failing games? I guess that would depend on the grade and what letter you consider failing, not worth trying.
I guess the point I am trying to make is to drop the grades, the stars, the thumbs, etc. A review should not judge a game by putting a grade on it but should explain/describe the game in detail from head to toe and let us decide if this is the game we want to play.
I just want to say this one last thing, do not let a grade stop you from playing a game but if you are going to listen to a grade, get many opinions or find a reviewer whose opinions run along the same lines as your own.
Whewwww…….got that off my chest, now I can breathe again.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 2:07am |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Whoaaaaaa...
I think you're underestimating the reader. I think pretty much all of us actually read the review, and I certainly hope nobody decides to buy a game solely on the final grade. As you said, not all adventure gamers are built the same. That's why there's a bunch of text between the top of the review and the grade. This helps people decide whether the game is right for them. The review might say the game is filled with tile puzzles, mazes, undeveloped characters and a tendancy to crash when the full moon is out. The grade: F. But heck, if I have a love of sliding tiles, mazes, flat characters and fixing my computer, this game would be great for me. I think the end grade is just nothing more than how the reviewer felt about the game.
I'm not so sure about the whole give-everyone-good-grades-because-they-worked-hard philosophy. What would be the game designer's incentive to make a quality game if he was assured good reviews and good sales no matter what sort of crud he slapped on the CD? The only way the genre will ever evolve is if we chastise the bad games and give props to the good games. When only good games make a profit, game developers will work hard to make only good games.
I've got a couple more thoughts, but I also have a couple more pages of homework staring me in the eye...
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 2:21am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Orion (17 MAR 2003 11:48pm)
When I read a review with a grade on it, and I am not trying to be smart here, I ask myself what higher entity has touched you on the shoulder and made you a ‘Review God’.
No one. And no one also asked the readers to take the reviews as gospel.
Does a reviewer’s personal likes and dislikes play a role in grading a game in some cases? This would be very wrong and mislead the reader.
Do bears sh*t in woods? I don't see how the reviewer's personal tastes and experience could possibly not influence his/her view of a game.
A review should not judge the game but explain/describe the game.
IMO a review should do both. A technical description of game mechanics does not convey any information about whether the game was actually fun to play. Of course the problem is that "fun" is a relative quality.
Not only can a bad grade stop one from playing a game they might enjoy, it can KILL sales of that game before it even hits the stores possibly stopping the development of another adventure game.
That might be true if there was a single source of reviews. Last time I looked, there were quite a few. Of course if all of them say that game X stinks, there's a good chance that game X really stinks.
That developer’s next game could be excellent but they could not afford to do another because of a lack in sales or have been discouraged to do so.
So you say we should buy crap because the next version might be better? I'm afraid this only works for Microsoft
I guess the point I am trying to make is to drop the grades, the stars, the thumbs, etc. A review should not judge a game by putting a grade on it but should explain/describe the game in detail from head to toe and let us decide if this is the game we want to play.
Ain't gonna happen. People play games to have fun and again, fun is subjective. Reviews do make value judgements about the subject matter and those judgements are not objective. Fact of life. Even an "objective" review isn't because what and how it chooses to describe is subjective.
I just want to say this one last thing, do not let a grade stop you from playing a game but if you are going to listen to a grade, get many opinions or find a reviewer whose opinions run along the same lines as your own.
Absolutely. Never ever rely on a single review, unless perhaps you know that the reviewer's tastes match yours really closely.
I forgot my sig.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 3:11am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5540
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I find it also helps to get to know the game reviewers, so to speak. I've read most of the reviews on the JA+ site, and it has helped me get a feel for how the reviewers tend to grade, personal likes/dislikes, and so on. Some JA+ reviewers tend to grade games higher than I do, some lower. That's fine -- I take that into consideration and make allowances for that when I read their reviews, and I've found it works well in judging how much I would like a particular game. No, I can't say reviews with grades bother me, and actually are fairly helpful if I know how the reviewer thinks.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 3:53am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | There's no doubt that grading AGs is a double-edge sword especially these days. I actually find it helpful to have a grade given, but what I also find interesting is that whether a game gets a good or bad grade, I'm just as likely to try it (especially if it is a Myst/Riven-type game).
In fact, some games are so bad, they're good, if that makes any sense....
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 4:50am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Yeah you are right in that SirDave grading is double-edge sword as you said!!
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 4:54am |
Randy-JAJourneyman
Posts : 1351
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | SirDave said:
In fact, some games are so bad, they're good, if that makes any sense....
Makes perfect sense to me! That's why we started the Dungeon of Shame. There are games that are just bad and then there are games that are so bad that they're fun to play in a weird sort of way. These are my favorites.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 5:02am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | aaaaah now i get it!!
Yeah i can agree with that. Some games are SOOOOOO bad you just enjoy playing them!!
eg Sudden Strike 2. Gee the game is sooooo crappy!!! I don't think that many of you dared to play this "game"
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 7:18am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | If a review doesn't judge a game, it's not a review, and it's largely useless. When I read a review I want to know if the game is worth my money, period. I don't want to hear an unbiased general description, because chances are I already know about the game from reading a preview. This namby-pamby stuff about "bad reviews could discourage developers and cause people who might enjoy the game not to play it" is just pure horseshit. If you're so disheartened by having your game reviewed badly, I have two things to say to you:
1) If you had made a better game it wouldn't have gotten bad reviews.
2) Toughen up and be a professional, you pansy.
To the bad review stopping people from playing the game, I have only this to say. This genre has a lot of hardcore fans that will play anything they can get their hands on. They will play your game regardless. To the people who are on the fence and need to read a review to enjoy a game, reading a review will tell them what is good about the game and what isn't, and give them an overall critique of the game's quality, and will help them make their decision. Saying this is somehow a bad thing is ludicrous.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 8:04am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | jujigatame you are in some things and i agree that you should never grade a game (but we have to!!).
gamedomain never grates the games!!!!
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 8:24am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Actually, you're wrong. GamesDomain puts ratings on all their reviews now. Go to one of their newer reviews and look at the heading. See those 5 boxy icons with space invaders characters in them? That's the rating, out of 5.
Numerical (or alphabetical) ratings are used to show how good the reviewer thinks the game is compared to others. If a customer doesn't read the whole review in making their judgement and chooses just to look at the rating, that's their fault. Giving a rating is just a numerical way of saying "this game was very good overall" or "this game stunk overall." Saying that somehow hurts the adventure game genre is ridiculous.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 9:42am |
StammerGuild Master
Posts : 3894
Joined: 5 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Oooopps sorry about that ....my mistake :-[
Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 4:20pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | IMO a review should meet two purposes. Perhaps the most important one is the one you mention - the reader must know what he's buying (if he's interested of course). The reviewer must inform about every single detail he can think of that might be relevant to the reader.
The other one is to judge the game. By judging I mean to fully explain your thoughts about what you're describing. I think the worst thing a reviewer can do is to claim "the interface was crappy" without giving the reasons. This way, justifying your thoughts, can help a review to be fair and clear. It also can help the developers to understand some problems for their future releases so, as you can see, there's no reason for them to be "discouraged" (if the reviewer rates their game low) as you say.
As someone said before, I think you're underestimating the readers but, if you're right, then it's their problem. They should read the whole review and maybe realize that, even if the grade is low, there's something for them there.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 4:27pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Orion (17 MAR 2003 11:48pm)
When I read a review with a grade on it, and I am not trying to be smart here, I ask myself what higher entity has touched you on the shoulder and made you a 'Review God'.
Randy?
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 5:10pm |
RonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 300
Joined: 26 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I don't think we should undersestimate the number of people that decide to play a game or not just by looking at a review. I'm not talking about the 'veteran'-adventureplayers here, but about people that are new to this genre.
I 'discovered' this site when I was looking for a review of Myst 3. I wasn't playing many adventuregames but since I enjoyed Riven I was curious to this new Myst. After seeing the grades I looked at the rest of the reviews. Only one Syberia-review made me decide to buy Syberia. Only the 'hall of fame'-position made me decide to buy 'The Dark Eye'.
Of course, when reading more about adventuregames and reading more reviews, you don't pay that much attention to particular grades anymore. But the grading-system as it is used now in the Just Adventure reviews isn't right. It's role in people's decision to buy or don't buy a game is too great.
An example: Reah. This game gets two grades that are miles apart (an A and a D). I know that I like this sort of game, but for a newcomer seeing an A can mean playing the game, while a D makes someone completely forget the game.
The only grading system that works is a system that uses the votes of many, many people to come up with a final grade (1 to 10, like in IMDB for example). But even then it can only be used to filter out the 'global' jewels in the genre.
Finding out your own suited sub-genre is a process that just takes longer, as in every other sort of media. Reviews can be great to find out about different opinions, but a reviewer should never come up with one, personal and final grade. At least not this clearly visible in JA's review-list.
Orion, thanks for starting this post and I hope this discussion will produce some results.
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 8:23pm |
ConMolSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 396
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I agree with Orion that I want to see information about the 'mechanics' of the game. Here's a pet peeve of mine. Can you save anywhere? I read a review of Zelda - A Link to the Past for GBA and it said there was a save anywhere feature! woohoo! I can finally get through a dungeon! so I bought it. But guess what? you can save in the middle of the dungeon but if you die you go back to the beginning of the dungeon. I needed to know that. Not one review I found described the gameplay, only that its classic Zelda...well what if I haven't played Zelda before?
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| 18 MAR 2003 at 9:04pm |
| Deleted User | There are 4-5 reviewers who I trust implicitly. I have found that our tastes are similar and I have developed a comfort level with their opinions. If I haven't already made up my mind about a game I will look for what they have written. Some of them finish a review with a letter grade while some do not. I have no problem either way.
Harriet@JA
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:11am |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I am glad there are some who understand what I am trying to say.
Let me try and drive this nail a little further.
I will start by saying I know reviewers are trying to do the right thing but are they going about it in the wrong manner and is the grade necessary? It burns my butt when I see a game given a bad grade because a reviewer did not like the graphics, the story or a combo of events when every ones tastes for a game are different.
I know there are paragraphs above the grade but do they really review a game the way they should, NO!
Why do I have this problem with grades? I once bought a game, that later I learned, was given a ‘D’ and an ‘F’ review. I enjoyed the game and could not understand this. I am sure many others would have enjoyed it too but because of someone’s own personal feelings and grade, the game did not do well. I wanted to fight this because I did not want others to miss out on a good adventure because of a poor grade, which was not deserved in the first place.
The title “reviewer” has a lot of power. Many people depend on reviewers to give them the scoop on a game. But should they have the power to judge that game, possibly shutting it down for reasons they are privy too. That is why I say a reviewer should not judge a game but explain/describe it to me in detail.
What makes a good game? What makes a bad game? Someone show me the rules. It all boils down to reviewer’s opinion. This is the wrong way to write up a review unless duly noted.
I have seen reviews that are pages long and really go in depth about the game. This is the way a review should be handled…..details. For the most part, a single page review does not give enough information for me to even decide whether or not to try this game, yet there is that almighty grade. I like an easy save feature, click on the slot and game saves then sends you right back to the game. Easy inventory access, right click in and out. In my case graphics are a big plus. Who are the characters? What are they like? Do I have to watch this character run for a full minute to get from one node to the other like in TLJ? Is the game full screen or sized down? Is there a lot of talking? Are the conversations easy to manipulate, (unlike Post Mortem)? That game drove me nuts because of how you had to deal with the questions. One has to read all the lengthy questions first, choose one and then hear the character ask them again and in some cases having to ask all the questions anyhow. Had I known about this one detail I would have not bought this game no matter if the rest of the game was great. Then there are the main details to report on like the story, game play, types of puzzles (I hate tic tac toe puzzle like games, they have to be story integrated) graphics, sound, game length (if possible). Is the game tough to beat, will I need hints to finish game and so on. There are many aspects of a game, many, rarely touched on.
Grades change from review to review. So again, why the grade…. tell me reviewers along with how you come to that grade. What are your guidelines or do you use special intellect? I can assume it is the personal thing again. Maybe the title “Reviewer” should be changed to “Opinionator”. Then they can apply all the grades they want. Opinionator, there’s one for the dictionary.
All in all I guess there is no guideline for reviewing a game. One must go on their own gaming experience which leads to your own likes and dislikes. I don’t mind reading the opinions of the reviewer but think the grade is ‘not’ called for. One should not have that kind of power where they can make or break a game especially when the review, shall I say, is not thorough.
If you do let your own opinion make the grade or use the average system, I think you need to re-evaluate the way you review. Take a look at some of some multi-page reviews and learn.
Talk to me reviewers…….make me believe.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:19am |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | There is one more thing, I would like to hear from many people out there what are the important features you like to see in a game and what you do not like.
Tell the reviewers. Give them some ideas.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:33am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Orion (19 MAR 2003 12:11am)
I am glad there are some who understand what I am trying to say.
There are also many who don't. Or maybe I understand what you're trying to say, I just happen to totally disagree.
What makes a good game? What makes a bad game? Someone show me the rules. It all boils down to reviewer’s opinion. This is the wrong way to write up a review unless duly noted.
There are no rules. This seems to be your biggest misconception. Rules making a 'good' or 'bad' game simply do not exist. Every game that some people love others will hate and vice versa. Yes, I know that it makes your life difficult. No, I don't think there is any way around it.
For the most part, a single page review does not give enough information for me to even decide whether or not to try this game, yet there is that almighty grade.
So why don't you just ignore the grade?
Had I known about this one detail I would have not bought this game no matter if the rest of the game was great.
And how was the reviewer supposed to know that? There is a huge difference between reading a review, no matter how detailed, and actually playing a game for yourself.
Is the game tough to beat, will I need hints to finish game and so on.
What if I say that a game was super easy and I didn't need a walkthrough at all and then get flooded by e-mails from people complaining that the game was too difficult for them?
Grades change from review to review. So again, why the grade…. tell me reviewers along with how you come to that grade. What are your guidelines or do you use special intellect?
I usually ask my magic 8-ball. Actually, I don't, but the result is much the same.
I can assume it is the personal thing again. Maybe the title “Reviewer” should be changed to “Opinionator”. Then they can apply all the grades they want. Opinionator, there’s one for the dictionary.
I wouldn't mind being called Opinionator because the reviews I write are my opinion and cannot be anything else. An "objective" review is a myth.
One should not have that kind of power where they can make or break a game especially when the review, shall I say, is not thorough.
What power are you talking about? Am I holding your and and telling you "buy this, don't buy that"? You have to make your own decisions.
Talk to me reviewers…….make me believe.
There is nothing to believe.
I forgot my sig.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:42am |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | MichalN,
You have had nothing but negative feedback with ALL that I've said. I apparently I hit a nerve. I wonder if you are the kind of reviewer I am talking, probably so. Show me how you review. Let's see how good you are.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 1:08am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Orion (19 MAR 2003 12:41am)
You have had nothing but negative feedback with ALL that I've said. I apparently I hit a nerve.
Maybe I just like to argue
I wonder if you are the kind of reviewer I am talking, probably so. Show me how you review. Let's see how good you are.
You should have no problem finding my reviews... just look at my username.
I forgot my sig.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 1:23am |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | MichalN,
After going back to read your post, you are one of those who put their personal feelings into a review and grade it. You tell the world, or who ever, that a game is good or bad. Then grade it based on your own feelings. This is not an honest review. Do you let you readers know this. IF you do, OK!
How to make you understand........there might not be away. I just strongly believe a review should not judge a game but give all aspects revolving around the game.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 1:29am |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 85
Joined: 19 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I know what it is to argue, we all do.
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 1:31am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Orion (19 MAR 2003 1:22am)
MichalN,
How to make you understand........there might not be away.
Orion my friend, trust me, there is no way. No matter what you reply with there will be not even the slightest concession.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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