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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:49am | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger Posts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Today JA has reached as low as 13,776 in the daily ranking of Alexa. Note 1: The traffic rank for JA shown in the very beginning (25,130) is a 3-months average. The daily one is seen a little bit lower in the traffic info. Note 2: Low in Alexa is good for those who don't know about Alexa... PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 3:06am | |
JoGuild Master  Posts : 3313 Joined: 3 NOV 2002 Location: AU, Qld. Status : Offline | What is Alexa Dimi? I think you've mentioned it before but I wasn't quite sure what it was, is it site that actually rates various forums? |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 9:53am | |
| Deleted User | Since there's a lot of talk about Alexa I decided to check it out. I think I have some critical notes about its accuracy. (First ... please don't interpret this as site rilvalry, I'm just interested in the statistics. For the record, the link exchange between Just Adventure+ and Adventure Gamers will be renewed soon.) I have access to raw log data of adventuregamers.com, mixnmojo.com and a bunch of other sites in that network. I compared them with the Alexa ranks and for some reason there is a huge discrepancy. For example it says mixnmojo gets more traffic than adventure gamers, while mixnmojo actually gets about 1/3rd the traffic AG has. Are these kind of sites reliable? Trafficranking.com for example gives a totally different (but also inaccurate) picture. Or is it like Google, in that it also calculates the number of sites that link to it? |
| 19 MAR 2003 at 10:47am | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjgerPosts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Marek (19 MAR 2003 9:53am) I'm sorry to say that all I interpret this as is site rivalry. If it was only this post I wouldn't but there are so many other things that have happened that I can't translate it otherwise. So let's go to my arguments, shall we... Just Adventure was kind enough to offer a link echange with your site so that readers would have a more wide source of information. You decided to take it away some days ago for the ... hypeometer...anyway, that's not that serious. JA has a section called Eye on adventure. When AG has an interesting topic JA always mentions it, whether it is a review, interview or whatever. You never mention JA in your news section (except when they have an interview with your gods LA and Revolution). I've seen in your news section topics like Mystery of the mummy review in x site, but you never bothered to mention to your readers that JA had an interview with Ragnar Tornquist for example neither the Benoit Sokal one. And don't pretend that you didn't know about it because people also wrote it in the forums. And please don't tell me that these were not news... Should I mention also Stinger's behaviour? Some time ago he came around here and he said that he thought that it was bad of JA to review action/adventures and that they did it for a certain purpose, while AG has always reviewed ONLY pure adventures. Well isn't he reliable and honest. Check out his post in that thread: *****"C'mon Moos, there's no reasonable person who thinks that Psychonauts is going to be a pure adventure. We know that. We really don't know enough about FT2 to make that distinction. Having said that, even if Full Throttle 2 was a board game we'd be covering it. Our policy has always been to cover sequels of prominent pure adventures, even if they aren't themselves adventures. This is why you'll be seeing Flashback reviews of Infernal Machine and Mask of Eternity this year." *** http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=35adc596dea0375d37f40292f427d46d&threadid=4676&pagenumber=2 Yeah right...let's go on even further. You do everything possible to give the illusion to your readers that you are the first and the best anywhere around. Stinger has again and again said that your site is the best adventure site on the net (and he did it also in the thread where MegRyan gave him a good lesson about his behaviour but I can't find it right now...you know which one I'm reffering too...) while it is simply not true. Now let's go to another thread that shows how jealous you are of other sites and how you want to create the illusion that you are the best. http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=35adc596dea0375d37f40292f427d46d&threadid=4599 You wanted to make people think that you were the first ones than tothegame.com when it wasn't even true. But please can you tell me WTF does it matter if you were 10 minutes or 1 hour or 1 day faster than them? And since I'm talking about behaviour here let's mention sth also that hopefully you will understand and change in your behaviour in the future. It seems like the mail I sent you some time ago didn't teach you good enough. You have this STUPID rule in your forums of not hating the game. These rules however in your site seem to apply only for LA and Revolution games. Because you my friend, started a whole thread talking about how a bad game reservoir dogs would be before you even saw a god damn screenshot. Link to the reservoir dogs: http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=35adc596dea0375d37f40292f427d46d&threadid=4687 However when people saw the ridiculous screenshot of Ben in Full Throttle 2 that makes him look like a granny who hasn't had sex in 40 years, and people dared to make comments on a product of all-mighty-lucasarts you and your buddies from AG jumped over them like the Lucas-Vultures. Now what gives you the right to judge a game that you even haven't seen a screenshot of, while your forum members not to judge a game that they have seen a screenshot of. Btw here is the link to the thread of Full Throttle so that you don't say I make these out of my mind. http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=35adc596dea0375d37f40292f427d46d&threadid=4679 As a general the AG crew are doing a good job providing news about adventures to their readers and there are some people like Christina whose work I admire, even if sometimes we have different opinions. But the behaviour of you and Stinger is sth more than childish quite often and your jealousy is not understandable. And as a sidenote... Alexa doesn't say that Mix n Mojo has more traffic than AG... Mix n Mojo is ranked 136,972 while AG is ranked 101,118...less means better in Alexa... PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 11:04am | |
| Deleted User | Oh. My. God. I post one small message and I get this whole essay thrown at me. Look, I wanted only to discuss the Alexa figures. I didn't include a disclaimer for nothing. FYI, I informed Harriet about the new hype o meter a month in advance, so that the link exchange could be moved to another location. Just Adventure and Adventure Gamers are on friendly terms. We linked to JA's interviews with LucasArts and Benoit Sokal. Frankly, I'm not going to be pursuaded into a fight. It seems like you have some personal grudge against Adventure Gamers. I feel that whatever I'll say will just make you flip out and write more. |
| 19 MAR 2003 at 11:15am | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjgerPosts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Originally Posted By Marek (19 MAR 2003 11:03am) To JA's lucasarts interview you linked indeed, as I said before anything that has to do with your gods is linked. To Benoit Sokal no my friend you are lying.. http://www.adventuregamers.com/newsarchives.php?start=51 No link to JA there, just to the preview of Gamespot And I don't have a personal grudge against Adventure Gamers as a community. There are some people in your staff whose work I admire and there are quite a lot of forum users who I happen to like as well (especially those that are called bullheaded purists by another member of your staff who I personally dislike) And since I never hide behind my own finger I say that I have a personal grudge with yours, Stinger's and Interpid's behaviour which is justified, if you are looking for reasons check the above post. PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 11:24am | |
StammerGuild Master Posts : 3894 Joined: 5 JAN 2003 Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (19 MAR 2003 12:48am) PERSONALLY. . . . . . . . . . . . . . i am NOT interested!! who cares what Alexa says?! at least i don't Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit. |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 11:37am | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjgerPosts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | Then how come you checked this post? PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 11:52am | |
OrionIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 85 Joined: 19 OCT 2002 Status : Online | I did not know what alexa was. I do now, but am confused (have'nt had my coffee yet). I take it the almost 14,000 is the average daily ranking so JA must be getting around 400,000 hits monthly? |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:11pm | |
| Deleted User | That's kinda what I was wondering too. Does the rank respresent the number of visitors, or is it relative the other sites on Alexa? |
| 19 MAR 2003 at 12:18pm | |
StammerGuild MasterPosts : 3894 Joined: 5 JAN 2003 Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (19 MAR 2003 11:36am) oooooh no DImitri you obviously got me wrong!! i don't mean that you shouldn't post this one!!!!!!! I just say that i never look those statistics because AS ONE WISE MAN ONCE SAID... "Quality is MUCH better than quantity" Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit. |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 3:50pm | |
SirDaveGuild Master Posts : 4940 Joined: 17 OCT 2002 Location: US Status : Offline | I'm sorry, but if one of the primary aims of this forum is to enhance and support the interest in and develop of adventure gaming interest, then IMHO it is not productive to do or say anything that could cause (further) rifts with another AG forum unless there was some sort of original gross provocation which in this case there wasn't. That doesn't rule out the occasional objective comment about what other AG forums do or don't do but overall we should do everything to maintain as good a relationship with other AG forums as possible if our ultimate aim is to support this genre.
The future ain't what it used to be! |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 4:08pm | |
EivindIntergalactic JanitorPosts : 10 Joined: 19 MAR 2003 Status : Online | Hey, what is this?? I thought the days of bashing between JA+ and AG were seriously over? As I see it, Marek simply made an interesting comment on the accuracy of sites such as Alexa and Trafficranking. He didn't indicate that JA+ lie about their numbers, he didn't suggest that AG is better or more honest than JA. The discussion was regarding Alexa, not the "rivalry" between JA+ and AG. Speaking of rivalry, the adventure gaming community is far too small for internal conflicts. The linking agreement between the two sites has been constructive, and the JA+ link will reappear at AG's link page soon. The reason that the link was removed from our front page, is because of our newest feature, the "Hype-o-meter" (which, IMHO, is kinda cool ) The news team at AG are interested in covering all exciting news in the world of adventure games, and we do, of course, also link to JA+ whenever we find anything interesting. If it is right, as you say, that we missed JA+'s interview with Benoit Sokal, I can do nothing more than apologize for that, and try to be more up to date on JA+'s articles in the future. About Adventure Gamers policies.. We have stated that we are not going to cover hybrid adventure (action/adventure, rpg/adventure, etc.), although we can do an exception if the game is of special interest to the general adventure gamer. That's why we would cover Full Throttle 2, "even if it was a board game", but not the newest Indiana Jones, since it is clear that the franchise has very little to do with regular adventure games. Our policy on this is not dogmatic, but our general thoughts on the subject. I do personally respect JA+ for posting reviews of action/adventures, as I enjoy games in the genre, but you will never find a review of Bloodrayne at Adventure Gamers. We at Adventure Gamers are very proud of our site and our news section, and although the updating frequency on our news really DOES matter, I seriously doubt that Marek was expressing any feelings of jealousy or disrespect when pointing out that we were first to post about the TLJ2 announcement (although we weren't ). LucasArts and Revolution are our gods? I'm sorry if you feel that way, but our site is really not biased towards any game developer. I am aware of the fact that you are quite sceptical to the new 3D look in Rev's and Lucas' upcoming adventures, although most part of the adventure gaming industry is quite excited about these new games. Of course, more traditional adventure games like Syberia II, Runaway and Midnight Nowhere are getting the exact same attention on our site. In fact, only three out of ten adventure games on our Hype-o-meter are Revolution or LucasArts. So, I don't know if this clears up anything at all, but feel free to tell me what you think! |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 4:18pm | |
ValGuild Master Posts : 3464 Joined: 2 OCT 2002 Location: US Status : Offline | Um.... no one from JA has even posted to this topic. So "JA" isn't saying anything. Everybody play nice. We can be heroes, just for one day. |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 4:34pm | |
Agustín CordesGuild Master Posts : 5696 Joined: 23 OCT 2002 Location: AR, Buenos Aires Status : Offline | I think it's very clear that Dimitris was looking for a chance to let everybody know what are his thoughts about AG. Which is fine, he can say whatever he wants, whenever he wants but, like Valerie said, he's in no way representing JA. There's no rivalry here, just "personal" issues. Personally, I think such response wasn't justified. Slightly Deranged - Cult Cinema And Games! |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 4:59pm | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjgerPosts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | I would just like to clear out that I am not a staff member of JA so what I say about AG is my personal opinions or if you like the opinions of The Inventory so if you want to hate someone out of my posts feel free to hate me or The Inventory. Eivind you are not among the people I dislike from AG (I made clear before who these persons where) so it is not really suitable for me to argue with you but I will comment on some of the things you said... or maybe I'll pose you some questions that I'd like to be answered: 1) I checked your news section as back as November 2002 (that is more than 4 months). The only entry about JA has been the Lucasarts Interview. JA has also interview Ragnar Tornquist, Benoit Sokal and the Post Mortem developers since then, and let's not even mention all the reviews it has written. How come you missed all these news when you have informed your visitors of reviews of other games of other sites? Please do not claim that you did not see them, because I know that lots of news you get them out of the forums and all these interviews (apart from the Post Mortem one) were mentioned in the forums by your visitors. 2) You said only three of the 10 adventures out of the hypeometer are from Lucasarts and Revolution. Is it maybe because these are all the 'adventures' these companies have in development right now? And another question (although this is really unfair to be asking to you, because you are not among the persons who tell the forum visitors what they can and cannot say) is why does the not already hate the game rule count only for the lucasarts/revolution games? When somebody is saying sth bad about Full Throttle or SamnMax Marek and Stinger are immediately replying with answers like 'are you joking, you've only seen one screenshot' when they can say anything they want about other non lucas/rev upcoming games. I never saw them react like that when people bashed Syberia 2 for example. And I said before about Marek's post about reservoir dogs. I don't go any further because as I said before, you haven't done any of the things I accuse Marek and Stinger of so I do not feel like arguing with you. Btw...if you go to you link page all sites that you link to have a description under them, apart from JA PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 5:22pm | |
| Deleted User | Hello to all, Over the past year or so Marek and I have worked very seriously at repairing the old and often too competitive and hostile relationship between Adventure Gamer and Just Adventure. And until this point we have done it successfully. Marek and I were the people who agreed to posting the AG banner at JA and the JA button at AG (all with Randy's agreement). Approximately a month ago Marek emailed me regarding changes that the AG team were planning for their front page. He told me that he wasn't sure if the JA button would fit on their frontpage any longer and he asked me where he could relocate it that would be mutually agreeable if in fact the move was necessary. He made several suggestions. Time passed and AG removed their comic strip icon and the JA button from the front page. And for the time being, JA has removed the AG banner. I have discussed all of this with Randy and to the very best of my knowledge, the AG banner will reappear at JA (in another location) and the JA button will reappear at AG. That the straight poop from the horse's mouth. There was no dark or evil plot here. It all has been a simple administrative change. It is my personal opinion that this imagined contest over buttons/banners is much ado about nothing. I don't want to see old issues ignited again. As a matter of fact, I will be pretty darn angry if they are ignited again. There is plenty of room in the adventure community for AG, JA, Quandary, Mr. Bill and all the rest. For heaven's sake, let's give this a rest and deal with one another in a reasonable, polite and civil fashion and without unnecessary accusations. And Dimi, while I agree that you are entitled to your opinion, right or wrong, would you please tune it down several notches. There is nothing healthy to be accomplished here. Harriet@JA |
| 19 MAR 2003 at 5:39pm | |
| Deleted User | <walks into this thread and reads all the posts> "Interesting, interesting" I think. "But nothing to add here" <closes the door and take a cab to "Hotel Orphée". > "There's a mystery to solve in Post Mortem. " "Have to check the Bartender and drink a "Morgon 1998" with the police man." [img]http://www.coliseo.cl/screenshots/postmortem/postmortem_screen004.jpg[/img] |
| 19 MAR 2003 at 5:52pm | |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 7058 Joined: 14 SEP 2003 Status : Online | Back on topic... it is not easy to find out how exactly Alexa ranks site traffic and their own website is not very clear on this (a bad sign IMO). But it seems evident that Alexa tracks the browsing habits of people who have the Alexa Toolbar installed. So the rankings are based purely on what Alexa Toolbar users visit. Relevant information is here. Now since the Alexa Toolbar is only available for MSIE users on Windows, this immediately skews the results by definition. Further question is how statistically valid the results are because the Alexa Toolbar users only form a small fraction of the total number of web users. And of course there is the question of possible (or should I say likely) correlation between which people have the Alexa Toolbar installed and which sites they visit. In other words: I wouldn't take these numbers too seriously. I forgot my sig. |
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| 19 MAR 2003 at 8:55pm | |
StammerGuild MasterPosts : 3894 Joined: 5 JAN 2003 Status : Online | OK i had decided not to take part but now it seems that the Godfather has to decide with which side he is. Just Adventure is a WAY too friendly site about adventure games and many other cool stuff (always related to adventures or generally games). JA's stuff is VERY friendly and always tries to help or/and write VERY good reviews!!! Furthermore the forums are EXCELLENT and 'addictive' i could say. GENERALLY i think that Just Adventure is the BEST site for adventure games! Adventure Gamers is a quite cool site! I can find many interesting news and some reviews that many times made me buy a game. The staff isn't the best i that exists!!! I agree with Dimidimidimi that Marek and Stinger are biased and most of the time set 'stupid' rules out of NOWHERE! They also try to offend as many as they can (like in an arcade game)! AG's forums aren't good!! This has nothing (almost) to do with the moderators or the staff. I think that there are many members who log in once in a week or even a month which means that i really can't see any 'personal' relationship between the members!!! NOW............if you want it that way i believe that JA is better than AG ......end of story! BTW Dimidimidimi i agree with you that Cristina does great job at the AG!!!!!!!! FINALLY...... IF YOU WANT THE BEST SOLUTION.....JUST READ THE INVENTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry for any mistakes but it is late here) Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit. |
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| 20 MAR 2003 at 3:18pm | |
AGStingerIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 17 Joined: 16 NOV 2002 Status : Online | It's amazing how those who know so little, can say so much. But the reality is this: Dmitri hates Adventure Gamers because he alienated every single member of our community with his ridiculous ranting, and finally figured out that nobody liked him. Everything he says about the site is nothing more than him still being a poor sport. As much as Marek and I would like to take two hours of our day and tear his incessant, rambling arguments apart, we're a little busy working on our site. And I question the argument that Dimi is in no way representing JA, when it is JA who posts and distributes his newsletter. I do know that there are very good people at JA; I just question the wisdom of providing a forum for someone so clearly eager to incite conflict, and I continue to ask: does Dimi's merciless ranting against the very designers trying to breathe new life into our genre have any constructive purpose? Oh, and by the way Dimi...YOU DIDN'T EVEN ANSWER MAREK'S QUESTION. ~/~ Evan Dickens ~\~&&AdventureGamers.com&& |
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| 20 MAR 2003 at 3:48pm | |
dimidimidimiSchattenjgerPosts : 1784 Joined: 10 OCT 2002 Status : Online | And I was wondering where you've been. Really I miss reading your posts... they are undisputably the most amuzing posts on the net. Ok let's go to your "incessant rambling arguments" so that I can.... tear them apart. You said that I left AG because nobody liked me there etc, etc... If nobody liked me...oh poor me...how come some of your forum members are members of the Nordic Adventure Guild then and how come that with a couple of them I speak daily on hotmail messenger? I've said before why I left from AG...ask Marek or Intrepid..not that you need to, you know already. Apparently anybody who is not pro-lucasarts or pro-revolution has no right to voice their opinions freely in your forums and I cannot stand such forum rules. I happen to visit...wait let me count... 38 adventure / gaming forums in total, of which around 10 in a daily basis. How come I haven't had any problems in all these forums since I'm such a baaaaaad boy? As for my newsletter (you got to love this one... I mean Stingie I missed you man... ) hehe... and me representing JA. Well if I represent JA then I represent www.adventure-treff.de who is already publishing the german edition of my .... newsletter and www.aventurepc.com who is going to publish the french edition of my ... newsletter and www.aventuraycia.com who is going to publish the spanish version of my... newsletter. Damn I have to be the man who represents the most adventure sites in the world and my newsletter has to be the most translated newsletter in the world!!!!! Record Guiness authors...where are you? Oh yes I didn't answer Marek's question (if you are talking about the Alexa question). Wanna know why? Cause there is no point in answering it. Does it really matter what I or Marek think or does it matter (and really burn your intestants) that companies like Ubisoft and Dreamcatcher are basing their advertisements deals on these numbers? And since you continue to ask if my ranting has any constructive blablabl to the genre I continue to answer. Well probably not to the genre. I do my ... newsletter (man please come back and post more, I really missed you) for the genre... The only creative outcome my ranting about your behaviour might have is that some time in the future you might get some level or maturity in you and decide to treat your forum visitors better. And btw, please don't spend as much as two hours of your busy schedule writing responsible reviews ( like the one where you buried post mortem because... omg it was a 1st person adventure!!!!) to come and post here but please come back just for a couple of minutes to say hi or something. P.S. If you want I could add you to my mailing list for my newsletter. I mean don't tell me you don't like it. Or haven't you read it? If you haven't then...don't already hate the newsletter P.S. 2: It is the first time I see someone declaring a war on himself (read under your avatar if you don't get it ) PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com |
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| 20 MAR 2003 at 4:17pm | |
StammerGuild MasterPosts : 3894 Joined: 5 JAN 2003 Status : Online | HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA This was a hell of a funny post Dimitri!!!! You really buried Stinger[img]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/smokin.gif[/img] Resistance is not futile, we're gonna win this thing, humankind is too good, we're not a bunch of under-achievers! We're gonna stand up, and we're gonna be human beings. We're going to get fired up about the real things, the things that matter! Creativity, and the dynamic human spirit that refuses to submit. |
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| 20 MAR 2003 at 5:23pm | |
| Deleted User | I must be incredibly dumb and/or naive but I don't understand why this kind of bashing back and forth is necessary. I don't know what it is expected to accomplish. And I think that it is rude. If someone doesn't like AG (or any other site) no one is putting a gun to their heads to visit it. I am going to commit an unforgivable sin by telling you that I visit AG fairly often, missed it while it was off line and was happy to see it return. o I always agree with everything that the AG writers say - of course not. But gee, I don't always agree with everything that the JA writers say either. I seem to be able to visit a site, agree or disagree and I manage to do it without being tempted to trash it. I don't believe in letting other people make decisions for me. And I don't like bullies and I think that I am seeing behavior similar to that in this thread. Nothing is being accomplished here - just the creation of ill-will and contempt. Dimi, I don't see any reason why you feel that it is necessary or appropriate to put forth such verbal diarrhea toward a site that JA has had relative peace with for a rather extended period of time. Why don't you start a forum at The Inventory and spew this material there. Has anyone suggested that you should become the defender of JA against AG. I think not. I think that this is an example of your personal dislike of AG gone amuck. What is your hidden agenda here? What ever it is I personally wish that you would leave JA out of it. And for those AG staffers who have participated in this event I urge you not to reply any further to this thread. Remove the audience and the tantrum will probably die on it's own. I try not to butt in when JA Forum members are flaming each other. Those episodes usually end in a good natured truce of sorts. But in this case and given the past history of AG and JA I find this deliberate effort to stir the pot beneath contempt. Harriet@JA |
| 20 MAR 2003 at 5:50pm | |
| Deleted User | Yeah, what's going on at the moment? Pass the peyoté, someone... (where's Stooge?) |
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