| 13 AUG 2011 at 5:39am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (12 AUG 2011 1:10pm)
I have not played the later total war games (only the ones up to medieval 2), but I found that, with the exception of Shogun, they all tended to drag after a while (Shogun could be finished in an evening, which was just long enough for that kind of game). The battles were simply too similar, and the strategic part was not deep enough to make it a worthwhile game in itself.
How long the game lasts (at least in the newer ones) really depends on what type of game you play, the difficulty/win conditions, etc.
As well, it's one of those RTS games that doesn't really "end" per se, where you feel like the next game won't be any different, like the Age of Empires and things.
Combat wise, The Total War series has some of the most in-depth combat of any RTS, it goes faaaaar above almost any other RTS games, especially most RTS games that are more 2d focused (IE Age of empires, Rise of nations, Starcraft, Warcraft, etc).
If you know how to use the terrain, make good strategic use of your units, you can best muuuuuuch larger army. Knowing what formations to use, when to attack/retreat, what units to fight vs what, etc can make a huge difference in combat.
I have the newest one, Shogun 2, and playing it smart in one game, multiplayer wise, the team I was on was down to just a handful of units.
We had a huge fight with most of our units and we lost the main fight badly. However my team retrated back to a with a patch of trees behind it.
I controlled a few archers and line of heroic samurai with morale boost abilties, my other teammate had one unit of horse cavalry tucked into the trees behind us (units in trees are hidden), and the other teammate had a few archers as well and heavy infantry.
The enemy had easily triple the amount of units we had, but we had the terrain advantage. We stayed on the hillside and made them come to use. However they weren't dumb, one of them went around the hill and came at his from one side, while the other two came at us from the main side. because of the hill advantage our archers picked off quite a few, but they ran out of arrows, so they just became footsoldiers (not that good either). They finally charged in from each side.
When they fully engaged the teammate brought his horses around to the flank of the main side and when he did I toggled the shout ability to give a morale shock. This caused the front line to waver off some, then while we were losing the backside the line folded around to them, he moved his cavalry back and charged again, broke the line and we wont eh battle with literally about 20 units only.
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| 13 AUG 2011 at 1:16pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Sadly the AI in total war (at least up to Medieval 2, but I've heard bad things about Empire as well) killed most of the need for a real battleplan. You can win by using some very simple tricks, and the AI will repeatedly do exactly the same mistake. Had the AI been considerably better, then the games would feel less repetitive, as it would offer new and interesting challenges through the game. In general, I found the AI to be roughly as bad as the one in Dark Omen (but Dark omen did at lest have levels designed with the AI in mind).
Multiplayer is probably an entirely different story, but I'm not too fond of multiplayer in general (with a few exceptions).
Oh, and by the way, I had the chance to play Archon - The Light and the Dark. Thanks for the recommendation, the game was surprisingly fun.
*edit* Thus far I've had the chance to play the following:
Archon
Ground Control
Shariki
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| 13 AUG 2011 at 3:22pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 817
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ Fnord I've started to look around for a decent joystick & driving wheel.
I've raced with only 2 models of wheel sets since the late 90's: Thrustmaster Nascar Pro - a smooth analog wound spring design with good pedals and a sequential shifter, but it's been out of production for a long time though you still see them on eBay. The springs go flabby with heavy use so buyer beware. Like all analog devices calibration is critical and may wander during long sessions.
Since the 2005 I've used the Logitech Momo Force Feedback. Inexpensive and pretty good though you can faintly feel the gear cogs when moving the wheel slowly. FF adds a lot - some will say a critical dimension - by telegraphing how much gip your tires seem to have - at least that's the objective. The quality of FF response is dependent on a game's FF implementation - the more serious sims taking much pains to get it right. FF NOT about jerky banging "effects" [kids stuff] but to convey subtle wheel grip effects and change in road surface.
I listed my candidates for most influential racing sims earlier. There are a few others that could make the list but they are primarily online multiplayer. If I was going to grab one - rFactor is still the bomb and a large fan base is still pumping out tracks, cars, series, and doodads. rFactor 2 is supposed to come out soon but rF1 is mighty enough after 7 years of steady improvement. It's also quite easy to find a car or series that suits your desired difficulty/learning curve level. Graphics and physics are great.
If you want to go way back, Grand Prix II was the cream of the the crop mid-90's, all the NASCAR racing titles are good - even the last one NR2003 still holds it's own to modern efforts [though I'd lean towards 1999 edition to get a good look at a solid early 3D racer] and TOCA1 & 2 introduced Brit sedan racing to the masses in a fun sim-lite package.
The earliest drivable serious racing sim in my view is World Circuit [1992] the progenitor of GP2. Think of it as the Red Baron of racing - has and does all the basics very nicely just in a very lo-res crude form. I still keep a running copy in my gaming stable.
A really seminal title is Grand Prix Legend. It came out in 1997 but has been vastly improved and carried forward by a committed cadre of enthusiasts. Fan mods and upgrades to the basic core are phenomenal. Mastering a 1967 open wheel GP racer takes committment and is not recommended for a casual spin! Nothing beats it for conveying a sense of speed and near terror... It's still the gold standard for vintage F1 racing IMO.
Oh - joysticks. Until you know what you want, or if you even want want it at all, keep it simple. For casual flying/dogfighting I use a Saitek USB Cyborg Gold. not sure if it's still available new but they must have something like it - eBay is good here. It is a modestly programmable joystick, throttle and twist action rudder controller, on a very small footprint, so it get's you all the basic controls with no fuss and cheaply. Beyond that the sky/$$$ is the limit..
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 1:28pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Looking at joystick prices, it would seem like (if you avoid the brands known for their poor quality) Cyborg V.1 Flight Stick (saitek, looks like a spaceship from some evil sci-fi race) & Logitech Extreme 3D Pro PC Joystick are the ones that are within my price range. I have had quite good experience with Logitech in the past (my super cheap yet incredibly durable gamepad is a logitech). The Swedish Ebay counterpart is not of much use though, I'm finding more dildos than joysticks when searching for joystick, and most of the cheaper ones seem to either no mention port, or use gameports.
As for wheels, I can't seem to find any on the Swedish ebay counterpart.
It would seem like abandonware is the only reliable way to get some of those games. rFactor seem to be free though, so I'm downloading it right now. And I also found a cheap new dual analogue gamepad from logitech on ebay with 2h left to go and no bids, which might work well enough for testing these games (to find out how much I really enjoy them).
*edit* Bummer, it was only a free trial.
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 3:07pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2538
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | I have a Logtek Extreme Pro 3D and it has worked fine for years.
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 4:34pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (15 AUG 2011 1:27pm)
Looking at joystick prices, it would seem like (if you avoid the brands known for their poor quality) Cyborg V.1 Flight Stick (saitek, looks like a spaceship from some evil sci-fi race) & Logitech Extreme 3D Pro PC Joystick are the ones that are within my price range. I have had quite good experience with Logitech in the past (my super cheap yet incredibly durable gamepad is a logitech). The Swedish Ebay counterpart is not of much use though, I'm finding more dildos than joysticks when searching for joystick, and most of the cheaper ones seem to either no mention port, or use gameports.
As for wheels, I can't seem to find any on the Swedish ebay counterpart.
It would seem like abandonware is the only reliable way to get some of those games. rFactor seem to be free though, so I'm downloading it right now. And I also found a cheap new dual analogue gamepad from logitech on ebay with 2h left to go and no bids, which might work well enough for testing these games (to find out how much I really enjoy them).
*edit* Bummer, it was only a free trial.
For joysticks, I recently got one again a few months ago and beforehand I poured over countless Flight sim forums and things asking/searching for good joysticks.
For a great, dependable, highly recommend joystick that is sub 300 range, one of your best bets is the CH products Fighterstick Pro USB.
CH is known for being extremely precise joysticks, with no fuss/muss about anything, they build them quality and will last for a long time (since they make them also for the military use).
You should be able to find them on ebay for around 60-70'ish, they retail brand new for about $100. They also make a rudder/pedals you can buy, to get more control/better simulation if you like, but I'd recommend joystick only to find out if you like such games before you make that jump.
Which can seem high compared to some of the cheapo brands like Saitek (which are known to not last that long) but it is actually fairly cheap compared to other higher-end joysticks, like the Thrustmaster Warthog and things (500 bucks....though it comes with rudder, etc).
However if you want one with force feedback, your best bet is hunting down an older Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystick (usb, the first one had an old ass gameport plug). Which you can find on ebay fairly cheaply. They are known for being precise joysticks as well and the best "Bang for the buck" force feedback joysticks out there, usually around 20-40'ish bucks or so. Otherwise you're looking at mostly high end joysticks for force feedback, easily 200+.
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 8:26pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | That is sadly a bit out of my price range at the moment, in particular as they increased the price from around $100 to over 150€ here in Europe. If I were to order it, then I would probably order it from the US, but a joystick is heavy enough for the shipping to get quite high.
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 9:53pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2538
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | shipping has gone waaaay up, i sent some DVDs to a buddy in the UK and it cost 50.00 US to mail four of them in a small package. the world has gone nuts....mostly because everyone is doing internet ...they will be sorry someday when the sun spots come.
Admin
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| 15 AUG 2011 at 10:08pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Yes, private shipping is incredibly expensive. Still, it is quite often cheaper to order RPG books from the US than buy them here...
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| 16 AUG 2011 at 10:28pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Does anyone know anything about tactical shooters/stealth action games? Were SEAL team & Space hulk the first tactical shooters ever made, or were there any before those two?
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| 17 AUG 2011 at 10:16pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 817
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | rFactor seem to be free though, so I'm downloading it right now
Awesome. Remember that while rF ships with a bunch of tracks and cars it is primarily a mod platform - downloading amazing fan material is where all the action has been since 2005.
I recommend http://www.rfactorcentral.com/ as the best 'one stop shopping' site. It's the primary respository for most custom tracks, series mods and add-ons, and most modders post there first.
Personal preference will dictate in what direction you go as far as the mods/tracks etc you download but in general the higher fan-rated stuff is better produced. An astounding number of racing series and historical tracks have been examined. I'd love to list my fav's but until you get a taste it would be pointless.
While I consider a wheel/pedal set more or less required, a joystick will get you around if you have to.
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| 17 AUG 2011 at 10:22pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 817
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Does anyone know anything about tactical shooters/stealth action games? Were SEAL team & Space hulk the first tactical shooters ever made, or were there any before those two?
I'm not sure if there were any earlier serious tactical shooter than either of these two - but Seal Team is quite an intersting package and one I've been meaning to take a closer look at for some time. Early graphics but a well developed tactical model including 1st person pov. A straight up nam simulator with an interesting manual too.
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| 17 AUG 2011 at 11:22pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Well, I'm currently watching an auction for both a wheel/pedals & a joystick, and as long as it does not climb over 200sek (20€), I'll buy it (then it is just the 100sek worth of postage to worry about).
I'll have to look into SEAL team as well at some point. I never played it, I just remember finding it in a store around 98 (the poor graphics meant that I did not buy it at the time, even though it was just 50sek). I don't exactly know how the game suddenly popped up in my memory after all of these years, but now I'll need to find it.
If you have not played Space hulk (both 1 & 2, they are quite different actually), then I would recommend at least giving them a try. Those two games are really tactical, and the first game in the series somehow manages to recreate the feeling that I think one of the pieces in the board game (if those actually had feelings) that the game is based on would have in that situation. The first game in the series is also incredibly hard and unforgiving.
The board game is by the way the best rules-light tactical wargame that I have played to date.
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| 18 AUG 2011 at 5:24am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (16 AUG 2011 10:28pm)
Does anyone know anything about tactical shooters/stealth action games? Were SEAL team & Space hulk the first tactical shooters ever made, or were there any before those two?
While not before it, but I'd recommend the Delta Force games, the early Swat games, and classic Rainbow six as some of the main ones that brought out that genre.
R6 one of the few that still goes on today (though it's drastically shifted from it's roots).
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| 18 AUG 2011 at 10:21am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Delta force, ah that brings me back. I used to play that in school (during history class) . Great multiplayer co-op game.
The current Rainbow Six games feels more like The sum of all fears (an entry level tactical shooter released in 2002). I have played the games you mentioned (well, SWAT from SWAT 2 and forward, but the first two SWAT games are not tactical shooters).
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| 21 AUG 2011 at 5:16pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I now own a joystick! (I traded in a stack of old games that I don't intend to play again for it, so it was nearly free). I actually ended up in a bid war for a F16 flight stick from CH (due to Stiler's recommendation, otherwise I would probably not even have noticed it), but sadly I lost (it got too expensive) I guess the seller is happy, at least.
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| 2 SEP 2011 at 5:30am |
nicolasIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 13 JAN 2010
Status : Online | Well there are many influential or important for their time games.
-Also about Doom and Doom engine games there is one program better then zdoom that is the doomsday engine.It replaces all original textures with hd,adds real time colored lighting and last but not least...it even adds hdr effects!!!
You can use all Doom levels,herretic 1,Hexen and by adding a couple of lines in the config files you can run the best of all Strife !!!
And now about old games!
-Do you remember Wind Commander 3 and 4 ? Both had amazing Fmv stories and were darn good games too.
-Do you remember System Shock 1 ? You can play it now with better graphics and even by today standards it is a great game.
-Syndicate and later Syndicate wars .Both were very complex but great games.
-the elder scrolls Daggerfall was very ahead of it's time with a huge world to explore.
-Outcast was amazing for its time.
-Deus Ex not only was a great game,but showed that action games with multiple choices are possible.
-Xwing and Tie fighter were great! Through if you decide to play on choose the later made Xwing vs Tie fighter balance of power stand alone expansion pack(As the original xwing vs tie fighter is multiplayer only)
-Red Baron was great for its time but even better was Flying Corps Gold...Through if you want to play a game like that better buy online Rise of Flight as it gives homage to those old games but with stunning graphics.
-The last express got a lot of talk for its amazing ai and independent living characters but sank faster then the Titanic...
You can find it in GOG but even if you have the original disks you can play it under compatibility mode.
-A lot of talk in the day also was given to Blade Runner as it also had independent living characters and a ton of different endings.
-mechwarrior 2 was the start of giant robot games and it was a damn good one! I still remember the days we used 2 crappy joysticks together to play those games!!
Through if you have to play one of mechwarrior games, play the recently released for free mechwarrior 4 mercenaries version that is fully patched to run under win xp/vista/7 and looks the best of them all.
-Ms flight simulator was the start of room flying but you didn't really took off until Flight Unlimited was released which showed how a good sim should be made.The flight unlimited Series was so good in fact that Ms managed to outdo Flight Unlimited 3(that was released in 1999) only in 2004 with fs2004.....But still if you want to play one ,X is the choice -along a couple of expansion packs and the service packs that add dx10 graphics.
-PS if you want to buy a good joystick try to either find a hotas or cougar (they do not have force feedback but are of excellent quality almost indestructible as they are of solid steel).IF you don't find those then go for the logiteck solution.
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| 2 SEP 2011 at 7:13pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Ca I play Sys shock two on Xp? And is it worth playing without the first part?
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 3 SEP 2011 at 9:04am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | -Also about Doom and Doom engine games there is one program better then zdoom that is the doomsday engine.It replaces all original textures with hd,adds real time colored lighting and last but not least...it even adds hdr effects!!!
Does it add any form of mouse look? That is my main issue with older (pre-quake) shooters, the lack of mouse look just makes them feel slightly awkward these days. I have played Doom in the past though.
And now about old games!
I have played all of those, but thanks for the recommendations, they were all quality games (and I plan to re-visit Outcast soon).
Ca I play Sys shock two on Xp? And is it worth playing without the first part?
Yes, and yes. Remember that the dark engine (the engine used for System shock 2 & Thief 1-2) dislikes dual core processors, but there are simple ways around it. If you do find a copy of SS2, I can give you instructions on how to start it.
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| 5 SEP 2011 at 10:41am |
nicolasIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 13 JAN 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dwwa (2 SEP 2011 7:13pm)
Ca I play Sys shock two on Xp? And is it worth playing without the first part?
Yes you can !! You don't have to play the first part as they are different games.Through the first game is an amazing experience on its own right,the second is much much better.
(You may need to set the launcher/setup installer to combatibility mode win98, "maybe use vdm sound too" )
Just don't forget to go to http://www.sshock2.com/ through and
http://www.systemshock.org/index.php?board=2.0 to download the official patch,the unnoficial updates,the high res textures and if you want the new 3d models.
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| 5 SEP 2011 at 10:49am |
nicolasIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 13 JAN 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Fnord (3 SEP 2011 9:04am)
-Also about Doom and Doom engine games there is one program better then zdoom that is the doomsday engine.It replaces all original textures with hd,adds real time colored lighting and last but not least...it even adds hdr effects!!!
Does it add any form of mouse look? That is my main issue with older (pre-quake) shooters, the lack of mouse look just makes them feel slightly awkward these days. I have played Doom in the past though.
And now about old games!
I have played all of those, but thanks for the recommendations, they were all quality games (and I plan to re-visit Outcast soon).
Ca I play Sys shock two on Xp? And is it worth playing without the first part?
Yes, and yes. Remember that the dark engine (the engine used for System shock 2 & Thief 1-2) dislikes dual core processors, but there are simple ways around it. If you do find a copy of SS2, I can give you instructions on how to start it.
Yes you can mouse look,jump,duck,set your kind of crosshair,have eax sound,the whole package!!
Yes..i am currently replaying Oucast myself with the hd patch...God it looks wonderfull and this is a 12 year old game....
And on System Shock 2 as i said before,set the launcer or the installer if you have problems with the installer too on combatibility win98 mode.Maybe you need to install vdm sound too.Also thanks for reminding me Fnord! ,you may have also to use imagecfg,a small patch program that enable older game to play with multiple core processors without having to go to the control options to the cpu affinity and disable the other core(s).You just download the program from here http://www.robpol86.com/index.php/ImageCFG and put it in the game directory and run this
"imagecfg -a 0x1 game(your game file).exe"
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| 21 SEP 2011 at 10:31pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By rokoro (5 SEP 2011 10:41am)
Originally Posted By dwwa (2 SEP 2011 7:13pm)
Ca I play Sys shock two on Xp? And is it worth playing without the first part?
Yes you can !! You don't have to play the first part as they are different games.Through the first game is an amazing experience on its own right,the second is much much better.
(You may need to set the launcher/setup installer to combatibility mode win98, "maybe use vdm sound too" )
Just don't forget to go to http://www.sshock2.com/ through and
http://www.systemshock.org/index.php?board=2.0 to download the official patch,the unnoficial updates,the high res textures and if you want the new 3d models.
That's exactly what I've been wondering about! Thanks a lot!
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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