| 10 AUG 2011 at 1:37am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 833
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Are you looking for any suggestions? Leaving your categories intact I'd add Combat Mission to Strategy. CM makes a good triumverate with Panzer General and Close Combat for games that took military strategy far beyond just turn based boardgame ports.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 2:33am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | Good list.
I feel Another World deserves to be there, and not just because it's a favorite of mine. It came a year after Prince of Persia, but it was probably the first game which felt like (and was) a fully crafted world, rather than have identically programmed enemies and scenery dropped in around the place.
I don't know if you want to include one of the first interactive movie-type adventures with FMV. Not sure which was the first (Quantum Gate, 7th Guest?), but I remember a big deal was made about it back in the 90s, though it may seem insignificant now with many games using FMV. Actually, I just noticed you've got 7th Guest so forget it
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 5:21am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | Some noteable games that I think are still relevant/fun to play.
RTS:
Myth I/II. Bungie's big RTS games that were the "halo" of the RTS world back in the day. The main thing that set it apart from other RTS games was the lack of ANY micro-management. There's zero base building or anything int he game. It's a heavily story-focused RTS that tales a storyline as you control a limited number of units throughout that lv. It's told through the journal of one of the people in the army.
The gameplay is sublime, even to this day it's fun. IT was one of the first RTS games to use physics heavily, bodies rolled down hills, blood would pool up, etc. AFter a big battle you'd see bodies/body parts laying all over it, with the earth scorched and littered with blood. It didn't disappear or anything like most rts games.
Combat also relies heavily on the terrain. Taking the high ground allowed range units longer line of sights, etc. The weather also affected things, such as rain/snow putting out fire arrows/molativ cocktails. You could make use of fire in various ways, from burning tall grass (Which did more dmg to enemies in it) to using it to lite satchel charges your dwarves placed, etc.
While the official community died long ago when Bungie sold out to consoles and took b.net down, there's still a dedicated fanbase that plays both Myth I and II online via http://www.mariusnet.com/, so you can play it online too.
Sacrifice This was a game that at the time of it's release it got critical praise, but simply did not sell that well. I'm not sure why, because the game itself is a blast and very unique, even to this day.
The thing that makes it so great is both the Art-style (very surreal) and gameplay.
You control an avatar throughout the game. There's no "hand of god" with a wide open zoomed view to see everything, if you want to do something you have to move your character around and command things/use abilities, etc.
The neat thing about the game is that it has a branching storyline. You basically choose between various Gods to align yourself through for story reasons. Depending on which God you choose to serve it affects the story and also what units you get access to.
In the game you basically go around the battlefields claiming "souls" which in turn allow you to take the souls you obtain and build units and things with.
Action -
Severance (aka Blade of Darkness) Do you like melee combat games? Things such as Rune, Die by the Sword, Drakan, etc? Then this is a game you'd like.
Severance was the first game to make full use of real-time lighting effects (yes before Doom III).
However what made SEverance so special is it's unique combat system. To this day the game still has, hands down, the best melee combat system of any game.
The way it's setup is so simple, yet perfect. If you've played Rune or almost any other melee combat game things just don't feel "rigihit" once you've played Severance and learned it all.
The game features 4 characters to choose from. Each character is different in terms of both the starting area, as well as what equipment they are good with. For example, the Barbarian is good at using big weapons, such as two=handed swords and polearm weapons. The Knight is good at using shields/one handed weapons.
Each character has their own movesets along with unique moves tied to specific weapons. (So sword combo's aren't the same as say, a polearm).
What makes it so fun is how the combat works. There's no "wishy-washy" feeling,w here you don't feel connected to things, and don't have need to play defensively or care about your enemies. The game makes it VITAL to make use of dodge/blocking, to anticipate your enemies moves and counter it. The enemies don't cheat either, they can be making a swing for you, you dodge, and it hits the other enemy in the head, sending it flying off an dkilling him.
The game features plenty of dismemberment and things, you can even pick upj a poor guys arm and beat him with it (Though it's not an effective weapon at all lol).
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 7:49am |
OrmworIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 24
Joined: 4 AUG 2011
Status : Offline | Good list but it's name is contradictive. Like you said, not all influental games are worth playing.
As for the list itself: I agree about Another World, Myth, Combat Mission, and Sacrifice, but not sure about Blade of Darkness. It's good (and even great) but I don't think it's influental. Why Blade of darkness and not, say, Die by the Sword?
My suggestions:
ADVENTURE
Maniac Mansion and Leisure Suit Larry.
The Dark Eye. The first (one of the first) game that experimented somewhere between interactivity and good old puppet animation.
A Mind Forever Voyaging. IF-exploration of the entire city long before GTA. And the city changes in time.
The Last Express. Adventure in the real time.
What's so special about Monkey Island?
STRATEGY
Empire. This game inspired Civilization. Period.
Z. Dawn of War and Company of Heroes are based on it.
Commandos. New tactics/puzzle genre was born.
Jagged Alliance and Syndicate. Games that defined tactics genre. I'd say it's X-COM without bases and researches.
Master of Orion. The father of all space-empire-building strategies.
Homeworld. This game took RTS into space.
Defender of the Crown. Total War in its infancy.
Creatures. First and the only series about AI upbringing.
The Sims. First strategy about everyday life.
Bandit Kings of Ancient China. Another step to Total War. Actually Total War just combined well-known elements.
Battlezone.
Star Control II.
Sid Meier's Pirates!
Emperor of the Fading Suns.
Soldiers: Heroes of World War II combined Commandos and Close Combat.
Perimeter. Completely original.
Not sure about WarCraft and C&C - they are clones of Dune II. HoMM series is a clone of King's Bounty. Or not a clone but development of the same idea.
CRPG
Dungeon Master.
Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment are great but not completely original after Fallout and D& computer games.
SPORTS
Earl Weaver Baseball
What's special about Mario Kart?
ACTION
Catacomb 3-D. Add it to Wolfenstein 3D.
Tongue of the Fatman.
Arkanoid.
Can't see anything special about Duke Nukem 3D (Duke Nukem platformer also), Spec Ops, Braid and more from your list.
OTHER
F-19 Stealth Fighter
Microsoft Flight Simulator
General Note: I'm Russian and my English is not good. If you think that I'm rude, it's just wrong selected translation of what I politely mean.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 9:13am |
markornikovJourneyman
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Posts : 1312
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Magic Carpet II
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 10:26am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1653
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | The Longest Journey, Dreamfall, Syberia 1 and II, Sherlock Holmes, Oblivion. Lots more.
_________________
Exercise your vision.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 11:01am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Darn, I forgot to to add a lot of games to my original list. I've played Combat mission (own the second game in the series). It is good and I like how they handle order giving in it.
I have a soft spot for FMV games & cheesy FMV sequences in general. I've never played Quantum Gate, so I'll have to check it out. As for Another World, I own the SNES version (and I have also played its little known sequel Heart of the alien, which was an even better game)
Good call about Myth, I had nearly forgot about that series- I'll have to see if I can find it. As for Sacrifice, I really wish it had become more influential , but alas it feels like one of those great games that time just forgot. I know next to nothing about Severance, so I'll have to check that one out as well.
Maniac Mansion and Leisure Suit Larry.
The Dark Eye. The first (one of the first) game that experimented somewhere between interactivity and good old puppet animation.
A Mind Forever Voyaging. IF-exploration of the entire city long before GTA. And the city changes in time.
The Last Express. Adventure in the real time.
What's so special about Monkey Island?
I have played the first Larry and also the NES version of Maniac Mansion. I just forgot to put them on the list (like so many other games). As for the last express, did it really influence a lot of games? It was a great game, one of the very best in the genre, but it feels like it is another one of those that time just forgot. I'll have to check out The dark eye & A mind forever voyaging though (at first I thought The Dark Eye would have been a fantasy AG based on Das Schwarze Auge).
Monkey Island was mainly influential due to how it helped popularize the genre and give it a wider appeal. It was hardly the most important game, but games are still trying to emulate it.
Empire. This game inspired Civilization. Period.
Z. Dawn of War and Company of Heroes are based on it.
Commandos. New tactics/puzzle genre was born.
Jagged Alliance and Syndicate. Games that defined tactics genre. I'd say it's X-COM without bases and researches.
Master of Orion. The father of all space-empire-building strategies.
Homeworld. This game took RTS into space.
Defender of the Crown. Total War in its infancy.
Creatures. First and the only series about AI upbringing.
The Sims. First strategy about everyday life.
Bandit Kings of Ancient China. Another step to Total War. Actually Total War just combined well-known elements.
Battlezone.
Ground Control.
Star Control II.
Sid Meier's Pirates!
Emperor of the Fading Suns.
Soldiers: Heroes of World War II combined Commandos and Close Combat.
Perimeter. Completely original.
Not sure about WarCraft and C&C - they are clones of Dune II. HoMM series is a clone of King's Bounty. Or not a clone but development of the same idea.
Empires is a game that I have totally missed. I'll have to check that one out. Z (and its sequel) are games that I own, but that I entirely forgot about. I never thought about how they influenced Dawn of war & Company of heroes, but now that you mention it, it feels rather obvious. Commandos should also have been put on my original list. I forgot about the games that the series influenced (like Hammer & Sickle).
I have yet to play Jagged Alliance, so good call on that one, but I have played syndicate (I just forgot about it). I can't really understand how I forgot about Master of orion though, I have played the entire series (3 becomes good with a few mods).
Homeworld is another one of those games that "should" have been influential, but sadly never really did influence the wider market. We have seen a few other space RTSs, like Star Trek armada & Genesis rising, but as far as I know, none have had full 3D movement.
I've played the NES version of Defender of the crown. Is the PC version vastly different? I just found the NES version to be awkward and clunky.
Creatures & The sims are games that I have played (only the demo for Creatures 1 though. Reminded me a bit of a more complex tamagotchi).
Did we ever see another battlezone-like game (other than Battlezone 2)? I remember thinking that the game had potential when I first played it.
Forgot to put ground control on my list. But I never finished it. Thanks for reminding me, I'll try to play through it soon.
Star control & Pirates are games that I have played (only played the remake of Pirates)
Did emperor of the fading suns influence any games? The game was great (and buggy), and I thought it was so great that I ended up buying the pen & paper RPG that it is based on. But the Master of orion meets Civ-style gameplay was never emulated, was it?
Soldiers & Perimiter are two games that really managed to get under my radar. I just looked at a few screenshots, and they look great. I'll check them out.
Warcraft & C&C both helped popularize the genre. Warcraft 3 popularized using a strong CRPG-like element in RTSs. If any RTS deserves to be on the list of influential games, then it is Herzog Zwei (sadly I don't own a Mega Drive, so I have not had the chance to play it).
HoMM is quite different from King's bounty. HoMM is more of a true strategy game, while King's bounty is a CRPG/TBS(ish) hybrid. KB did influence HoMM heavily though.
I'll finish responding as soon as I get home, but now I have a subway to catch.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 4:34pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Fnord (10 AUG 2011 11:01am)
I have a soft spot for FMV games & cheesy FMV sequences in general. I've never played Quantum Gate, so I'll have to check it out. As for Another World, I own the SNES version (and I have also played its little known sequel Heart of the alien, which was an even better game)
If you like FMV/cheesy FMV have you played the phantasmagoria games and the infamous Night Trap?
I'd recommend both of those if you like that kind of thing.
Night Trap had a big impact on things in the early 90's when it came out with the whole violence in video games thing going on at the time.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 4:39pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | CRPG
Dungeon Master.
Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment are great but not completely original after Fallout and D& computer games.
What Baldur's Gate (and to a lesser degree Planescape) did was to re-popularize the genre. It and Fallout were quite important from that point of view. Dungeon master is another.
I've played the SNES version of Dungeon Master.
SPORTS
Earl Weaver Baseball
What's special about Mario Kart?
Mario kart was important as it helped popularize (or create, I don't know much about this genre) weapon based arcade racers. After it a whole slew of weapon based racers were released.
I don't know the rules for baseball
OTHER
F-19 Stealth Fighter
Microsoft Flight Simulator
Forgot Microsoft flight Sim. I never played the first game in the series, but I have played some of the games released during the 90's. I'll check out Stealth fighter though.
ACTION
Catacomb 3-D. Add it to Wolfenstein 3D.
Tongue of the Fatman.
Arkanoid.
Can't see anything special about Duke Nukem 3D (Duke Nukem platformer also), Spec Ops, Braid and more from your list.
Spec Ops helped create the soldier-sim/stealth action/tactical shooter sub-genre. It pre-dates games like Rainbow Six, Hidden & dangerous & Delta force, and while it was not the first game of its type, it was the first game of its type to reach out to a wider audience. Braid helped start the indie wave that we see right now, and while it had some novel concepts, it is just a well crafted puzzle platformer. Had it not been released, we might have seen the wide spread acceptance of indie games that we see today though. Duke Nukem 3D was a game that I put on the list because I almost expected it to be mentioned otherwise. Out of the games you mentioned, I have only played Arkanoid, I should check out the others as well.
Magic Carpet II
Played and finished I won both 1 & 2 (2 is easier but also better in general)
Originally Posted By Stiler (10 AUG 2011 4:34pm)
Originally Posted By Fnord (10 AUG 2011 11:01am)
I have a soft spot for FMV games & cheesy FMV sequences in general. I've never played Quantum Gate, so I'll have to check it out. As for Another World, I own the SNES version (and I have also played its little known sequel Heart of the alien, which was an even better game)
If you like FMV/cheesy FMV have you played the phantasmagoria games and the infamous Night Trap?
I'd recommend both of those if you like that kind of thing.
Night Trap had a big impact on things in the early 90's when it came out with the whole violence in video games thing going on at the time.
I have played Phantasmagoria, it was the first FMV AG that I played, and probably the reason why I enjoy cheesy FMV games. Night trap was never released on a system that I own, as far as I know.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 6:24pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | ?It came out for the pc
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 6:34pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Ah, I did not know that. The only versions that people seem to talk about are the Sega CD & 3DO versions, but you are right, there is a DOS version out there. Would it be worth trying to track down the game?
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 7:42pm |
OrmworIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 24
Joined: 4 AUG 2011
Status : Offline | OK, Fnord, I got your point. Here are some more suggestions.
Archon - The Light and the Dark (1984): “Archon is a definite gem of computer gaming's past. While it never achieved the critical acclaim of some other games, Archon in its own quiet way has maintained a constant following to this day. Archon spawned two direct sequels, numerous remakes, and has inspired many games, a short list of which would include Star Control, Unholy Wars, Wrath Unleashed, and the Mortal Kombat Chess mini-game in Mortal Kombat: Deception.” (Abandonia.com)
Bioforge (1995): “There was always a unique game that would make a small revolution and start the whole new category of video-games, the one that is the very first of the kind. As soon as that kind of game is released, you can tell that in no time there will be hundreds of "clones" and "look-alikes". And usually there will be another game that will make that category even more popular. So there were Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, Dune 2 and C&C, and so there was Alone in the Dark, the game that started this new category - 3D action-adventure.
Alone in the Dark, naturally had a lot of stuff that could be improved. One of them (and perhaps the most important since the story and atmosphere were great) was the movement of the character. It was much more like a robot than like the man. So, it was just a question of time before some game’d make a serious improvement in this area. The first one was the famous Ecstatica, where the design of the characters was based on ellipsoid and very realistic movement. The next step was the same effect but with realistic design. The next step was Bioforge.” (Abandonia.com)
Doom (1993): “Doom is widely regarded as one of the most important titles in gaming history. It was voted the #1 game of all time in a poll among over 100 game developers and journalists conducted by GameSpy in July 2001, and PC Gamer proclaimed Doom the most influential game of all time in its ten-year anniversary issue in April 2004, and named it the second best game of all time a year later (number one was Half-Life). GameTrailers ranked Doom as #1 "Breakthrough PC Game".” (Wikipedia)
Elite (1984): “Elite was a hugely influential game, serving as a model for more recent games such as Space Rogue, Eve Online, Freelancer, Jumpgate, Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Wing Commander: Privateer, the Escape Velocity series and the X series of space trading games.” (Wikipedia)
Secret of Mana (1993): “Secret of Mana was an influential game in its time, and has remained influential through to the present day, with its ring menu system still used in modern games (such as The Temple of Elemental Evil) and its cooperative multiplayer mentioned as an influence on games as recent as Dungeon Siege III.” (Wikipedia) This game was for SNES.
Shariki (1994): “Shariki proved to be a very influential game and eventually many games that closely matched its mechanics arose. Collectively known as "match three" games, these all revolve around the mechanic of creating a three-in-a-row line of identical pieces. They include: Bejeweled, Jewel Quest, Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords, Aurora Feint game for the iPhone and iPod Touch.” (Wikipedia)
Also take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_video_arcade_games
General Note: I'm Russian and my English is not good. If you think that I'm rude, it's just wrong selected translation of what I politely mean.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 8:38pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Fnord (10 AUG 2011 6:34pm)
Ah, I did not know that. The only versions that people seem to talk about are the Sega CD & 3DO versions, but you are right, there is a DOS version out there. Would it be worth trying to track down the game?
I'd say so, if you understand it's REALLY cheesy/terrible acting.
The main differences are that the Sega CD version had some sega branded stuff in the game, they changed things around to take it out, etc. There's also the second-release (non-red side on the cover) that was censored, after all the media bs that went on back then with violent games (This was the main one they picked on, then Mortal Kombat).
However a trade off is that the pc/3d0 version had twice the quality of the Sega CD version in terms of video resolution/size, so it looks much better compared to that.
PC version also had a save system in it.
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| 10 AUG 2011 at 10:20pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I really need to find a copy of elite. You are quite right about that being an important game.
Archon I had not even heard of. It looks like chess with battle sequences. Would be interesting to give that one a try. Same with Shariki, although I did find a modern remake of that one while googling it. Downloading it now.
Bioforge is made by Origin, so I don't understand how I have not played that one. It looks really good, I think I'll put it high on my "to play" list.
And as for Secret of Mana. I have it on my Wii, and I know that it is a hugely popular game, but I really can't see why people like it so much (but that is a rant for another thread )
I consider cheesy FMV games to be a bit if a guilty pleasure, so Night Trap might well be "good" in the same way as an 80's horror movie is "good". Sadly amazon only have the mega CD version listed at the moment.
Thanks for all the advice. It is obvious that I have a lot of important games left to play. Anyone with some time to donate?
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 1:40am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 833
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ Ormwor What's so special about Monkey Island?
haha I agree. One thing I like about the original list is it's brevity.
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 1:58am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 833
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Oh... F-19? Flight Simulator? Well if you are willing to consider real sims let me suggest these milestones....
Red Baron 1
Aces of the Pacific/Aces Over Europe
European Air War
A-10 Cuba!
Flying Corps Gold
Longbow 2
Mig Alley
Apache v Havok
Falcon 4.0/Allied Forces
Battle of Britain 2
Rise of Flight
IL-2 series
Wings Over.. series
Lock On
And for Motorsports....
NASCAR Racing series
Indycar Racing 2
Grand Prix Racing II
TOCA
F1 Challenge series
Richard Burns Rally
GTR 2
rFactor
EDIT: My god I forgot Grand Prix Legends!!!
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 3:49pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2548
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | Fnord you are embarked on an ambitious project, watching your posts over the past months I had realized you were doing this a while ago.
I did much the same thing when I began my game research many years ago and I went back to the beginning and worked up from there working thru some 700 games over the past 12 years. It does indeed take time...but it is the only way to really understand the evolution of CGI games.
Several stand out for your study:
DOOM: the original and in some ways the most creativly continued by the communty, there are literally thousands of WADS which are the player made levels, some remarkable in their ingeniuty. Quake carried on from DOOM and the rest is history: they led to the FPS class of games which is one of the most numerous and supported today.
I can help you with DOOM by Id, i have collected the best of the levels in two packs, you will need the original games to play them and an emulator loader, i suggest ZDOOM which will make running the DOS format easy as pie:
DOOM
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20633514/DOOM_1_Masterpiece_Wad_Archive_zip
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20633542/DOOM_2_Masterpiece_Wad_Archive_zip
mid way thru the development of shooters..try:
Half Life -Sierra Entertainment Inc or SIN Activision Action Shooter in Graphic Environment, another major genre
and for the advanced form:
Chrome - Strategy First, and Far Cry and Crysis by Crytek, both titles by Crytek are classics and amazingly detailed..ignore Crysis sequels
Next for simulators, as in flight, which was the next step in game development:
Red Baron by Dynamix was the father of them, and it is free thanks to the kindness of the developer, Google should find it, be sure to get the original unimproved version, just this side of wireframe but it is remarkably detailed and good. MS Flight came from that. If you want the other end of the spectrum to see how transportation sims have developed: Microsoft Flight Sim X, Silent Hunter V Ubisoft (with mods, i can give a list) and MS Train Sim (again with TrainStore and Add on Routes, best are BedfordHitchin and SDJR from the UK, will do it. All need additional add ons to give the fullest. I will be doing a feature article on this genre soon. RailWorks by Kuju is the most detailed graphically of the train sims but has developed into a very expensive payware hell, with impossibly complex modding difficulties for add ons.
Adventure games started with LucasArts, Sierra and Westwood, I suggest the SummVM engine which is a free emulator playing engine developed to run the old games perfectly it will run these on modern machines and you can see and feel the best of them very nicely:
http://www.scummvm.org/
LOOM, Monkey Island II, and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, LucasARts, and Kyrandia I Westwood, and one of the Kings Quest,Sierra games will get you thru this genre but they are essential to see the roots of Adventure gaming which really led to most of the action games that came after and continue.
The Longest Journey by Funcom will indeed give you one of the best and most influential adventure games made in the entire genre, it takes the story game to its ultimate. Dreamfall also by Funcoml is the evolution of TLJ and is a fantastic achievement of its own, and worth seeing...another very influential game for it mixes action, adventure and graphic adventure....Puzzle adventure games you can take your pick there are hundreds.... see Myst below
Massive Graphic Adventures, do Oblvion, Bethesda took years and many generations of games to reach this pinnacle, it has no peer and it will be setting the bar for years to come.
Myst Cyan Worlds - the original Graphic Puzzle Adventure, a must for any game student, crude by today's standards but it literally was the sleeping giant that woke to become the modern game universe.
you have done Wing Commander X Universe, etc so you have covered Space Sims well.
Not sure if you have done any of the Star Wars games also by Lucas, X wing or X Wing Alliance will do it for them, both have been updated for modern specs and I can give you the details on that if interested...XWA Updated is here: http://www.xwaupgrade.com/
One section of the SW genre is the evolution of the Quake III: Team Arena game engine, which ran the two SW Jedi Knight advanced games, SW Jedi Knight Outcast and Jedi Knight Academy, both remarkable achievements in the realm of Adventure - Story based - Action - Graphic Adventure genre. Both have amazing community made maps that greatly advanced the game potential and i featured them here: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=193350 and here: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=195403
You should do at least one Tomb Raider EIDOS, I suggest III or IV, and you can get the universal Patch to run them all fine on XP at http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/windowsxp.html the modern games in the series are nice to look at but they are going sadly astray making Lara more and more realistic and less and less Lara. Modern games have amazing graphics and no taste or substance at all most of them.
I have a historic review of game development in our game research archives here which may help you...
http://3dworldandgamedevelopers.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html
feel free to PM me with any questions.
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3D Worlds and Game Developers
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 9:01pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | There are very few "serious" simulators that I have had the change to play, so I'll try to get a decent joystick (that won't cost me a small fortune) and try at least some of them. I have played the original Red Baron (or rather tried to play it, I remember crashing quite a lot), but that was around 97-98. I have also played Silent Service, Silent Hunter 2, a Jane's Submarine sim (which I was horrible at) Jane's Longbow 4H-64D and F15-strike eagle, but I think that is the extent of my experience with more realistic simulators.
I'll also try to check out at least one or two of the more realistic motor sports games (other than Arcade racers like Wipeout, F-zero, Mario Kart, POD & Daytona USA I'm really horrible at these types of games).
Myst was the game that re-sparked my interest in adventure games. It has aged surprisingly well. The same can sadly not be said about King's quest, but I have finished the first 3 parts. Loom is one of the few important Lucas arts games that I have yet to play, but it is on my "must play list", as are the first Kyranida games (I have already finished the third game in the series)
I have played all Doom games (but only actually finished 3 without cheats). The games were very important for their time, but I find the controls to be a bit on the awkward side these days (I'm too used to mouse look). Sin & Chrome are games that I have not played though (Chrome does look rather tempting though).
And as for Tomb Raider, I have played the original game & Angel of darkness (the first game was good, Angel of darkness was not though, the controls were just awkward).
I never finished Jedi Knight 2 (Outcast), but I have finished the first game, plus Dark Forces and I've also spent quite a lot of time with X-wing vs Tie fighter (though I need to play the original X-wing & Tie fighter at some point). I have played through the first 2 levels of Jedi Academy, but the strongest memory that I have of that game is repeatedly managing to get my lightsaber stuck in trees (The throw lightsaber power had its downsides )
Currently I'm giving Ground Control (which was recommended above) a playthrough. Not only was it an important game in the history of real time tactics games, but it is also an important game for my country, being one of the games that put Sweden on the gaming map. Its graphics has aged really well, and as long as you don't zoom in too far, it even looks rather good. One thing that really gives a clear indication of its age is the way it handles lighting (you might remember the coloured light craze of the late 90's, culminating in games like Forsaken & Incoming.
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 9:36pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2548
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | The First Kyrandia is MUCH MUCH better than the third, Number 3 is the least favorite of most who play them and love Westwood's early work.
Doom controls are very primitive glad you have seen it tho.
Tomb Raider AOD has beautiful areas...but the one control you need to change is the reverse the X Axis and all is well, for some reason, both that game and Dreamfall the developers messed with the X Axis and just about ruined both games for players who did not experiment.
The sims are amazing what they can do these days, Logtech Joystick will work fine. FSX has amazing graphics of the entire world esp if you add FEX and GEX, Flight Environemnt and Ground Environment ...there are some amazing add ons for it too. The sub sims you played were very very primitive to what they have achieved with Silent Hunter III, IV and V, esp with community patches and add ons...all three are amazing tho it is a bit of a sad subject.
Chrome is not as well known as many FPS but it has amazing graphics and some of the most remarkable levels, HUGE ...in any such game. Far Cry is better and a masterpiece.
Ground Control is remarkable, i agree....great detail and complexity. ..as i recall, there is no in game save feature but other than that it is quite amazing for 2000. Glad you have seen X wing a bit, the main ones have been totally updated for modern systems by huge fan projects...and Lucas Arts picked up on that and updated several for XP with updated releases last year. LOOM is remarkable, you will see when you play it, be sure to get the full talkie version and I have a pre game text drama that is not well known that goes with it,and gives background i will get you a copy if you like and if i can find it in my archives Jedi Knight I has also been totaly improved with better models, player character and textures btw.
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 9:36pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 833
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ CG i suggest ZDOOM
What is your opinion of the jDOOM project?
They basically took the original 2D game and created a retro "3dfx" era 3D for it, also implementing the now universal WASD/mouse-look controls, and gave it an XP front end. Graphically jDOOM 3D is very much in the spirt of the first wave of 3D patches that began to appear in the late 90's - they catch the look and feel quite nicely.
Is ZDOOM an emulator just to play DOOM as originally originally designed, or is it more?
@ Fnord: on the subject of military simulators Silent Hunter is a classic, and it has aged very well too boot [almost pun intended] - and you've done that one. Curiously tanks have received far less treatment than planes or even subs - though I'd have to side with Panzer Elite as the most ambitious of the WW-2 era.
If you venture into driving sims a decent wheel/pedal set is a must, but fortunately not too expensive these days. I still rock a FF Logitech Momo which has served me well for years. The racing genre is a world unto itself btw - online leagues are big - sort of like flight junkies who might never actually use the PC for any other purpose.
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| 11 AUG 2011 at 9:43pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2548
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | jDOOM is going quite well, and is a lot of fun for the DOOM fan...ZDOOM is very easy to use and it allows addition of functions that help a lot like Jump...but mostly it just plays the original DOOM easily.
Silent Hunter series is spectacular and the modding for it equally amazing. With the full suite of possible improvements now both SH III which focuses on a German U boat as the main player ship and SH IV which started for US Subs and then added an odd on of U Boats in the Indian ocean are now just about equal in terms of graphics and detail, there are simply amazing mods for both. SH V was published about 2/3 finished and rushed to sale. The community has repaired and fixed most of the bad errors and lacks and it is now quite remarkable, it is a fully realized 3D sub and you can walk among and interact with the entire crew in 3D, the world is more limited, North Sea ....and Atlantic but very detailed and almost photoreal in graphics.
I agree with you that tank warfare has recieved the least attention of possible sim titles, there are a few and Panzer Elite is among the best...there is one for the Afrika Corps that sounded very ambitious and good but I have not seen it yet.
One area we did not discuss are the Total War series that have increasingly detailed massive battlefield scenes with now thousands of individual figures that are customized that interact....the latest is one for the Feudal Era of Japan and looks quite remarkable, i think they can do many thousands of characters at one time. That combines with the Civlization resource and strategy series...but that is an area that has never interested me much, other than the historic genre it occupies in game development. The Roman Caesar and city building games are part of that, intriguing in their increasing detail but really not that interesting in the end beyond the detail for me.
Driving ys a pedal makes it all much more realistic. ditto for flight sims as they have consols that mimic the flight controls but that is a bit more of an expense that Fnord may want to do. Really the main action flight sims, Combat Flight Sim 1, and 2, and 3 and IL 1946 all need joysticks...IL is the best graphically but historically, there are more missions and the entire world to play with in CFS2 and CFS3 is catching up with major add ons for the Med, Europe and now the Pacific. Re other sims, the original Train Simulator has literally thousands of add on routes and equipment for just about every nation on earth, older graphics but much improved for fan made routes.
the sims of flight, sea and rail are remarkable for their detail and what they can do in the hands of skilled players with add ons:
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg231/scaled.php?server=231&filename=oreintexpressinaustria.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Train Simulator Orient Express in Austria 1910
[img]
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg241/scaled.php?server=241&filename=skipton7.jpg&res=medium[/img]
UK Skipton Rail Route from the 1930s MSTS
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg808/scaled.php?server=808&filename=sd3t.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Somerset and Dorset Route MS Train Sim
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg148/scaled.php?server=148&filename=boraboraparadise.jpg&res=medium[/img]
MS Flight simulator X Bora Bora FS X
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg153/scaled.php?server=153&filename=junkers52cockpitoversam.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Junkers cockpit over Greece 1944 FS X
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg148/scaled.php?server=148&filename=bahamasenroutetonassau.jpg&res=medium
[/img]
MS FS 2004 Over the Caribbean
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg151/scaled.php?server=151&filename=vancover.jpg&res=medium
[/img]
DC 3 Over Vancouver (add on by Sandman et al, FS Addons) FS 2004
[img]
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg153/scaled.php?server=153&filename=charts2.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Chart Table Aboard A Uboat VII Class Slient Hunter V
[img]
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg266/scaled.php?server=266&filename=atsea2.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Realistic Surface Environment SH V
[img]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg518/scaled.php?server=518&filename=viewofcapuaig3.jpg&res=medium[/img]
Caesar IV
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| 12 AUG 2011 at 1:02am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | Railroad Tycoon by Sid Meier was pretty influential, if I remember.
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| 12 AUG 2011 at 9:48am |
markornikovJourneyman
Posts : 1312
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Theme Park might be the spiritual predecessor of Roller Coaster Tycoon, but it isn't worth playing anymore, whereas Roller Coaster Tycoon still is.
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| 12 AUG 2011 at 1:11pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2758
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | @ Fnord: on the subject of military simulators Silent Hunter is a classic, and it has aged very well too boot [almost pun intended] - and you've done that one. Curiously tanks have received far less treatment than planes or even subs - though I'd have to side with Panzer Elite as the most ambitious of the WW-2 era.
If you venture into driving sims a decent wheel/pedal set is a must, but fortunately not too expensive these days. I still rock a FF Logitech Momo which has served me well for years. The racing genre is a world unto itself btw - online leagues are big - sort of like flight junkies who might never actually use the PC for any other purpose.
Tanks are rather slow paced, and if you want the game to be realistic, then there will be a large luck factor involved. A hit against your tank can either bounce off like it was nothing, or it can strike a vital part (or the ammunition) which will effectively take you out of the game. There have been at least a handful of tank simulators though (I remember playing the demo for one back when my family just got internet, a 20mb demo downloaded with a 28.8 modem...), but none that seem to have become really popular.
I've started to look around for a decent joystick & driving wheel. A joystick can be had for ~30€ (and it is not a noname joystick that probably won't be properly centered), but a driving wheel can either cost 20€ (I don't trust that one) or 60€+, at least around here. As I don't know if i would actually like the genre that much to begin with, it might be better to just go with a decent gamepad with good analogue sticks (my current gamepad lacks those, but then again, it was a 10€ gamepad that I bought 5-6 years ago, and it still holds up really well).
One area we did not discuss are the Total War series that have increasingly detailed massive battlefield scenes with now thousands of individual figures that are customized that interact....the latest is one for the Feudal Era of Japan and looks quite remarkable, i think they can do many thousands of characters at one time. That combines with the Civlization resource and strategy series...but that is an area that has never interested me much, other than the historic genre it occupies in game development. The Roman Caesar and city building games are part of that, intriguing in their increasing detail but really not that interesting in the end beyond the detail for me.
I have not played the later total war games (only the ones up to medieval 2), but I found that, with the exception of Shogun, they all tended to drag after a while (Shogun could be finished in an evening, which was just long enough for that kind of game). The battles were simply too similar, and the strategic part was not deep enough to make it a worthwhile game in itself.
Caesar 2 was really where the Caesar series managed to reach a sweet spot in complexity vs user friendliness. The game was relaxing, yet challenging. Caesar 1 & 3 were not as good though (I have yet to play 4).
I never really considered railway simulators, but I'll have to give at least one of those a try as well. The only one that simulates railroad building that I have played is A-train (if you don't count the curiosity that is SL the game, which deals with public transportation in and around Stockholm, around 97-9.
Many of MicroProse's early Tycoon games did turn out to be rather influential. I never played Railroad Tycoon, but Transport tycoon was really good. Railroad tycoon is free these days, so I should check it out ground control is by the way also free, for those who are interested. You can find it on fileplanet).
Theme Park might be the spiritual predecessor of Roller Coaster Tycoon, but it isn't worth playing anymore, whereas Roller Coaster Tycoon still is.
Theme park had a rather interesting "side game" if you played with full realism and a few competitors, and that was the stock trading game. I agree with you about Roller coaster tycoon being the better game though.
These days it feels like they are slapping the tycoon label on almost every low budget management game in order to ride on the older tycoon games good name. Heck, they even made a toilet tycoon...
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