| 9 JUL 2011 at 1:16am |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ CoD - Role playing games are games played with with a printed set of rules, a few miniature figures that represent you and your cohorts, and dice [and pencil and paper etc.]. Sometime there is a neutral officiator - a Dungeon Master - who knows a lot of things that none of the participants know [he/she reads the adventure booklet before hand and leads things along] - and acts as a sort of god figure to resolve questions of what you aree supposed to know, what's was going on, what your options are and so forth.
Dungeons & Dragons, Call of Cthulhu etc., etc. are RPGs. If you go to a 'real' game store there are sections full of the stuff since it's still popular because it's fun and interactive in a non-computer way.
On the PC, the computer replaced the Dungeon Master and all the time consuming bookkeeping work, and let a single player run through a quest without the need of assembling a group to play it out. None the less the paper/pencil style still thrives because of it's real-life communal aspect.
Board games in general are on the rebound right now since they offer a communal experience as well.
There is much more to it than that, but that's the gist.
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 11:06am |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Yeah, and some RPG games use the rules of those board games, right? Like Nevervinter Nights? Although I'm much more of a fan of RPG's like Mass Effect, Oblivion and Witcher. I remember Drakensang... Pick up plant- fail, then LOAD, then fail again... I have to load a game every time I fail something... Not very fun mind you... I hated all that luck segment... Maybe cool (and only way to do it in a board RPG) but not so fun in a computer game.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 11:41am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | You will find that in real pen & paper RPGs (with a good GM (game master, same as Dungeon master (DM)), there won't be a huge luck factor involved. A lot of things don't need a dice roll to begin with.
Don't worry about the flowers in drakensang, there are plenty of them, so even if you fail to get 2/3, you will still have enough for whatever you plan to do. When I played through Drakensang, I ended up investing heavily in Alchemy and the two gathering skills.. and then I ended up creating like 3 potions...
In the sequel I had almost managed to learn from my mistakes, I created plenty of points... which I ended up not using, because I felt the need to save them "in case I run into a very hard fight".
There are plenty of CRPGs that are based on pen & paper RPGs. Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter nights (which was incredibly faithful to the D& 3.0 rulesystem, bummer about the story though, which was horrible), the goldbox series are just a few of the many D& games, Drakensang & Realms of Arkania is based on The Dark eye (German game), MegaTraveller is based on, well MegaTraveller, Fallout was supposed to be based on GURPS (you can still see traces of it in there), Vampire the masquerade bloodlines is kind somewhat faithful to Vampire the masquerade (storyteller system). There are plenty of other pen & paper RPGs which have had games made of them, but which don't follow the ruleset, like Drakar & Demoner (Dragonfire: The Well of Souls outside of Sweden), Fading suns (my favourite RPG setting to date) , another Vampire game and so on. Heck, there are games that have gone the other way, games that started as computer games and have been turned into pen & paper games, like Dragon Age, Mass effect and Fallout.
a few miniature figures that represent you and your cohorts
Never been a big fan of those myself. I find miniatures in RPGs to often contribute to immersion breaking. Then again, I'm used to systems that don't encourage combat, due to their high lethality (like BRP or the system used by NeoGames), so combat is usually not a common occurrence when I play.
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 12:05pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | ..and then, of course, you can go the opposite direction than boardgames if you want some decent immersion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_action_role-playing_game
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 12:13pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dwwa (9 JUL 2011 11:05am)
Yeah, and some RPG games use the rules of those board games, right? Like Nevervinter Nights? Although I'm much more of a fan of RPG's like Mass Effect, Oblivion and Witcher. I remember Drakensang... Pick up plant- fail, then LOAD, then fail again... I have to load a game every time I fail something... Not very fun mind you... I hated all that luck segment... Maybe cool (and only way to do it in a board RPG) but not so fun in a computer game.
Gee, you're quite the perfectionist, aren't you? ...you mean you actually reloaded a save every time you failed to pick a plant? no wonder you find dice-roll games tedious.
Before I got into the proper concept of how a % chance of you succeeding increases as you level up the skill, I also disliked the system, but one eventually gets the idea. It used to be a large part of what the traditional RPG system was based on, and and I don't see it as "luck" but as % chance of success vs failiure.
(Well, most of the traditional CRPG ones, anyway, and I can live with such a system - if the outcome of your actions are based on a % of probablity based on your character's skill in the action you are taking).
If you think about it, the whole world works on probability theory, even in RL.
I will reload when I lose battles or large amounts of cash or significant inventory items, - but for a plant? Never!
It's easier just to upgrade, the skill, I think. On the other hand, I must admit that Drakensang (the first one, anyway, doesn't have a lot of grinding potential, so I suppose the game could force you to such extremes as to have to reload upon failiure, because you are short of skill points.
I seem to recall, however, that one of your companions comes with quite a high nature/alchemy skill? The elven ranger, is it?)
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 1:18pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | While I'm not adverse to dice rolls in the general, I don't understand the logic of it in the case of picking plants. Shouldn't there just be leaves you can pick and that's that? If you don't have the knowledge that's one thing, but I don't think I ever failed at picking a sprig of mint out of my garden out of sheer chance. :
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 1:24pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JKing (9 JUL 2011 1:18pm)
While I'm not adverse to dice rolls in the general, I don't understand the logic of it in the case of picking plants. Shouldn't there just be leaves you can pick and that's that? If you don't have the knowledge that's one thing, but I don't think I ever failed at picking a sprig of mint out of my garden out of sheer chance. :
Well, one could always argue that you need the knowledge to pick certain parts of the plant for it to be useful, or the knowledge to recognize the plant, or pick it in such as way as to best preserve it, or whatever.
I think part of the reason, is that in most of the games that make use of the system, you can sell the plants at vendors, and simply being able to pick all plants with no skill, would be a too easy loophole to make money out of picking and selling plants.
I agree that it seems a bit silly when translated into reality, (though, in real life, you get degrees/diplomas in horticulture too, and herbalists have to train first) but Drakensang certainly isn't the only game where you can fail at picking plants... :
I hear you on the % aspect, though, JKing. Maybe if you're inexperienced, you can mistake one plant for another, or accidentaly botch up the picking of it?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 1:37pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | ...also, keep in mind that it's not out of "sheer chance" that you failed to pick the plant, but a percentage possibility of sucess/failiure based on your skill level. :-*
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 9 JUL 2011 at 5:30pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @Fnord Never been a big fan of those myself. I find miniatures in RPGs to often contribute to immersion breaking. Then again, I'm used to systems that don't encourage combat, due to their high lethality (like BRP or the system used by NeoGames), so combat is usually not a common occurrence when I play.
Same here for that matter. Kind of the same issue I have with the 3rd person pov in computer games. Call of Cthulhu however is of the 'you are there' genre and why I mentioned it to highlight the variety of RPGs.
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| 10 JUL 2011 at 12:21pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | With plants that requires delicate handling in order for you to be able to harvest anything useful I can understand why there is a chance of failing (you might crush the brittle plant, making it impossible to store it, as the active ingredients decays too fast when it comes into contact with air). But most plants can just be picked, so what they should have done in Drakensang, to make things less frustrating and more logical would be to simply say that you need to have at least a certain level of plant lore to pick certain plants (to represent the knowledge needed to identify them, and know which parts are useful).
Call of cthulhu was an excellent example, I won't argue with that. There are actually people who play that game with miniatures though (something that I really can't understand why, miniatures are mainly useful in combat, to get a better overview, and CoC is not exactly a combat intense game).
Did you know that Call of Cthulhu: Dark corners of the earth is based on an adventure released by Chaosium, and not the actual books (the adventure in question was heavily based on a few of Lovecraft's stories though).
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| 19 JUL 2011 at 1:59pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (9 JUL 2011 12:12pm)
Originally Posted By dwwa (9 JUL 2011 11:05am)
Yeah, and some RPG games use the rules of those board games, right? Like Nevervinter Nights? Although I'm much more of a fan of RPG's like Mass Effect, Oblivion and Witcher. I remember Drakensang... Pick up plant- fail, then LOAD, then fail again... I have to load a game every time I fail something... Not very fun mind you... I hated all that luck segment... Maybe cool (and only way to do it in a board RPG) but not so fun in a computer game.
Gee, you're quite the perfectionist, aren't you? ...you mean you actually reloaded a save every time you failed to pick a plant? no wonder you find dice-roll games tedious.
Before I got into the proper concept of how a % chance of you succeeding increases as you level up the skill, I also disliked the system, but one eventually gets the idea. It used to be a large part of what the traditional RPG system was based on, and and I don't see it as "luck" but as % chance of success vs failiure.
(Well, most of the traditional CRPG ones, anyway, and I can live with such a system - if the outcome of your actions are based on a % of probablity based on your character's skill in the action you are taking).
If you think about it, the whole world works on probability theory, even in RL.
I will reload when I lose battles or large amounts of cash or significant inventory items, - but for a plant? Never!
It's easier just to upgrade, the skill, I think. On the other hand, I must admit that Drakensang (the first one, anyway, doesn't have a lot of grinding potential, so I suppose the game could force you to such extremes as to have to reload upon failiure, because you are short of skill points.
I seem to recall, however, that one of your companions comes with quite a high nature/alchemy skill? (The elven ranger, is it?)
Oh, I always reloaded, every single plant, lock pick, pocket pick, corpse skinning, you name it.... Get's a little better later, but you understand that reloading 4-5 times (even 8 at times) to pick a single mushroom which is quite common btw is not very entertaining. It just isn't for me. I can't resist not to reload, I just can't. It's the same with pro evolution soccer (dunno if you've heard of it)... If I don't score at leas 2-3 goals, let alone LOSE, I reload the match... Ah, quick save games... They'll be the death of me....
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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