| 6 APR 2011 at 3:49pm |
Slip SpaceIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 8
Joined: 9 APR 2010
Status : Online | The Rhem games are brilliant. Forget Myst clones bring on some Rhem clones.
As to difficulty, hard to easy: 2, 3, 1, 4
In our line of work, you never know what you are until you become it.
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| 6 APR 2011 at 7:29pm |
GreyFussPrivate Detective
Posts : 767
Joined: 4 DEC 2006
Status : Offline | Although all the Rhem games are of the "Very Challenging" nature if I was to rate them against one another they would be in the order of release with the original the hardest for me. Rhem one seemed to have more levels to it. Like a 3D maze you could see a level but didn't know how to get to it. Rhem 4 seemed to be the most "flat" without the ups and downs.
Like Colpet I love the Rhem world and Hope that Knut never finishes making these games.
"Don't Hate Me Because I Am Beautiful...There Are Many Other Reasons"
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| 6 APR 2011 at 7:32pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | The Rhem games are a tremendous gift to Myst-like game lovers. They skirt the edge of the line between the Myst games that do have a story that adds meaning to the game (and the puzzles) and pure puzzle games (eg. Safecracker). And yet in Rhem games, the storyline is there if one chooses to see it and use it.
By use it, I mean that, whereas truly story-based games (eg. Gabriel Knight) provide a fleshed-out story that requires little imagination, the Myst games and, especially, the Rhem games require you to use imagination to embellish the storyline. For instance, I am able to imagine myself lost or trapped in these worlds or places and identify with a character that has to solve the puzzles to get away from them.
The Rhem games are ingeniously constructed. It's difficult enough to provide challenging and original puzzles in the typical adventure game. It's a whole other story to provide the sort of puzzling that you face in Rhem. It is nothing like you'll find in any other game and if you look on each Rhem game as the absolute Myst-like puzzling treasure that it is, then your experiences with these games will be ones that you will never forget.
As an extreme example of how differently the Rhem games can affect different players, I just love the following exchange (from the Top Ten Myst-like Games thread)- God bless you Andromus. (though I think there is a story as mentioned above):
semih: Rhem 2 was the worst game I had ever seen.After playing it for a few minutes I uninstalled it. The game has no story.There is no reaon to solve a puzzle. Also it is very cold.The game has no soul.
Andromus: No story? Puzzles included for no reason, simply there for the sake of having puzzles to work through? Sounds great to me!
As far as order of difficulty goes, I would say Rhem 1->Rhem 2-> Rhem 3 (hmm...). Haven't played Rhem 4 yet; I am saving it for a special occasion (I'm so afraid that it might be my last Rhem experience if Knut doesn't come up with a 5th). I can see why people might put Rhem 2 before Rhem 1, but, for me, I think it has to do with the fact that Rhem 1 was a learning process for these types of games and once I figured out the process, the other games seemed easier (ie. easier, not easy). Another reason why people's order of difficulty might vary could be due to the fact that each Rhem game seems to have a different approach to the puzzling. Rhem 1 is about pipes- if pipes is your thing, it might seem easier...
I have such warm memories of playing Rhem 1 for the first time. To show how absorbed I got in it, here is a px from my notebook. There's no real spoiler here unless you are in the middle of solving this puzzle and have a photographic memory. Even I would have to go back to the puzzle and work with it a bit to even remember everything I did here. If you are afraid that there's a spoiler element there, just don't peer at it too much.
[img]http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2661/rhemfinal.jpg[/img]
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 6 APR 2011 at 7:52pm |
GreyFussPrivate Detective
Posts : 767
Joined: 4 DEC 2006
Status : Offline | Thats funny SirDave, this was my first thoughts about Rhem when it was first released in 2002...
semih: Rhem 2 was the worst game I had ever seen.After playing it for a few minutes I uninstalled it. The game has no story.There is no reaon to solve a puzzle. Also it is very cold.The game has no soul.
And this is what I thought in 2008 when I tried it again after becoming a more seasoned player...
Andromus: No story? Puzzles included for no reason, simply there for the sake of having puzzles to work through? Sounds great to me!
You will also be glad to know that through a few traded emails with Knut after Rhem 4's release that I learned that there will indeed be a Rhem 5 and I believe he is working on it now.
"Don't Hate Me Because I Am Beautiful...There Are Many Other Reasons"
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| 6 APR 2011 at 8:18pm |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | I love the picture, SirDave! Games like Rhem allow me to bring out my coloring pencils and release the 'artiste' in me. As I look at my notes and see all my prismacolors on the desk, I get a sense of the complexity of the puzzles, since I use color coding (blue/inventory item, green/document, purple/video or auditory clues, etc) as well as mapping and drawing.
Awesome news about Rhem 5, Greyfuss! Might be time too dust off Rhem 4, SirDave .
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 6 APR 2011 at 11:22pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Ah, yes, I recall that exchange. Though I do enjoy games with detailed stories also. But neither do I require one to enjoy a game either. SirDave makes a good point, though, about filling in one's own story. I often find the most immersion in this sort of the game, imprinting a certain amount of myself into the character.
Admittedly my attempts to play Rhem 1 have been less than successful, much to my chagrin. One of these days, though, I'll break through, much like I did with Riven. Looks like I need to take much better notes, for starters. And make a map. And most importantly, clear my schedule for the next [s]week [/s][s]month [/s]year.
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| 8 APR 2011 at 2:00am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | One day, Caroline accidentally boarded the wrong train and ended up at a deserted station where there was no kiosk and no one to buy a return ticket from. Just as she had abandoned the search for the ladies' room she noticed that the bloody train had departed without her.
Caroline wandered the streets up stairs and down stairs, peeping around corners hoping, praying to see another human being she could speak to.
Finally, completely lost, and having discovered many different piping/valve stations and control boxes that appeared to do absolutely nothing, especially they did not contain an emergency services phone.... Caroline decided to retrace her steps.
This is when she fully realised the enormity of the task as every staircase looked identical to the last and every wall the same as the previous walls.
After several days without food and water (she had left her chocolate behind on the train) she wandered deliriously before falling into unconsciousness on yet another anonymous staircase. And there her bleached bones were discovered many years later by another careless traveller who couldn't find his way out of the devilish maze called RHEM
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| 8 APR 2011 at 3:26am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | All sounds very grim. Poor bugger, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes. Curious though how he found some bones the same way I did. Small world, I guess. Now, about that exit...did anyone see where I came in exactly? Anybody? Um, hello...? *cue sound of wind and a lone tumbleweed rollling by*
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| 9 APR 2011 at 6:02am |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | I've just finished the 3rd, and am playing the 4th one now. One thing I'm finding is that they seem to be easier than the first 2.
I don't believe I would agree with you regarding Rhem 3, but I certainly would regarding Rhem 4. I'd say that 4 is the easiest of the series, by enough of a margin to almost make it a matter of objective fact and not just opinion. Beyond that, I'd have a very hard time putting the others in order of difficulty. Some of the challenge of Rhem 1 was probably due to it being the first, and therefore the least anticipated in its approach to puzzle structure. On the other hand, I went back and replayed Rhem 1 years later (well after Rhem 3 had been released), and even though I still remembered the solutions to much of it, it still gave me fits.
Part of me is tempted to give Rhem 2 the edge in difficulty, but I suspect that's more my own bias, due to the fact that it is my overall favorite -- not just for the puzzles but for the entire experience. Part of that was (vague spoilers ahead) the way in which the two parts of the game are laid out. By the time I felt that I had almost finished the first challenge, the caverns were beginning to have that "played out" feeling -- you know the one that you get when you've done almost everything there is to do in an adventure game? I was expecting the second challenge to be more of a denouement than anything, and I was already starting to feel disappointed that I had rushed through it so quickly. Then the star key was completed, I went down the ladder, finished the equations, opened the door, and ... holy cow. That immense cavern, with doors and doors and doors. And still the lion's share of the puzzles left to discover. Oh, and of course, the inhabitant. We fans all agree that the utter lack of plot doesn't detract from our enjoyment of the game at all, and it's true, but still I have to admit that the tiny thread of plot that Rhem 2 did have was really nicely done. The fact that you have to infer what the inhabitant is saying provides a little extra puzzle of its own, like a little dinner mint at the end of a meal.
Do other Rhem fans feel differently? I have to admit that I've sort of unconsciously assumed that nearly every Rhem fan would agree that Rhem 2 was the best, but of course it's silly to assume that. What do the rest of you think?
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| 9 APR 2011 at 2:16pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 822
Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | I need to give the Rhem games another shot. I had gotten to the preliminary mapping/diagraming stage in 1 before getting distracted by some other games, and never picked it up again. Have 2 installed as well but only took a cursory look.. My feeling has been these are games I want to like more than actually like, and I need to change that.
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| 10 APR 2011 at 11:30pm |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | (Warning: spoilers ahead -- not in the sense of discussing solutions to puzzles, but in the sense of describing specific puzzles.)
Originally Posted By GreyFuss (6 APR 2011 7:28pm)
Rhem one seemed to have more levels to it. Like a 3D maze you could see a level but didn't know how to get to it. Rhem 4 seemed to be the most "flat" without the ups and downs.
That's an interesting visual image, and one I'm inclined to agree with. I mean, the problem isn't really that Rhem 4 has very little vertical movement; there's a metaphorical flatness to the game as well.
Since reading GreyFuss's comment, I've been trying to nail down in my own mind what makes Rhem 4 feel flatter than the previous three. I think the central problem is that there just isn't as much tangledness. Rhem games aren't just a collection of puzzles that one locates and then solves. There are those as well, of course, but some large subset of puzzles will turn out to be connected to one another.
Figured out how to open a door? Great! But don't be surprised if fifteen minutes later you're desperately trying to figure out how to close that damn door again, only with you on the other side of it, because there's something you need on that side. This experience is so common, it's practically a hallmark of the Rhem games. But (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that never happened once in all of Rhem 4. I'm guessing that Knut Müller felt the door thing was getting too predictable, which is why he dropped it so completely. But there should have been something introduced in its place.
(And though I'm not complaining about the absence of door puzzles per se, I confess that I wasted a lot of time trying to get a glimpse of the backside of that door to the bell-ringing complex. After all you couldn't close the door from the inside, but the complex was only surrounded by a chain-link fence. So I figured there had to be some place to stand where I could see if anything was written there. The square-tooth line of the door convinced me that it was related to the lock with the eight black-and-white strips, since they also had a square-tooth separator down the middle. Sigh....)
Another salient feature of the Rhem games is that of gaining access to a new area only to cut off access to something else. You rarely just solve something and forget about it, like so many uninspired puzzle-fests. In Rhem you're constantly going back to earlier, solved areas in order to find paths to new areas. (Or alternate paths to old areas, allowing you to change some critical point of your current path so it leads to a new area. That's a perfect example of "tangledness".) An example from Rhem 1 would of course be the rotating tower, one of the first puzzles you meet, and constantly have to come back to. Rhem 2 had it in spades, of course, with so many of the trapdoors, elevators and rotating rooms having dual purpose. And that four-story nightmare in Rhem 3, with the two hinged ladders-slash-bridges? Now that was tangled! But it seems to me that Rhem 4 had very little of that. There was the little wooden rotating platform, and parts of Meneandes's place. Nothing else comes to mind, though. When I first discovered the circular tram, I was sure it was going to be a puzzle like that. But it turned out to be completely straightforward, once I had actually gained access to it.
Sometimes even when Rhem does give you a puzzle isolated from the rest of the game, tangledness is still a hallmark of the problem. A great example of this is in Rhem 3, at the top floor of the mezzanine building, with the gates and the red buttons (where opening a gate also took away the red button attached to the gate). I don't know about you, but retrieving that green crystal gave me quite a headache. Or how about the glass-brick maze in Rhem 2? The only time you're faced with anything vaguely resembling a traditional maze in the Rhem games, but you're given a complete map right at the entrance. And you still can't figure out how to get to the room in the corner! Only in Rhem.
There is a particular flavor of enjoyment that comes when you're facing a puzzle for which you have all the information necessary to solve it but you just can't see how to apply it -- and then suddenly you realize what you've been missing and the answer is obvious. You know what I mean? I had that in Rhem 1 facing the metal door with the red symbols, next to the simulation control room. Or in Rhem 3 when I solved the AAA puzzle. I can think of only one point in Rhem 4 (namely the candle puzzle) where I didn't know how to solve a puzzle the moment I had all the relevant data, if not sooner. Granted, this one is a highly subjective measurement and it may not be a fair one to apply. But it certainly feels consistent with the overall sensation that Rhem 4 just didn't quite rise up to the same level of complexity as all the previous ones.
Like Colpet I love the Rhem world and Hope that Knut never finishes making these games.
Hear hear. Despite my complaints, Rhem 4 only suffers in comparison with its own predecessors. It's still a great game, and I can't wait to see what Rhem 5 will have in store.
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| 11 APR 2011 at 1:49am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Pretty interesting topic. I've tried several of the Rhem games and it wasn't until Rhem 4 that I played the demo and found myself liking it. So much so that I ended up picking it up at a local store.
The funny thing is that I thought that perhaps I had missed out by not playing the previous 3 after having enjoyed the Rhem 4 demo. From the looks of this thread it looks like I still wouldn't like the first 3.
We've all got different tastes, and I can solidly put myself in the camp of those who don't like puzzles that are so spread out that you have to bounce from one end of the map to the next just to see the effect of turning a knob 1/4 way. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but its the impression I get when reading through these Rhem threads.
Maybe Rhem 4 is the same way, but the demo was structured in a way that allowed you to solve everything within in a tight area before moving on to the next one. I dunno. What I do like is that the DVD came with a PC and Mac version which means this will be my first game played on a Mac.
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| 11 APR 2011 at 12:11pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (11 APR 2011 1:49am)
...puzzles that are so spread out that you have to bounce from one end of the map to the next just to see the effect of turning a knob 1/4 way. Maybe that's an exaggeration...
Not much of one, Ivinia. I looked at Dave's map and said "Yep. That's Rhem."
I have an original Rhem box of scribblin's and scratchin's from the first Rhem that look as, uh, confusing and ridiculous as SirDave's, but SirDave is a great conceptual artist. I like the different colors and how he talks to himself: "Pipe values. 100%!!" You rock, Dave.
I'm proud to say I finished the first Rhem - playing it as my only game - in about seven months. I avoided walkthroughs until I got really stuck on one side of the game world and Just. Could. Not. Go back. Another. Time. To Check. Argh!
Rhem is a game which has no dead-ends. I knew that, so I pushed myself into a frenzy sometimes to make sense of it. But, after perserving, I was able to raise my abilities of reason and concept to those of a Brainiac.
MENSA accepted me into their hearts. I was finally smart.
That game nearly killed me, Ivinia. Haven't had the strength to start Rhem 2, 3, or 4 yet, but when I feel a masochistic episode coming on... I'll crank up Rhem 2.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 14 APR 2011 at 4:36am |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (11 APR 2011 1:49am)
We've all got different tastes, and I can solidly put myself in the camp of those who don't like puzzles that are so spread out that you have to bounce from one end of the map to the next just to see the effect of turning a knob 1/4 way. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but its the impression I get when reading through these Rhem threads.
I dont' feel that Rhem is like that, although others may disagree with me. Don't get me wrong; you frequently do wind up walking around a great deal in Rhem games, but it's actually pretty rare that you have to do a lot of walking in order to get feedback on a puzzle. You can usually tell how you're doing at the site of the puzzle itself.
In fact, I would say that the Rhem series is actually pretty good at giving you unambiguous feedback. The game is full of combination locks, each with their own peculiar markings that look nothing like the one before it ... but throughout all four games, a red light and a buzz always means failure, and a green light and a ding always means success.
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| 14 APR 2011 at 5:09am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By breadbox (14 APR 2011 4:36am)
Originally Posted By Ivinia (11 APR 2011 1:49am)
We've all got different tastes, and I can solidly put myself in the camp of those who don't like puzzles that are so spread out that you have to bounce from one end of the map to the next just to see the effect of turning a knob 1/4 way. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but its the impression I get when reading through these Rhem threads.
I dont' feel that Rhem is like that, although others may disagree with me. Don't get me wrong; you frequently do wind up walking around a great deal in Rhem games, but it's actually pretty rare that you have to do a lot of walking in order to get feedback on a puzzle. You can usually tell how you're doing at the site of the puzzle itself.
I agree. I know what Ivinia is talking about- it was even in my old love- Doom! But I didn't get that feeling from Rhem- once I solved a given puzzle or code, I pretty much knew which door was opened, which bridge was raised or which porthole was now passable.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 APR 2011 at 5:39am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | once I solved a given puzzle or code, I pretty much knew which door was opened, which bridge was raised or which porthole was now passable.
Dammit.... I knew must be more to this game that looking for the exit door.... [smiley=hair_pull.gif]
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| 17 APR 2011 at 11:02am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | Based on some good reviews I got the trilogy of Rhem games and have been playing Rhem 1 for the past few days. The puzzles are really great and I don't mind the lack of story. I don't find them that tricky at all - there's the old 'behind the door' puzzle used a couple of times, some complicated pipe tracking and symbol match-up. Myst often didn't have that kind of logic, it was more intuitive. This is more a game for engineers
It does however give me a headache after a while of playing because there is so much movement and disorientation. The maze navigating is by far the hardest part of the game, and most irritating. It doesn't help that my computer plays it in a small window because my monitor doesn't go as low as 640x480. I'm going to be happy moving on to Rhem 2 which has a higher resolution. It does seem odd that no one has got the idea from RealMyst to make a game like this in real-time. Maybe in future Rhem instalments?
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| 18 APR 2011 at 1:27am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Well I would happily buy and play all the RHEM games if they were playable online with buddies. That way I could simply tag along with someone who's better at map drawing than me.
After falling in love with Uru online, I'm afraid I'm totally converted to the fun of companionship while gaming. But for RHEM.... it'd be my only chance of getting out alive, not to mention actually seeing the entire game.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 3:11am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (18 APR 2011 1:27am)
Well I would happily buy and play all the RHEM games if they were playable online with buddies. That way I could simply tag along with someone who's better at map drawing than me.
After falling in love with Uru online, I'm afraid I'm totally converted to the fun of companionship while gaming. But for RHEM.... it'd be my only chance of getting out alive, not to mention actually seeing the entire game.
I'm too competitive. If I was in Rhem with buddies and found out how to raise a bridge on my own, I'd tell them to check out something-or-other over there, run across the bridge and then lower it right behind me.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 18 APR 2011 at 3:36am |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (18 APR 2011 1:27am)
Well I would happily buy and play all the RHEM games if they were playable online with buddies. That way I could simply tag along with someone who's better at map drawing than me.
I went even farther -- I played the Rhem games with a friend with an extremely good sense of direction. I don't think we drew a single map throughout, if you can believe that. Me, I can get turned around in my own bedroom, but he just always remembered how to get from A to B.
(Quite the contrast from playing text adventures, where we both found map-drawing completely necessary.)
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