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| 3 APR 2011 at 8:00pm | |
TravellerGuild Master  Posts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | WARNING! HUGE SPOILERS! Only read if you're never going to play it, or have already completed it. What, so the core of the DA2 'story' is now suddenly that the mages are the bad guys? OMG, then I'd rather take the Darkspawn anythime.. how utterly, utterly stupid, especially from the POV of a person who, like myself, chose to play as a mage. I was just finished with Merril's quest, and I was going to come and say how silly it was that although we had just killed Merrils entire's clan, she was giggling and joking all the way back from the Dalish camp. Not even the slightest bit sad that her entire clan had just been sacrificed for her stupidity. Then I saw that all my other quests were done, with only "the Last Straw" left, and I thought I'd quickly do that quest as well before coming here to JA to remark on how unfitting some of the character's responses are relative to the circumstances they find themselves in. Well, surprise, surprise - I thought there's still half a game at least left, and here it is suddenly the end of the game! How utterly, utterly utterly ridiculous what Anders had done. How that could in any way save the mages rather than condemn them all to death, I can still not understand. I personally gutted the bastard (in spite of the fact that the murderous crazy traitor had been my so-called lover (the latter just added insult to injury)), as soon as the game gave me the opportunity to. I mean, wouldn't it have made infinitely more sense from his POV rather to have blown up the Templars rather than the Chantry, for pete's sake? How could killing the one person in power who was at least sympathetic to his cause in any infinitesimal way have helped the mages? The piece that they tack on at the end that all the mages throughout the land rebelled, simply just didn't make sense, since I chose in the end to side with Meredith (because if you side with the mages, they all turn into demons and you have to kill them anyway). How would what Anders had done be beneficial to anybody? It would simply make people hate mages even more and cause even more bloodshed. Surely in a story that made any sense, the templars and the chantry and the populace would now even clamp down on the mages even harder, and kill every darn mage they could find in the entire land. This game had the most incoherent and nonsensical and disappointing story of any game that I had ever bothered to play to the end. [smiley=hair_pull.gif] You achieve absolutely nothing in the end - not only do you not get to save the world, or the Templars, or the Mages -you don't even get to save Kirkwall. ..and everywhere in the game is just bloodshed, death and destruction - there is not one single single single happy ending to a single one of the more major quests. (k, I lie- you get to save Carver - so big deal) The only ones that end well, are a few forgettable minor quests if you choose to give a character a lot of your cash out of your inventory. Even your sister and your mother gets gutted. Ah - ok one little ray of light- I managed to save Carver - yay! - like he was my favorite person to start with, and like I really cared what the heck happened to him... :-/ Besides that it was disappointing, the game also felt disappointingly short to me - it had no "meat" to it, and the only likeable characters were Varric and to some extent Eveline. Ugh, I'd better just forget about this rubbish game and move on. On the other hand, I suppose I need some closure. > That's something else the darn ending doesn't give you.. [size=14]NOT TO MENTION..!!!...!!! when I first read about there being a sequel made, there was this whole story about Morrigan's child with Alistair becoming the..- I don't know, something significant, and so forth. What suddenly happened to this? It just went POOF!! She isn't even mentioned in this so-called sequel... * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 3 APR 2011 at 9:55pm | |
FnordSchattenjger  Posts : 2752 Joined: 15 SEP 2008 Location: SE, Stockholm Status : Online | What bugged me the most about the ending was how the most sensible person, the leader of the mages, suddenly turned to blood magic (something which he knew was dangerous, and even why it was dangerous), and thus doomed all the mages. I can see why the templars might have been a problem, after all, the artifact was in the hands of their leader (something that was hinted at several times), but the grand magician? By the way, you did not have to kill all the elves. Depending on what you said to them, they would either attack you or let you go.
Current Let's Play: Crusader: No Remorse |
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| 3 APR 2011 at 10:56pm | |
markornikovJourneyman .jpg) Posts : 1303 Joined: 28 OCT 2011 Location: BE, Antwerp Status : Offline | aww, that sucks :-/ especially when you've bought it as a pre-order and wasted more time waiting for it to be released than you actually have played the game
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| 4 APR 2011 at 11:20am | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (3 APR 2011 9:55pm) Yes, the game really seems to have turned all of the mages into bad guys. It really made me feel rather weird since I myself was a mage. What made things even worse for me is that the game had let me romance Anders as the only alternative to a vengeful drunk. (Being Fenris, since I never got Sebastian.) What kind of sick dev makes your lover act in a way that goes against every fibre in your being, so that you see no other way out than to execute him -and then they have you do it with a knife in the back, and you have to watch as he keels over and his life ebbs away into the dirt? Ugh. :'( I don't play games for them to make me feel depressed, I want to feel good at the end of a game, not terrible... By the way, you did not have to kill all the elves. Depending on what you said to them, they would either attack you or let you go. Yes, sadly I only saw on the internet after replaying that battle twice (actually 3 times since I'd hit a bug with it the first time around), that if you chose "I take responsibilty" you don't have to. Boo. Posted by: markornikov Posted on: Yesterday at 6:55pm aww, that sucks Thanks for commiserating, Markonikov. :-/ I hope this thread hasn't spoilt anything for you. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 4 APR 2011 at 2:05pm | |
markornikovJourneymanPosts : 1303 Joined: 28 OCT 2011 Location: BE, Antwerp Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (4 APR 2011 11:20am) Ofcourse not... The wise RPG-guru Traveller has spoken: this game shall be banished to the halls of shame. I will obey, i shall never play DA2 Seriously, every game you have recommended is a game i liked a lot. So i'll take your advice and avoid this one.
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| 4 APR 2011 at 3:20pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Well, hey, I don't want to carry a responsibility like that, but not to deprive yourself, you could always wait for the bargain bin, or perhaps for an edition that contains a lot of the DLC some of which is already there but I sense which will also be forthcoming. I have an idea that the game will be a better experience if you have all the DLC they are obvioulsy trying to strong-arm people into getting by leaving so many questions unanswered. The game ends with a bit of a cliff hanger. ) It will probably also be better for non-mages who did not have Anders as a romance interest, you know? * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 6 APR 2011 at 8:18pm | |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 347 Joined: 23 SEP 2006 Location: DK Status : Offline | I find it, interesting, though, that the story and the ending to the story actually stirred so many emotions in you, Traveller. If or when a games is able to do this, then the writers (and other devs.) must have done something -ahem- correctly. If indeed they wanted to bring up precisely those emotions you and others have been feeling and having. As for the story in the game, from the start, and by that I mean, when DA2 was announced, David Gaider, Lead Writer, told us there would be 'no saving the world, no secret organisation, no ancient evil'. Mike Laidlaw, Lead Designer, said that in the endgame 'we would be making a choice' and David Gaider has (via Laidlaw) told us that they wanted to 'kick over the sandcastle'. Meaning, of course, to throw the player and the gamer out of their sense of security - and making a game which tells a more personal story about a man or woman rising to power, but in so doing, his or her life becomes a tragedy almost since he or she needs to deal with losses and mourning. If you've played witch hunt, Morrigan is saying to you 'a change is coming' and 'people fear change' and 'it will set them free'. DA2 probably deals with this change, higlighting the conflict between the mages and the templars. As for the grand magician (grand cleric?) maybe if you look really, really careful there are signs that maybe he has been dealing in blood magic all along - you have to read between the lines, though, to see this. As for Anders doing what he's doing (and apparently always doing so), I sort of feel that this is somewhat logical. If you've played Awakenings, you know how much Anders really doesn't like the Chantry, and the Templars. Now some more years have gone...and people change.. Anders, as I see it, is looking for a way to help the mages out. And his mind, what he's doing is the best thing for the mages. I agree, though, that what Anders did might not have been the most rational thing to do, but then again, Anders have striked me as a very rational person. And remember that Anders also has Justice (the spirit or is Justice really something else?) in him. And maybe Justice just gave him a little -ahem - push? I also agree that what Anders did probably won't win over common people (or others) to the cause of the mages. This is the one extreme, the other is Merril, I think, who's going all batty, it seems, wanting to kill all mages, just by suspicion that a person is a mage. [And sadly - this is exactly how it is in times of conflict, and strong and stark opinions. The middle ground goes out the window and only the extremes are left - sadly - and even if you try to say that not all mages or all templars are bad, you quickly get lumped in with one crowd or the other. The mage's rebelled probably because they wanted to be free, no longer being under the Chantry's amnd the Templar's control. Normally they, the mages, are locked in their Circle towers, and they need permission to go outside (playing Witch Hunt told me this as well). You have to remember that to everybody else, magic is seen as frightenining and scary, and that children are taken to the Circle's towers to prevent them from unleashing their magic. The Templars, and the Chantry obviously have another take on this, saying that it's for their own good, so that they're able to learn how to control their powers. To the mages, and their parents from whom the mages have been taken, when they were only children, not so much. Finally, remember that Varric is telling the story....and he's a very unreliable narrator. I'm suggesting that maybe Varric is exagerating certain parts of the story, spinning the story a certian way, leaving out some elements, while highlighting others, shrouding others in mystery - maybe to protect his companion, his friend, Hawke i.e. you (the player). And is this story he's telling Cassandra who has come looking for Hawke, because the world has now been turned on its head, upside down, and topsey-turvyed in a big way. Nothing is going the be same - a change is indeed coming. And this is probably the change, Morrigan talked about in Witch Hunt. And thus this change is probably what has prompted the seeker of the Chantry, Cassandra, to look for Hawke, thus the game beginning with the ending, having Hawke telling the story about how it all came to be. Finally, try looking at the game this way: If you removed the combat from the game, wouldn't it be an adventure game? |
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| 6 APR 2011 at 8:57pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Karsten (6 APR 2011 8:18pm) I'm guessing you mean Meredith instead of Merril there. Merril is a mage herself, and definitely on the side of the mages. I disagree with you about the head mage always having practiced blood magic - he even said so himself before he turned to it at the end; He said:" ..and ironically I have never used blood magic before..." but he says that Meredith backed him into a corner. I suppose it is true that Meredith in her madness did want to kill all the mages, but I don't know why all the Templars are such weaklings that no one can stand up to her. ..and guess what - I did never rise to power. I actually paused the game and looked up on the internet what the outcome would be if you chose the mages or the templars, before making that decision:- Several sources said that if you chose the mages, the head mage would turn to blood magic anyway, forcing you to kill them; so the only difference would be that if you chose the Templars, they would crown you as next viscount, but if you chose the mages, you'd have to leave. So I chose the templars because it seemed to give the best outcome of the two; - but in the end, guess what - no viscount for me - they didn't crown me; so it actually made no difference at all who I chose. I still had to battle both sides anyway, plus then slink away afterwards. I'm guessing this is because I was a mage myself, so the game just assumed I'd choose the mages, or it would be too inconsistent with the story if a mage became the next viscount. In any case, the point is that your "choice" seems pointless - because the outcome is virtually the same. (Seeing that any free mage was seen as an apostate in DA 2 (which wasn't quite so bad in DA), it always felt wierd to me that the authorities dealt with me quite calmly and didn't want to immediately lock me up in the tower - yet they did this with all the other mages around me. I mean, what made me so special and exempt from this? They shouldn't have let the player choose a mage class then, seeing that it simply doesn't fit in with the story; except that the most fun combat lies with magic. A very large part of the fun of DA was for me how you could team mages together to do combo spell effects and so on. My biggest problem is that there is a lack of closure at the end. I could perhaps have been a bit more tolerant of this fact, if they had from the start called this Dragon Age 2 Part 1, and charged slightly less for it - especially seeing that one has to cough up for the DLC anyway. But even if this is just the first instalment in a series about Hawke, and they'd answer the question of what happened to Hawke and co. in subsequent instalments; - do you really like to be left dangling in the air like this until they manage to grind out the next half-baked instalment? Truly and honestly? Even Risen, about which many people complained about the abrupt ending at least had a more satisfying ending than this, because at least you were not required to kill your own people in the end. :'( All I can say is that much as I adored DA, for me DA2 was an experiment that did not work. I felt good during and at the end of DA, it was fun playing it, and it made you feel good at the end. It was like they'd taken all the fun elements out of DA2. Looting became like an onerous task instead of fun, combat became something you just want to get over and done with, instead of the interesting challenges and gameplay you faced in DA's combat, and quests were unsatisfying and often confusing due to them forcing the player to rely on the quest marker instead of figuring some stuff out for himself. Heck, you couldn't even upgrade your party members' armor from loot. Why this frustrating decision, I wonder? * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 6 APR 2011 at 9:00pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Karsten (6 APR 2011 8:18pm) Nope. I don't remember any puzzles of any sort. If they'd removed the quest marker, and instead rather told the player what he had to go and look for, it might perhaps be a bit closer to one, but not the way they did it. All you had to do was look on the map for the next quest marker, and run towards it. Adventure games require the player to figure things out for themselves. Oh, and about the mages revolting - well, I'm not saying that they shouldn't, of course; I'm just saying that since even Orsino had turned to blood magic, and after what Anders had done, surely people would view mages as even more dangerous, and therefore for the mages to "escape from the circle" would have been harder, and would probably force the mages to cause more bloodshed, because people would be more violently opposed to them "getting away' and causing harm to the populace, since Anders (a mage) has shown that he has no scruples and would stoop incredibly low to further his own cause. ..and like you said - people tend to lump people together in groups. So a bunch of "bad" mages will surely end up making all mages look bad. It's a bit like the terrorism debate we have in the real world. Do you truly think that terrorists do their own cause any good? Have the deeds of terrorists endeared them to us? No, it is the Ghandi's and the Martin Luther Kings that have won great victories, rather than those that have sought freedom via violent means. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 7 APR 2011 at 4:57pm | |
KarstenSorcerer ApprenticePosts : 347 Joined: 23 SEP 2006 Location: DK Status : Offline | I've read the Bioware forums intensively and there seems to be a divide here, some love the game, others hate the game. Almost everyone agrees that the game was (way too) rushed and which is probably somewhere between beta-stage and the full release. The game, DA2, would probably have been better if if it had another 3-4 months of development time. As for the story, it seems that Bioware wanted to Chantry gone - for story reasons, in Thedas, Ferelden and in Kirkwall. And 'the rise to power' signature for this game can perhaps be interpreted in several ways? What does 'rise to power' even mean? Have you risen to power when you have gotten your own house, have you risen to power when you have overthrown the 'establisment' or have you risen to power when you have defeated all? The ending of the game seems to be so that Hawke always will be fleeing Kirkwall after the game's ending. This is probably a shoutout, a hommage, to the ending of the first fallout game in which the same happens - the hero vanishes. I'm sure that the game design looked great; however the implementation (how the things were made) was probably done poorly. |
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| 7 APR 2011 at 5:23pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | I'm still sticking to my guns, though, that it feels pretty awkward to play a mage in this game. It was a hugely fun class to play in DA, so it was a no-brainer for me to choose to play as a mage, since the had cut the warrior wings so drastically in DA2. I played a dalish elf warrior in DA, but i also completed a large part of a second playthorugh as a mage. Being a warrior was onlt bearable due to me able to spec as a dualwielder, which was not an option in DA2. The rogue specs had been pretty much contracted as well from the rogue that you had in DA, so playing a rogue in DA2 isn't really an attractive option either. ...so even though the mage specs are also rather less, it remains gameplay wise the best choice... - only for you to find out that storywise being a mage feels like being a fish out of water. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 20 APR 2011 at 10:48pm | |
XerNosamSorcerer Apprentice Posts : 339 Joined: 3 SEP 2007 Location: US, California Status : Offline | For me, there wasn't much occurred in Dragon Age 2 that really felt like it mattered. Somehow it seems like the 'meaningful' events that take place in DA2 could be explained in a 3 or 4 part Codex entry in Dragon Age 3. The Hero Of Kirkwall did a lot of menial tasks for folks. The Hero saved a few and killed a bunch. The Hero 'united' a few groups of folks, then contributed to both sides as they slaughtered each other. Then, the Hero disappears. That's a slight oversimplification, but looking back in summary, that's pretty much how I saw it go down. I came out of this not really caring for or trusting mages in the DA universe. No matter how 'cool' or honorable the mage is, it seems that if the circumstances require it, they'll turn to blood magic. I do understand the need to monitor mage activity, as if one truly looks at things the way they are, I'd be definitely FOR monitoring and controlling mage activity as their power and capabilities are terrifying. But, with DA2, the game itself seems as though things would have went to beans whether the Hero was there or not - with the exception of the 'threat' of the Qunari. THAT is something I felt I accomplished as The Hero... Playing: Skyrim: Dragonborn/Dawnguard; Torchlight 2; To The Moon; Far Cry 3 Finished: HomeFront; Far Cry 3; Dishonored Always Playing: Half Life 2 Looking Forward To: BioShock: Infinite Reading: BioShock: Rapture; SW: Revan |
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| 21 APR 2011 at 2:37pm | |
CrisGerSchattenjger Posts : 2539 Joined: 28 APR 2007 Location: US Status : Offline | I agree with you totally Traveler, i am very sad that such a fine game company (for the most part) would be so perverted in what they did to a promising title. I was not wild about some of the first title in this series but this was just a joke..... nothing redeeming and a sad mis use of their resources and energy that could have gone into Jade Empire 2 or some other worthy project. There is a strange air blowing in the game world and some other creative universes too...writers are killing their own children, making huge genre shifts and weird and evil alterations and trying to swim against the way stories beg to go... they seem determined to deny us happy endings and instead want to drag us into their own dark despair. Well i deny THEM..and cast them out. As soon as I detect this kind of perversion going on, i stop playing or watching and warn others away and judge the writers no matter how good, as David was in past work and titles, as shameful and shallow and a sham. I basically ban them from my world..and with pleasure for the viewer and player is the final arbiter and we have that total inalienable right which is our final salvation. Shame on you David and Bioware. I hope for better to come and please STOP trying to sell us add ons. that sucks. Give us the whole Monty or nothing. Ok, moving along to better things. Admin 3D Worlds and Game Developers http://3dworldandgamedevelopers.blogspot.com |
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| 4 MAY 2011 at 2:48pm | |
AkhillesPrivate Detective  Posts : 581 Joined: 21 JUL 2003 Location: US Status : Offline | This game was SO disjointed... they put it together in a short time but it looks like a game that was started/stopped multiple times. You have the twits that are in the city.. thinking that's the entire point of the game. Nope, you get into a ridiculously poorly balanced fight where you have to kite the idiot around the throne room til he dies. Anders blows up the tower, various fights... the end. The game seemed to be switched around to be console-friendly... dumbed down. Argh. > You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here. |
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| 4 MAY 2011 at 4:35pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Akhilles (4 MAY 2011 2:48pm) /Me nods in agreement * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 4 MAY 2011 at 8:24pm | |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By placeholder (4 MAY 2011 4:35pm)Originally Posted By Akhilles (4 MAY 2011 2:48pm) Sigh. Can’t disagree with anything that has been said here, and it has all been said. Gosh, it’s been a while since I stopped playing this game. Someone posted in a thread how horrible and devastating the ending was and that was right out of the blue which made me extremely upset especially since I had just begun the final campaign of act 3. Finally though, after a few more sessions up to around just before the confrontation with Orsino I paused and thought to myself geezes HC, it’s been really fun for a while, a rather long while, but this is just getting more tiresome than ever. And I start thinking - lets see now, since I’m a mage I probably won’t care for the ending which at this point that particular bit of information becomes a good thing. Surely I ought to be able to find someone playing as a mage siding with the templars on the PC who was thoughtful enough to post the endgame on UTube. Thank you whoever you are, you are a far better player then I will ever be. :-X Rise to Power huh? Talk about the most misleading box art I’ve ever encountered. : |
| 4 MAY 2011 at 8:37pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Camaroboy1968 (4 MAY 2011 8:23pm) Heh. See why I was a bit upset, being a mage? See why being a mage doesn't really make sense? Whomever you choose at the end, you lose - if you choose the templars, you have to kill your own people, but if you choose the mages, you think you have to kill the templars but you still end up having to kill your own people. Did you at least play long enough to see what Anders did? I'm not sure which confrontation with Orsino you mean. There's one pre-endgame, and a final battle too.) At the very end I didn't even get to be governor or whatever, even tho I betrayed my own people by choosing the templars. So when you find out at the end that you have just melted away into the shadows, the whole thing just feels pretty pointless, not to mention depressing. Anyway, you missed one heck of an end-battle is all I can say. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 5 MAY 2011 at 2:09am | |
| Deleted User | Anders seemed to have another of his psychotic episodes and blew up the chantry. Odd I thought as we seemed to be in some sort of a relationship and I didn’t expect him to come back. Orsino reminded me of something straight out of Awakenings although not as grotesque. Anyhow, from what I have seen the whole approach does seem more simplified when the supporting party members are tactically employed to know exactly what to do whereas you are able to keep control (most of the time) of your main character to guide the course of the battles. Something I should play around with I suppose. |
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