| 30 MAR 2011 at 2:12am |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | This sounds like an excellent undertaking, but how unfortunate that he had to say, 'I'd wanted to stay away from Myst clones too - there are just too many crappy ones, and since I'm really not a fan of the subgenre, didn't want to devote too much time and space to it...We also stuck in Obsidian, because people tend to regard it better than the average Myst clone.'
That sort of statement calls into question issues of credibility & objectivity ie. The statement about alleged 'crappy Myst clones' probably has more to do with 'I'm not a fan of the sub genre than objective truth.'
When challenged, no one has ever given me a credible list of all those crappy Myst clones! (Yes, I can name 2 or 3, but IMHO that doesn't qualify as 'all those'.)
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 2:20am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (30 MAR 2011 2:12am)
When challenged, no one has ever given me a credible list of all those crappy Myst clones! (Yes, I can name 2 or 3, but IMHO that doesn't qualify as 'all those'.)
And often they're just 1st person games and not really "Myst clones" at all.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 2:20am |
DonaJourneyman
Posts : 801
Joined: 19 MAR 2005
Status : Offline | Max plushie on the cover!! [smiley=love.gif]
/priorities
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 2:52am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Well, then crappy Myst clones it is. Best genre around. If FPS can claim Quake clones, so can we.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 4:11am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (30 MAR 2011 2:20am)
Originally Posted By SirDave (30 MAR 2011 2:12am)
When challenged, no one has ever given me a credible list of all those crappy Myst clones! (Yes, I can name 2 or 3, but IMHO that doesn't qualify as 'all those'.)
And often they're just 1st person games and not really "Myst clones" at all.
[smiley=bowdown.gif]
I agree whole-heartedly with both of you. I'm not a fan of dialog rich games like TLJ and the like (which I find crappy), but if you are going to discuss a subject you can't blatantly omit a huge part of it because you don't like it.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 5:52am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | This author's credibility is in doubt I'm afraid with opinions as narrow minded as those.
Still, we're all entitled to our own ignorance. [smiley=angel_smiley.gif]
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 7:41am |
CrisGerSchattenjger
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Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | It looks like another self aggrandizing effort of a large sized ego....who chose the e mail name of Cool at 42 sigh.
I would welcome serious work in a real book, but an online e zine type ""netbook" has no appeal to me .... i have been a editor and a publisher of real books and from what I see, i would have tossed this out on the slush pile with a bare glance. Too bad for it was a hopeful topic.
Unfortnately the net and the ease of computer generated text gives an illusion of quality and substance to any drivel whatsoever....we will have to re install the filters that real quality publisher used to offer and hopefully will again.
Admin
3D Worlds and Game Developers
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 6:20pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
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Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | OK, I'll bite, only because I recently speculated that Myst-clones did hurt the genre. This is my unofficial list of forgettable clones.
DISCLAIMER!
- I'm not necessarily saying that these games are "bad". However, they are without question derivative and may have given a wrong impression of the genre at the time. ie: "all adventures are like this". Personally, I would rank all the games on this list from "lousy" to "average". Even if you're a huge fan of some of these (I'm looking at you Celtica) you must admit that they are quite derivative.
- Similarly, I don't associate the term "Myst-clone" to a game that is necessarily an uninspired copy of Myst, but a product that clearly derived from the same basic idea (let's call it a "lightweight multimedia experience". That's not intended as a derogatory term by the way. Gadget is a great example of this; at first sight it doesn't have much to do with Myst, but it clearly built upon the same basic idea.
- You may say that most of the games are very obscure but I clearly remember hearing about them to some extent from '93 to '98. Even so, the very reason why they are obscure now reinforces the sentiment that they were forgettable.
- Exceptions to the list are games that clearly derived from Myst but either added a unique spin or exceeded in quality. Examples: Obsidian, The Dark Eye, Bad Day On The Midway.
- For the sake of objectivity, I could easily create a similar list of FMV adventures (and those are fairly bad as well). In my view, the frenzy of adventure developers to go "multimedia" is one of the key reasons which caused the downfall of the genre. FMV and Myst-clones are the prime victims of this. Bad 3D (ie: Simon The Sorcerer 3D) comes close.
- Finally, I'm positive that I'm forgetting about several titles. So far I listed 40 games.
Alice: An Interactive Museum
Beyond Time
Biosys
Blue Ice
Celtica
Comer
Congo
Dive
Drowned God
Dust
Forever Worlds
Gadget
Gag
Golden Gate
Gord@k
Isis
Lost Island Of Alanna
Louis Catorze
Martian Chronicles
Milo
Mirage
Morpheus
Mortalus
Mummy: Tomb Of The Pharaoh
Nine
Queen: The Eye
Physicus
Pilgrim
Quantum Gate
Reah
Robinson Crusoe
Secrets Of The Luxor
Spaceship Warlock
Symbiocom
The Cassandra Galleries
Timelapse
Tlon
Weird
Welcome To The Future
Zeddas
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 7:21pm |
tincup2Journeyman
Posts : 833
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @AC
Finally, I'm positive that I'm forgetting about several titles. So far I listed 40 games
SirDave has posted a very good overview of what defines a Myst-Like game and includes a pretty comprehensive list - check it out: http://justadventure.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1121474960 .
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 7:42pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
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Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Yes, SirDave's list was definitely exhaustive. However, he missed many games and others were developed post-2000, which means they don't fit my theory (the downfall of the genre begun in the mid 90's; by the new millennium, it was already in bad shape).
If I combine both lists and include all the games I forgot to mention (and that SirDave ranked 1-3) then the amount skyrockets to 80 poor to average Myst-clones. This is by no means a serious research, ie: I have not double-checked all dates, made sure every single game fits, etc.
Generally speaking, let's say about 500 adventures were developed between '93 and '99. I'm convinced that we can list up to 100 derivative Myst-clones and at least 50 uninspired FMV adventures. That's about a third of the entire production of adventures for the remainder of the 90's. And that is disregarding lousy third-person games as well. Think about it.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 8:24pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Location: US
Status : Offline | I agree that the book is far from perfect, but I'd actually still be quite interested in having a copy. I scrolled down a bit in that article, and the book does seem quite informative regarding older games? Most on which I missed out on at the time of release.)
So for a person like me it might be an interesting book to leaf through.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 8:40pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | then the amount skyrockets to 80 poor to average Myst-clones. This is by no means a serious research, ie: I have not double-checked all dates, made sure every single game fits, etc.
Well, tastes vary - most of my favorite games can be found in those 80 or so games. And I also dissagree with the theory that the downfall began in mid 90's - from my perspective that was a golden age. I was curious why you left out some bidg titles of the periord like Zork Nemesis and Lighthouse, as well as lots of the late 90's stuff. If you provided your criterion for what makes a Myst-Like game [as in SD's post] it might be easier to judge whether an ommision was likely by design or not.
As for the book idea - sounds interesting, though if it made an overt effort to bypass 1st person point-n-click I'd be less inclined.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 8:48pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
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Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I only bothered to list poor to average Myst-clones (I did explain that!). Zork Nemesis is certainly exempt because it exceeded in quality (and it also happens to be one of my favorite games from that period).
I believe the list is fairly forgiving though: note that I didn't mention dubious games like Lighthouse or Shivers which are only marginally above average. Again, I am not discussing taste here but the general perception or reaction towards derivative Myst-clones.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 9:52pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Status : Offline | Your'e right - I just wasn't sure if you were tagging "forgettable Myst-Clones" as a slight towards the entire genre or not.
My take on the rise and fall of the AG [but principally the 1st person P-n-C] is that they got pushed out of what was by the end of the 90's rapidly becoming a mult-billion dollar industry. AG's of the Myst sort are too quiet, internalized, quirky and ideosyncratic to meet the requirments of mainstream game advertising which needs pulse, brashness, interactivity, narrative and so forth. The qualities that make for a good AG, certainly of the Myst-Like type, are very hard for ad people to mount much of a campaign with. And they needed to do that since there were becoming so many new customers. AG's are to the rest of gaming as foreign/art movies are to Hollywood.
In the mid 90's AG players probably constituted a respectable percentage of gamers. But as the industry expoded, this group, probably for demographic reasons, did not explode along with it, but simply maintained it's size or just grew more slowly. As AG's lost market share to wide-appeal games the gaming press basically had to abandon AG's. The departure of many Adventure Game columnists opened the way to a new class of reviewers with little or no interest in the genre. At first this was expressed as a respecfull neutality, then outright indifference and finally a mocking "anti-stance", before jettisoning them altogether.
Thankfully if was this final banishment phase that gave AG's room to breath since they no longer were even permitted to compete on the main stage. AG's could be produced once more with the interests of the AG crowd front and center.
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| 30 MAR 2011 at 11:52pm |
IviniaGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (30 MAR 2011 6:20pm)
OK, I'll bite, only because I recently speculated that Myst-clones did hurt the genre. This is my unofficial list of forgettable clones.
This sucks. I generally agree with you on, well, everything, however...
- I'm not necessarily saying that these games are "bad". However, they are without question derivative and may have given a wrong impression of the genre at the time. ie: "all adventures are like this".
I have to disagree with this. Back in the day, games had screen shots on the box. It was quite easy to know which ones were like Myst and which ones weren't. Gabriel Knight: The Beast Within came out with a lot of fanfare and sold quite well. As did a number of 3rd person games at the time. To say people ran away from the genre because of Myst Clones (which people seem to define as any 1st person AG) is not accurate in my opinion. What made people run from the genre were FPS games. AGs in comparison came off as dull and boring compared to those.
- Similarly, I don't associate the term "Myst-clone" to a game that is necessarily an uninspired copy of Myst, but a product that clearly derived from the same basic idea (let's call it a "lightweight multimedia experience". That's not intended as a derogatory term by the way. Gadget is a great example of this; at first sight it doesn't have much to do with Myst, but it clearly built upon the same basic idea.
This is the part I don't understand, nor do I really understand Sir Dave's list since, while its a great list, I think it perpetuates the idea that all 1st games are Myst-clones. In all honesty, while playing Barrow Hill and Scratches, the idea of Myst never entered into my mind.
Heck, here's one for you...
The first graphical adventure game was Mystery House, a 1st person AG, by Sierra. From Wikipedia:
"Sierra soon took things further. Until this point adventure games were in the first person; images presented the décor as seen through the eyes of the player. Williams's company would introduce a new feature in the King's Quest series: a game in the third person."
So as opposed to saying Myst and its clones hijacked the genre and ruined it, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Myst was actually going back the the genres roots after being hijacked by 3rd person AGs? [smiley=whistle.gif]
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 12:07am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Status : Offline | @AC let's call it a "lightweight multimedia experience"
I'm new on this forum and I'm sure this subject has been debated to death at this point - but "lightweight multimedia experience" to describe Myst-Like games is not exactly a "value neutral" statementl!
It's funny - I turn to AG's, especially the first person type, precisely for the immersive "heavyweight" experience [Myst Revelation without a walkthrough for instance], leaving the self-annointed full-bodied games for lighter moments. But again tastes vary..
Oops, sorry for taking this off topic..
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 12:25am |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (30 MAR 2011 6:20pm)
OK, I'll bite, only because I recently speculated that Myst-clones did hurt the genre. This is my unofficial list of forgettable clones.
DISCLAIMER!
- I'm not necessarily saying that these games are "bad". However, they are without question derivative and may have given a wrong impression of the genre at the time. ie: "all adventures are like this". Personally, I would rank all the games on this list from "lousy" to "average". Even if you're a huge fan of some of these (I'm looking at you Celtica) you must admit that they are quite derivative.
- Similarly, I don't associate the term "Myst-clone" to a game that is necessarily an uninspired copy of Myst, but a product that clearly derived from the same basic idea (let's call it a "lightweight multimedia experience". That's not intended as a derogatory term by the way. Gadget is a great example of this; at first sight it doesn't have much to do with Myst, but it clearly built upon the same basic idea.
I'm confused as to what the point is. There seems to be some ambivalence and some concern over the fact that a number of games are derivative of Myst.
Fr'instance, I'm not sure how one can put 'I'm not necessarily saying that these games are "bad".' in the same paragraph as 'I would rank all the games on this list from "lousy" to "average".' As to 'derivative', well, most AGs that continued after 1996-2000 or so could be said to have been derivative of games that preceeded them. I understand that you're pointing out that the games on your list are 'derivative' of Myst, but, in the end, so what?
As to the list- I will give you that it indicates that you know your adventure games. A lot of those games are obscure and my guess is that while you may have been aware of a lot of them, most typical adventure gamers likely weren't. I'm a collector so I know most of them and actually have 24 of the 40 in prime boxed condition.
But again, I don't think the list supports the point that (I think) you're making. I will give you that there are a few clunkers on there, but, on the other hand, a number of people would argue against games like Morpheus, Timelapse, Reah, Secrets of the Luxor, The Cassandra Galleries and a few others being just 'average'.
Still, even if most of those games could be said to be average- Drowned God, Celtica, Mummy and the like, what's wrong with 'average'? I've been happy as a clam playing average Myst-like games. Given all the things that can go wrong in developing a game, producing what turns out to be an 'average' game could be said to be an accomplishment of sorts.
- For the sake of objectivity, I could easily create a similar list of FMV adventures (and those are fairly bad as well). In my view, the frenzy of adventure developers to go "multimedia" is one of the key reasons which caused the downfall of the genre. FMV and Myst-clones are the prime victims of this. Bad 3D (ie: Simon The Sorcerer 3D) comes close.
There are probably many reasons for the fall of the genre, but I could make a case for the fact that bad Myst clones or Myst clones, period, are among the least of them, if they count at all. First, the beginning of the end could be laid at the feet of the 1997 The Last Express which bankrupted Broderbund. No developer or venture capitalist was going to spend big bucks on any adventure game after that unfortunate event (given that it was a good game after all).
Second, the Myst games themselves continued to draw people to AGs as late as 2005; a considerable feat given the competition for the gameplayer's dollar that had developed by then. In addition, the template of the Myst-like game provided a way for indie developers to create games inexpensively (think Outcry), compared to 3rd person, story-oriented games that were more difficult and expensive to create. This may have encouraged the continued development of a number of games past a point where it would have been otherwise less likely to occur.
But finally, the fall of AG development to the present pitiful situation probably has more to do with competition from various other genres, particularly FPS games and the like, than anything else. In other words, even if AG development had not included Myst-like games, the result would have been the same.
I still think that the iPad and the table platform in general are going to resurrect some AG development. There are signs of it occurring already.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 12:27am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @Irv This is the part I don't understand, nor do I really understand Sir Dave's list since, while its a great list, I think it perpetuates the idea that all 1st games are Myst-clones.
hmm.. I though it circumscribed the range of games fitting the illusive Myst description quite well. But at heart there just aren't that many games that come across like Myst. Even the ensuing Myst sequels quickly lost the original Myst "feel", regardless of how good they were - which they were. The whole Myst clone debate is a bit of red herring. Myst seems to raise the ire of many gamers who regard it much like a "Buck Hunter" or "Sims" intruder into the world of gaming. It may be more usefull to debate the merits of games using the broader category of first person point-n-click, but then again those that automatically think Myst-Clone will fire off - the cycle continues..
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 1:12am |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (30 MAR 2011 11:52pm)
This is the part I don't understand, nor do I really understand Sir Dave's list since, while its a great list, I think it perpetuates the idea that all 1st games are Myst-clones. In all honesty, while playing Barrow Hill and Scratches, the idea of Myst never entered into my mind.
Those that think my list perpetuates the idea that all 1st person games are Myst-clones missed or ignored the prologue:
---------------------------
The following is a list of games that are said to be Myst-like not because that while playing them they could be mistaken for the Myst games themselves, but because they more or less emulate the general design of the Myst games by incorporating most or all of the following features:
1st person perspective.
Solitary adventuring with limited character interaction and limited or no dialogue.
Puzzles at least or nearly as important as plot with plot often subtle or part of the discovery process.
Limited or no inventory.
Node-based movement with 2D graphics from slide-show (eg. Myst) to panned pre-rendered graphics (eg. Myst Exile).
Putting together a list like this is not as simple as it may seem.
-----------------------
The last point, as was explained further, was because some games had a fair number of those elements while others had less. Player's opinions varied widely as to which games gave them that Myst-like feeling. While it could be said that some games on the list are more 'first-person' than Myst-like then all I can say is that no list of any sub-genre is going to be perfect. Plus, my sense was that many players who liked the Myst games found similarities with the type of challenge and feel of the Myst experience in most of the games listed.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 1:20am |
IviniaGuild Master
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Location: US
Status : Offline | As you and Tincup pointed out, I seem to have missed the prologue. Perhaps I'm still feeling a bit jaded by those reviews on gaming sites referring to 1st person AGs as Myst clones - as well as AG site that seem to omit 1st person games altogether.
Personally I have no preference as I enjoy them both.
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 1:22am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Status : Offline | @SirDave
1st person perspective.
Solitary adventuring with limited character interaction and limited or no dialogue.
Puzzles at least or nearly as important as plot with plot often subtle or part of the discovery process.
Limited or no inventory.
Node-based movement with 2D graphics from slide-show (eg. Myst) to panned pre-rendered graphics (eg. Myst Exile).
As I've posted elsewhere your 5-point definition strikes me as good as we're likely to get. But perhaps people haven't played enough games of this ilk to recognise the nuances that distinguish these qualities from others.
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 1:35am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Status : Offline | ...by those reviews on gaming sites referring to 1st person AGs as Myst clones
Lol so true.. How many FPS reviews ever dwell on a shooters Quake/Doom origin as an albatross?
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 4:06am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
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Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Alright, here goes nothing. It's late and I drank a strong vermouth - you have been warned!
My point is: the author of the book stated his position "I'd wanted to stay away from Myst clones too - there are just too many crappy ones”. Instantly, everyone questioned his credibility and objectivity. More so, a few went as far as saying that the so-called "crappy Myst-clones" are nowhere to be seen.
The author certainly didn't choose the happiest words and sounded offensive, but he made a valid point: Myst-clones are simply not that relevant. If I were to write a serious document on the history of adventure games, the period of Myst-clones would be a brief footnote because they are primarily derivative games that added little to the genre. The exceptions have been duly noted: Zork Nemesis, The Dark Eye, Obsidian, etc. but we’re at most talking about a dozen good titles against (likely) above 80 poor to average games. It's seriously embarrassing.
The first and valid question is: what's so bad about being average? Well, with the above considerations (games that truly mattered in the genre) average doesn't count. Sorry, we must be critical in this regard - average means forgettable. Average games can't be taken seriously. What's even more crucial IMO is that, if you're going to copy something, you should try better than average. In my view, a game that is both derivative and average doesn't deserve much respect.
SirDave nailed it: "In addition, the template of the Myst-like game provided a way for indie developers to create games inexpensively (think Outcry), compared to 3rd person, story-oriented games that were more difficult and expensive to create." I wholeheartedly agree with you there. That's exactly the problem with Myst-clones. You consider this a positive thing but I see it as a strongly negative side effect. A "template" is bad by definition -- it limits creativity. The original Myst was unique, I concede that, but repeating a formula is never a good thing (think Hollywood). Admittedly, you could say that many adventures attempt to repeat a formula, but you mentioned another big problem with Myst-clones: they are cheap to make! So, many jumped into the bandwagon to copy the template and the dreadful result is obvious: a saturated market.
Outcry is an excellent case in point: I personally liked the game, it's really moody and well done. But still, from a critical standpoint, it's average at best. I insist, "well done" should be a requisite, not a goal.
Also, we all seem to agree that a common denominator in all Myst-clones is a distinct lack of narrative. Personal tastes aside, common sense dictates this a bad thing. The original Myst was a breakthrough and admittedly had a clever design, but note how Cyan themselves eventually introduced more and more story-driven elements in the later titles. They realized it was the minimum necessary to avoid repeating the formula. Most "copycats" failed to understand this and disregarded the narrative. The result is games like Reah, Celtica, Timelapse, Crystal Key, Nacah, Milo, Beyond Time, and many, many more which are practically Myst with different graphics. This is absolutely terrible from every conceivable perspective. You might like the subgenre, but you have to admit that none of those games can be taken seriously.
Look at what's happening with the hidden object genre for instance: yes, there are hordes of players that love them, but they are awfully formulaic games and completely forgettable. It's really the same effect: they are cheap to make and many people plays them. Eventually comes a game like Drawn: The Painted Tower which adds a truly original twist and makes a difference. But that's only a small percentage of the vast amount of insipid formulaic games. Similarly, I can count with my fingers the Myst-clones that are truly worthwhile, amidst an endless list of vapid copies.
To reinforce my previous arguments: a game that relies on good narrative is a much stronger game than one which completely disregards it. Most Myst-clones I have seen cared not about the story. Also, competent quality should be a requisite, not a goal. Again, most Myst-clones did little beyond that.
For the record, I did not say that the wave of Myst-clones were the single reason why people ran away from the genre. I believe they played an important role however (flooding a market is never a good thing). As I see it, there were two major technological breakthroughs that adventures failed to cope with: CD-ROM and 3D. There's no point in discussing the exceptions... Yes, Gabriel Knight 2 was a hit, and Phantasmagoria to some extent. Myst, The Journeyman Project and The 7th Guest were games that made the most out of the available space. That said, the vast majority of releases since the dawn of the CD era either filled the bytes with dubious voice acting, boring and cheap cutscenes, or simply attempted to repeat the formula of the pioneers. See what happened with Rebel Assault and the (still maligned to this day) rail shooter subgenre. And don't get me started on 3D either, which only until recently has been properly used in adventures.
As an experiment, study the adventures released in CD since '93 and during the following decade. Pick several and rate them with criteria and objectivity. You will be very surprised. In 1999 alone, out of 60 or so titles produced, I can probably save 4 or 5 -- with good will.
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| 31 MAR 2011 at 4:40am |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Augustin, ordinarily, being someone who particularly likes the Myst-like subgenre, I would vigorously argue some of the points above, but I can see that it would be futile because we see things from an entirely different perspective. You do make your points particularly eloquently (vermuth notwithstanding ) and they have the credibility of someone who has put their money where their mouth is as a developer so I have to give that a certain respect.
So, suffice it to say that the fact that I don't agree with some of the points you are particularly passionate about doesn't necessarily make you wrong. Nor does that necessarily make me wrong. We just happen to be on quite a different wave-length on this subject.
However, I will leave you with one example of our differences: You said, 'Most "copycats" failed to understand this and disregarded the narrative. The result is games like Reah, Celtica, Timelapse, Crystal Key, Nacah, Milo, Beyond Time, and many, many more which are practically Myst with different graphics. This is absolutely terrible from every conceivable perspective. You might like the subgenre, but you have to admit that none of those games can be taken seriously.
I do take Reah, Celtica and Timelapse very seriously and I enjoyed them a lot. (Plus, while I don't put it on the same plane as the latter, I also enjoyed Crystal Key.) In fact, I would point out that Reah, rather than being dismissed as a Myst copycat was (as you know) actually the beginning of the 'Detalion line of games' including Schizm 1&2 and Sentinel which I'm sure Maciek (or Miasik?) would say were meant to be entirely original in design rather than simply Myst clones. And while I did put them under the Myst-like umbrella, I always felt that they were quite unique in their design whether it be the storyline, puzzles or graphics. Yes, they gave me some of the same 'feel' of playing the Myst games, but they very much stood on their own.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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