| 27 MAR 2011 at 5:19pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @Walsh: Your point is valid, but there is a sub-genre of AG's, Scratches being a member, that are based on the idea that the game shouldn't intervien as little as possible to flesh out "your" personality, but only be your eyes and ears. Basically they try to leave you with your own thoughts by distracting you as little as possible with voice-overs and other overt attemps to say who you are and what you should be thinking, and prodding you along in that fashion. Some people are comfortable with this approach [I prefer it], others less so.
The disadvantage is that they can and do run into the gameplay difficulties you cite since it's always easier to tell rather than show. They can struggle with storytelling, puzzle/game world logic and so forth. The desgners responibility in this type of game is to create an environment where the things you see and interact with move the game along in an effective way - no easy to do when hewing closely to the pure "you are there" theme. But when successful these sorts of games can achieve a degree of personal intimacy not possible in games that furnish you with a designed personality, inner thoughts, appearance, motivations etc.
As far a Scratches goes it did suffer from a certain lack of object interation/clue mechanisms to keep you engaged all the time - it could have used a good 20-25% more grit to work with. Like you I found myself wandering a lot very perplexed. Fortunately the game was immersive and this sense of perplexion felt justified - I don't mind feeling perplexed if the question is intruiging enough, and which is ultimatley why I ended up liking the game. The ending cut scenes where a dissapointment..
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| 18 APR 2011 at 9:17pm |
AnnacatIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 97
Joined: 23 JAN 2005
Status : Offline | I find mind-reading expectations to be a major problem in some games... not just expecting you to read a character's mind, but to read the developer's mind. Some developers seem to think that an inadequately clued puzzle is a good way to up the difficulty level. In a way, I guess it is - but it makes for a more frustrating experience rather than a more thoughtful challenge.
It's the difference between "Wow, that was devilish, I'm proud of myself for solving it!" and "Where did that solution come from? How the heck was I ever supposed to figure that out? My only options were guessing or a walkthrough!" The first is the good kind of hard puzzle; the second is the bad kind.
I think the problem Scratches in particular occasionally runs into is that it's not a fully-fleshed out protagonist, but it's also not a completely undefined protagonist. It falls somewhere in the middle, which sometimes leads to conflict.
In The Lost Crown, you play as Nigel, and you have a good sense of what Nigel would do in any given situation because he has a lot of personality. In Myst, though, for example, your character is not defined at all, but it's not important because you don't have to interpret anyone's intentions but your own as player. (In other words, you may get stuck in Myst, but for other reasons than needing to figure out what the protagonist would have done in this situation.)
Michael is... kind of in the middle. He's a specific character, but his personality is only loosely pinned down. You have to act as him; you don't always know him well enough to know what he would do. And therein lies the problem. You know him, but sometimes not well enough. "You are you" doesn't work as well when you're actually supposed to be playing someone else.
The thing is, the "return to the novel" choice could be clued without Michael outright saying it if we knew more about his motivations. For example, his editor could have been bugging him all along, or he could have a note to himself about a deadline that would fall between game days. If the developer had wanted to go in the direction of defining the character more, Michael could have been making comments all along about how the mystery was distracting him from his book, rather than vice versa.
Basically, if we're supposed to be acting as a character other than ourselves, we need some guidelines about that character's personality to figure out what he or she would do. If we're supposed to be acting as ourselves, we don't need protagonist detail... but we also shouldn't be running into decisions that are predicated on being someone else.
I think where Scratches runs into trouble is actually not at either extreme, but at the times where it tries to have it both ways.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 9:56pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ Annacat - interesting observations. I think you're basically right about the protaganist in Scratches - but I do think the developers tried to include as little as possible in the way of "what would Michael do, what is he thinking" in such and such a situation.
The virtue of Myst was always there was absolutely no need for any justification for your protagonist - it was you, and you just stumbled into the whole situation. But not many of the Mystlike games have tried or carried this purist approach off; Zork games do it, but for the most part developers try to "set the table" in a more traditional fashion. But there is quite a range in how 'set' things can get. A main reason is many games are set here on earth where there might seem to be a plausible explanation for you being there.
In this regard Scratches is far closer to Myst than say Broken Sword. It's on par with the wonderful OutCry I recently finished. To give it some degree of authentic terrestral flavor both games don you with some trappings of a character, but not much. Scratches suffers in comparison to Outcry in that OutCry has a great deal more things for you to actually do in the game [puzzles/objects] do to advance the plot. The lack of these mechanics in Scratches makes the paucity of leading instruction ["read my mind" issues the poster started with] more apparent.
In games where the protagonist is not a fully developed character game mechanics are of prime importance - no wiggling out of a jam by conversation, cut scenes, or putting words in your head to steer things along.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 10:00pm |
AnnacatIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 97
Joined: 23 JAN 2005
Status : Offline | For the record, I hope no one will take what I said to mean I didn't like Scratches or didn't think it was a good game. (I did, and I do.) I just think no game is flawless, and this little identity crisis was one issue I did have with it.
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| 18 APR 2011 at 10:21pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | haha - me too. I really liked Scratches - think I put it in my top 15 or 20 on some list here at JA+. I'm just up on OutCry right now because I think they really nailed it.
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| 19 MAY 2011 at 12:03am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mgonneau (18 APR 2011 9:56pm)
@ Annacat - interesting observations. I think you're basically right about the protaganist in Scratches - but I do think the developers tried to include as little as possible in the way of "what would Michael do, what is he thinking" in such and such a situation.
The virtue of Myst was always there was absolutely no need for any justification for your protagonist - it was you, and you just stumbled into the whole situation. But not many of the Mystlike games have tried or carried this purist approach off; Zork games do it, but for the most part developers try to "set the table" in a more traditional fashion. But there is quite a range in how 'set' things can get. A main reason is many games are set here on earth where there might seem to be a plausible explanation for you being there.
In this regard Scratches is far closer to Myst than say Broken Sword. It's on par with the wonderful OutCry I recently finished. To give it some degree of authentic terrestral flavor both games don you with some trappings of a character, but not much. Scratches suffers in comparison to Outcry in that OutCry has a great deal more things for you to actually do in the game [puzzles/objects] do to advance the plot. The lack of these mechanics in Scratches makes the paucity of leading instruction ["read my mind" issues the poster started with] more apparent.
In games where the protagonist is not a fully developed character game mechanics are of prime importance - no wiggling out of a jam by conversation, cut scenes, or putting words in your head to steer things along.
That's the problem, isn't it? On one hand there's the immersion of being yourself and on the other hand still playing a role in the story which means you can't fully be 'you'. There must be some way you came to be in the game story in the first place, giving the character a backstory which is involved in the game.
I probably should have realized Michael was a writer and was in the house to write a novel. Then again, I did return to the typewriter many times in the game with the intention of writing and it didn't let me type. If I am to play as "me", shouldn't I be able to decide when I type and when I explore the house? It's a small complaint and much more of a problem in other games than Scratches, which I loved as a game.
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| 22 MAY 2011 at 4:34pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | That's the problem, isn't it? On one hand there's the immersion of being yourself and on the other hand still playing a role in the story which means you can't fully be 'you'. There must be some way you came to be in the game story in the first place, giving the character a backstory which is involved in the game.
I agree it's a challenge but more so in games where narrative and character arc play an important role. But the subset of AG's where you simply find yourself 'dropped into the game' far less is required in the way of a prepared biography for you the protagonist. The Mysts, Zork Nemesis, Lighthouse, and TimeLapse's of the AG world largely side-step the issue by avoiding game play that hinges in any meaningfull way with character motivation [at least yours]. Maybe you are meant to be a friend or relative of an unseen character who receives a mysterious and urgent call to meet them or try to follow them, but that's about it.
This aspect vexes gamer's who value a healthy layer of character development, narrative and motivation-based gameplay. Though not my personal cup of tea - I generally recoil from attempts to enforce a theatrical role on me as protagonist, I do understand how others may object to the paucity of story. But I'm sure I'm in the minority here...
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| 23 MAY 2011 at 9:29pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | I finished playing Scratches for the first time a few weeks ago and also noticed how despite having a personal journal of the main character the player is left without clear directions. I even mentioned this in my review of the game. However, I'm the kind of player who likes this approach if done well (and so it is in the majority Scratches) - I felt more immersed, given more freedom. Interesting to read you guys compare this to other adventure games.
For example, I had just finished a puzzle to get into a secret room, and after roaming back and forth for hours I discovered that the next thing I was expected to do was go to my typewriter and work on my novel! This is in the middle of trying to solve a mystery.
When it comes to Michael's writing, it felt natural to me to come back and try to write once in a while. After all Micheal doesn't say he has to solve the whole mystery before he can work on the book - usually he just mentions he's currently too anxious to think of new bits of his story.
Nevertheless, there's a situation late in the game when the player is required to fix Micheal's car despite the fact earlier on he decided it is of no immediate importance. And indeed the only result of this action is that some time in the game passes. I found this one moment of Scratches rather annoying.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 24 MAY 2011 at 12:58pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Nevertheless, there's a situation late in the game when the player is required to fix Micheal's car despite the fact earlier on he decided it is of no immediate importance. And indeed the only result of this action is that some time in the game passes. I found this one moment of Scratches rather annoying.
Wasn't there another clunker type 'time release' puzzle as well? I seem to remember that you couldn't dig the body up, even if you were sure where it was, until something else happened, or time had passed or the correct hour had arrived. Like the car this was a bit clumsy - a game mechanic repeated many times in AGs, but with more game to cover up these singularities they tend to pass unnotice.
Scratches needed a bit more meat on the bone - ie puzzles [I think I've said this before] to help massage the clash between puzzle world and narrative linearity - a few more puzzles with the object of clarifying what is going on at that particular moment so as to give the player a greater sense of the necessity of certain actions. Luckily the game's spareness was also a virtue as it helped give the game a tense focus.
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| 24 MAY 2011 at 3:33pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By mgonneau (24 MAY 2011 12:58pm)
Wasn't there another clunker type 'time release' puzzle as well? I seem to remember that you couldn't dig the body up, even if you were sure where it was, until something else happened, or time had passed or the correct hour had arrived.
That is exactly the moment you need to fix the car. Maybe another player can miss something else that was also needed for the time to pass. For example, getting into the chapel and finding a certain something. Nevertheless, I think the car was the only activities completely disconnected from all other problems/sub-plots.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 24 MAY 2011 at 4:03pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Joined: 8 MAR 2011
Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | They could have allowed you to fix the car at some prior point - say after finding a part or tool you needed, but then stopped you from actually leaving [until the denoument] with a monologue comment like "but no - I can't leave just yet!" or some other device. This would have given you a bit more freedom to solve the later puzzles in a less linear time-released way.
Digging up the body was the most frustrating part for me since I had the clues and knew where it had to be.. roaming around looking for the 'trigger' killed some of the immersive quality. It was different than looking for a clue or missing piece to a puzzle.
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| 24 MAY 2011 at 5:05pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By mgonneau (24 MAY 2011 4:02pm)
They could have allowed you to fix the car at some prior point - say after finding a part or tool you needed, but then stopped you from actually leaving [until the denoument] with a monologue comment like "but no - I can't leave just yet!" or some other device. This would have given you a bit more freedom to solve the later puzzles in a less linear time-released way.
Digging up the body was the most frustrating part for me since I had the clues and knew where it had to be.. roaming around looking for the 'trigger' killed some of the immersive quality. It was different than looking for a clue or missing piece to a puzzle.
Fully agreed.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 29 JUN 2011 at 11:15am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | I like the approach Alpha Polaris takes, where you click on your character to find out what he's thinking or what he wants to do. You can choose not to click if you don't want to or have already figured it out. It might sound like this would make the game too easy but somehow it doesn't.
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| 30 JUN 2011 at 12:48am |
tincup2Journeyman
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | Probably one of the better built-in hint systems as it blends in fairly smoothly. Anything but having a cutsie smartaclec wiseguy sidekick over your shoulder chiming in...
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| 4 AUG 2011 at 2:46pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By walsh (19 MAR 2011 10:12am)
I was reading a review of Scratches by Gamespot (not the most reputable source for AGs, I know) and while it predictably panned the game quite harshly, they did raise what I thought was a reasonably fair point:
With little in the way of direction, and hints so sparse and subtle that random chance plays as large a role as logical deduction, you'll regularly find yourself just wandering around the house, randomly picking up and examining items in hopes that you'll uncover the next step in your "adventure."
I had similar thoughts when I was playing Scratches. The player would finish a puzzle then having no idea what my character was thinking, could spend the next hour traversing the house looking for things that would trigger a new puzzle.
For example, I had just finished a puzzle to get into a secret room, and after roaming back and forth for hours I discovered that the next thing I was expected to do was go to my typewriter and work on my novel! This is in the middle of trying to solve a mystery.
I feel this is a little unrealistic and very different from how the in-game character would work. He would first have a thought then go and do it, and it would be nice if he shared these thoughts with us occasionally.
The Lost Crown is a game which does this properly, when the main character talks to himself hinting gently what he wants to do. I prefer this because it doesn't require me to read the character's mind and determine when he needs to go to the bathroom.
On the other hand I could see someone arguing the opposite, that it makes a game more challenging and allows the player to completely assume the role of the character.
What are some other games which do this? (The Monkey Island series comes to mind). Do you find it frustrating?
It;s true.. The game sucks, like.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 5 AUG 2011 at 5:50pm |
tincup2Journeyman
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Location: US, NYC
Status : Offline | @ COD - none the less many people who found fault with the game also liked it a lot - I did. I prefer the weakness inherent in their approach to overly verbose and chatty protaqonists - ESPECIALLY in 1st person pov games.
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| 6 AUG 2011 at 7:11am |
walshSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 384
Joined: 15 DEC 2010
Status : Offline | Every game has its faults. Scratches has a few but in my opinion has many more strengths, making it a rarity in adventure gaming.
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