| 5 FEB 2011 at 1:23am |
| Deleted User | One thing is almost certain - there is no UNIVERSAL answer to this important question.
It depends upon the individual.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 1:58am |
| Deleted User | First a question:-
In many 1st world countries, shoaling is for up to 12 years from around 6 to about 18. After that, some continue to college (often part of a university).
Is college in USA [A] the first couple of years AFTER 18, or the last couple of years 16 thro' 18?
For the moment I'll assume that the definition of college is [A] above.
I have had almost a lifetime's hands-on experience of education involving pupils, students, and fairly large family and friends.
For some individuals, a college education is extremely beneficial and often the necessary key to a productive life-profession.
For some others it is a waste of time and energy, a source of dislike and frustration. For many of this category it is far better to learn a trade &/or apprenticeship which will lay the groundwork for a happy working future – and not infrequently a more lucrative earning power together with less stress~!
It is wise for a (good) parent to properly and honestly guide their offspring into the direction their temperaments and real abilities lie, and certainly not to pressure them into directions that they are really not suite to often for the parents own egos!
If there is any interest in my above opinions I can amplify and mention some reallife examples.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 2:07am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1464
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | There is no real answer to this. IT depends on what you want to do with your life, some things require you to have college experience.
This brings up a saying that often goes around. It's not about what you know, but WHO you know. Making contacts with people, getting to know those in the field you want to work can often be the key to getting your foot in the door. The main thing is just figuring out what you want to do.
Sometimes, as life as, you'll often find yourself doing something you didn't expect. If you aren't happy working where you are or know what you want to do, don't give up or just let yourself get stuck in a rut. IF you want to become something you have to make it happen, no one else will.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 2:28am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | There is an answer to this rather vague question. It is: sometimes.
It really depends on what you want to do Chrono. I remember you mentioned a while back that you wash dishes in a restaurant and you were upset because they were asking you to wash a grill as well? If you're still there, then it must be obvious to you that a college education wouldn't make you any better at your job but it may have put you in a different job.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 5:56am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | In the U.S. at the moment, overall unemployment is around 10%. However, unemployment is 'only' 5% among college-educated people.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 7:40am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Yes, it absolutely depends what occupation you are interested in doing. If you wanted to do a trade like being a plumber or electrician, you have to do the college courses geared to that specific trade and an apprenticeship with a plumber/electrician/fitter and turner or whatever your chosen occupation is.
If you're going to go for some professional occupation, like a medical doctor, veterinary surgeon, lawyer or the like, then you have to do the specific university course (usually quite a few years) as required for that profession, plus a few years (usually 1-3) doing practical training as well.
If you're going to do some general job like a builder or salesman or whatever, then on-the-job training usually takes place, so your training absolutely depends on what it is you're interested in doing.
Certain occupations like being a chef or a caterer, you'd go to chef school or "hospitality service" school, and let's say you'd wanted to be a dancer, you'd have to start your training pretty young, and go to a school that specialises in the arts/and or that particular art.
..and by the way, although there are many IT courses that you can do online or at 'private' colleges - beware. These (especially those that teach you a programming language) do not always guarantee you a job, and many employers in this field require a 2-year college diploma or a three or 4 year university degree.
Anyway, bottom line is that it's best to choose your occupation first, and then to find out what the education (and market) requirements are for that occupation.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 7:51am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline |
Tig, I don't really know you very well, but I would like to make some observations, if I may.
You have always impressed me as a very kind and thoughtful person, someone who would never want to hurt anyone or any thing.
I get the feeling that you take great care of those around you, and if you're not exactly sure how to do stuff, you're not afraid to ask.
Me, I've said this before: I don't like the word "career" very much. It seems it has acquired a dreadful connotation that murmurs, "If I don't have a career, I'm nothing!" or "My career is ruined!"
Nevermind. It's just a silly pet peeve of mine. But my point is that we try to find something in our lives we can do that not only helps us be reasonably at peace with ourselves but that may also help others as well.
And if we can get paid for doing whatever that is... well, that's really nice. So I like to think of one's work as being a succession of (uh-oh!) "jobs". It seems more manageable that way.
College. University. Higher learning. Academia. Whatever. Please don't let these words frighten you. When I look at them, I still get the shakes. School. Ugh.
Or maybe not. You mentioned zookeeper. Pepsi might get a little jealous, but she'll get over it. I love aminals. I grok with them much better than humans more often than not, but I have to get along with humans. (Caroline knows how difficult that is for me)
Gee, Tig. You can do pretty much whatever you want. Trust your feelings. Learn how to do what you feel good about. If college will help you learn how to do whatever that is, then maybe some helpful instruction is okay for you.
If taking care of aminals is what you like, then there's that to check into. There are many, many ways to do something one likes and make a living doing it. It may seem like it will take forever to "measure up" to others' expectations - and it does. We can never measure up for "those people over there".
Tig, don't worry. Your kindness and caring attention to others is apparent and those qualities will take you a long way, no matter what you decide to do next.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 10:05am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | If you still like the idea of zookeeping, maybe you can get a volunteer job for starters at your local zoo, but whatever the case, it couldn't hurt talking to the managment there to get an idea of the possibilities, if you're serious.
Some zookeeping jobs do require a college education, but I'm pretty sure that others don't. http://www.jobmonkey.com/animaljobs/zookeeper.html
If you like caring for things, plants, animals or people, have you ever thought of trying out being a nursing assistant or an orderly at a hospital?
http://www.michigan.gov/healthcareers/0,1607,7-221-39742-64529--,00.html
You could perhaps also enquire for jobs at your local nursery. (The kind that sells plants.)
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 10:28am |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (5 FEB 2011 7:40am)
..and by the way, although there are many IT courses that you can do online or at 'private' colleges - beware. These (especially those that teach you a programming language) do not always guarantee you a job, and many employers in this field require a 2-year college diploma or a three or 4 year university degree.
It is true that many employers in the tech industry want resumes from people with degrees. However, quite a lot of others don't care. The tech industry is a bit unusual in that it is a meritocracy more than most fields. The fact is that it's pretty hard to fake good tech skills in a job interview. So if you can demonstrate your skills, most employers don't really care about your educational background. To be honest, a college education helps most just in getting your resume noticed to begin with, and/or meeting the people that might become future contacts. (I have friends in the industry who don't even have high school degrees, and they do as well as I do with my degree because they know their stuff.)
And if we're specifically talking about computer programming, then yes, most online courses aren't worth the price. Buy a book, find and read tutorials on the web, but above all write your own programs. There is just no substitute for hands-on experience. A college degree in German literature won't help you get work as a UN interpreter if you haven't also put in the time conversing with native German speakers.
Don't get me wrong. A college education can and will make you a better programmer. But it can't make you into a programmer.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 10:41am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Yes, the point I was trying to make about certain of these "Colleges" , is that they charge people a fortune for their 'tuition', and then it ends up being something like a 3-month crash course that you could have done yourself for much cheaper.
A lot of people end up wasting good money because of the way these are advertised; they create the false illusion that doing a course with them will guarantee a job.
Much better to do your research in the market itself as to the requirements, than to fall for clever advertising.
Oh, and like you and another poster or 2 said: it helps a lot who you know..
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 1:14pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | While the unemployment rate is generally lower and the pay is generally higher for people who have had a college education, this is not universally true. I don't know how it works in other parts of the world, but here it is almost a waste to spend 3 years studying to become a historian or an archeologist, if you want a job, simply because those fields are so popular, yet there are so few job openings in those fields.
A higher education is valuable because of 3 reasons:
You will learn the specific skills needed for a particular fields
Having a degree will show that you are a very responsible person, who is good at learning new skills
It will teach you critical thinking, to a far greater degree than almost anything else.
But getting a higher education won't be worth a whole lot to you unless you are interested in that particular field. Far too many are nearly forced into studying at a university, because their parents wants them to, or because "it is expected of them". Those people will usually not get very far, and they won't be happy with their job.
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 5:23pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (5 FEB 2011 1:13pm)
But getting a higher education won't be worth a whole lot to you unless you are interested in that particular field. Far too many are nearly forced into studying at a university, because their parents wants them to, or because "it is expected of them". Those people will usually not get very far, and they won't be happy with their job.
While it is not a good idea to go into a field one doesn't like, I advise young people to go into fields that they are good at and for which there is a reasonable demand. If one does well in a given vocation, is respected by their peers and makes a reasonable living at it, then happiness usually follows.
On the other hand if the emphasis is going into a field that one l-o-v-e-s, but there are only 3 available jobs for it in the country, then life is not likely going to be so rosey.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 5 FEB 2011 at 5:57pm |
New WolfboySpace Cadet
Posts : 133
Joined: 27 JUL 2010
Status : Online | Having a college or university education CAN increase the range and level of entry for a job. But it is still dependant on yourself as a person and how you approach the job in question. Ultimately if you are looking at your education as 'job prep', you are taking it the wrong way and should reconsider if it will be any use to you.
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 12:14pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | It depends on the field and as Len says - the individual.
One of my responsibilities is for interviewing people when certain positions comes up. This is an IT field which really is heavily dependent on the individual.
IT is one of those rapidly changing fields due to technology moving at such a fast pace. Someone who got a Computer Science degree 20 years ago might have been taught Fortran and Pascal. Nowadays its things like Java, C#, Objective C, etc.
You can easily get into an IT position by experience alone and no degree. One thing that does increase your odds (and starting salary) is being up to date on your programming languages via certifications. You don't need to have a certification, but it can help.
When looking for a job a few years back, virtually every location gave some sort of IT test to verify that you did know what was written on your resume. I've interviewed people with degrees who stated that they were experts in the particular languages we were looking for and they couldn't answer the simplest of questions. Likewise, I've interviewed those with no degrees who could answer the questions. Guess who got hired?
Just a quick thing to point out here. Personality goes a LONG way. When you are being interviewed for a job, they aren't just looking at your qualifications. They are looking at your personality to determine how well you will fit in with the team and more importantly - the customers. You can be a genius but have an arrogant personality or be very dry and monotone. No one is going to want to work with you. The only position you might get is where they throw the request over the wall to you and you get it done - like Database Administrator positions.
In the positions I've had though, they all involved direct communication and interaction with customers. For that your personality weighs in a lot.
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 3:12pm |
| Deleted User | Not my field or experience at all - but very interesting!
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 5:52pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
As mentioned already by several others, a college degree is of course required for many professions. But there are countless good jobs that don't require degrees. In fact, for many jobs, paying a fortune in college tuition, etc. is mainly a waste of money.
However, there is more to higher education than just getting a degree needed to qualify for a specifc position. It helps broaden your perspective of the world and expands your overall knowledge base while promoting self-reliance / independence. It also exposes you to a diverse set of people including potential mentors, close friends / lovers / spouses and other important individuals who could shape your life.
So don't view college as simply the path to a pre-selected profession. It can help you choose the right path for a career and much more.
Cheers, Terry
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 6:40pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (6 FEB 2011 5:51pm)
However, there is more to higher education than just getting a degree needed to qualify for a specifc position. It helps broaden your perspective of the world and expands your overall knowledge base while promoting self-reliance / independence. It also exposes you to a diverse set of people including potential mentors, close friends / lovers / spouses and other important individuals who could shape your life.
Everything you stated here is what I got out of 4 years in military, probably even more so.
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 6:51pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Ivinia (6 FEB 2011 6:40pm)
Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (6 FEB 2011 5:51pm)
However, there is more to higher education than just getting a degree needed to qualify for a specifc position. It helps broaden your perspective of the world and expands your overall knowledge base while promoting self-reliance / independence. It also exposes you to a diverse set of people including potential mentors, close friends / lovers / spouses and other important individuals who could shape your life.
Everything you stated here is what I got out of 4 years in military, probably even more so.
Four years in the military is without doubt an education. However, it's not for everyone.
Cheers, Terry
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 7:28pm |
| Deleted User | Re: Is college necessary?
Reply #16 - Today at 12:51pm .
Terry -
As mentioned already by several others, a college degree is of course required for many professions. But there are countless good jobs that don't require degrees. In fact, for many jobs, paying a fortune in college tuition, etc. is mainly a waste of money.
However, there is more to higher education than just getting a degree needed to qualify for a specifc position. It helps broaden your perspective of the world and expands your overall knowledge base while promoting self-reliance / independence. It also exposes you to a diverse set of people including potential mentors, close friends / lovers / spouses and other important individuals who could shape your life.
So don't view college as simply the path to a pre-selected profession. It can help you choose the right path for a career and much more.
Cheers, Terry
VERY well put, and IOMO a VERY important point.
I intended to post something like that a while ago but got caught up in another thread and then forgot.
College education is essential in some fields of work but not in others. However, it is extremely good in expanding one's mind, horizons, logical thinking a expressing & writing etc. no matter what job work or profession you eventually get into.
And these days, everybody has to be prepared to switch occupations twice or more in one lifetime.
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| 6 FEB 2011 at 7:48pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
That's right, Len. Changing occupations and industries is becoming a virtual certainty for most people as the world's economy shifts and technology opens new doors while closing others rapidly all across the spectrum of jobs / professions.
Just as important IMO is being a well-rounded person with diverse interests. That can make life so much richer no matter where you reside or what you do for a living. It makes you a better parent, mentor, friend, associate and member of almost any community.
People with a narrow set of interests / experiences / skills are much more limited in life and it's harder for them to change directions quickly if the need ever arises. It also limts the number of things that make them happy. That's why trying new things and taking a few risks is so important for young people. It's a pretty good way to live for us older folks too.
Cheers, Terry
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