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| 26 JAN 2011 at 12:34pm | |
walshSorcerer Apprentice  Posts : 384 Joined: 15 DEC 2010 Status : Offline | Ooh, this is a really tough question. It's a beautiful game, technically perfect with stunning graphics and brilliant voice acting. However when you put it side-by-side against those four games I think it falls just short of being an 'epic' game. The reason I would say is the scale of it. Those other four games had intercontinental journeys, monumental events and intrigue on a grand scale with multiple storylines being weaved as you play. Lives were being changed by your actions and you really felt as though you were having an impact on the world. The story in Gray Matter is just too close to home. It's set in one city and essentially revolves around a 'whodunit' mystery. True, you play as two characters but there is one mystery to solve and they both work towards that goal. The structure and characters are straight from a typical murder mystery. Not much is at stake besides a desire to unravel the mystery and help someone you care about. I think that if the paranormal, neuroscience angle had been expanded upon then I might have viewed it differently. Early in the game I thought it would take a more adventurous approach, going further into dreams and perception and perhaps involving a vast internal journey of the characters. But to my surprise, it actually veered towards a rather conventional conclusion. There were some unanswered questions but the central mystery was wrapped up with a rather simple explanation, and the sense of wonder we had in Syberia and Gabriel Knight was less profound than it could have been. So no, not quite an epic game but I think still a great one. There are few game makers other than Jensen able to make something with such a personal and emotional approach. |
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| 26 JAN 2011 at 3:15pm | |
TravellerGuild Master  Posts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Well, firstly one has to look at the definition of "epic" . "Noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style: Homer's Iliad is an epic poem." - that is the very strict dictionary definition, but when we talk about epic novels, films or games, it usually means that it tells a story that takes place on a grand scale and involves heroic deeds (which usually translates as "saving the world" ). ...for instance, War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy would be an good example, because it spans many years and historical events as seen from the POV of several families and people. In the sphere of fantasy, Tolkiens' "Lord of the Rings" would be epic, because it, too, spans generations and entire nations - its a story that concerns the entire known world, but it can also be seen as an 'epic' in the sense of the dictionary definition that I mentioned, because it follows the great deeds of a few heroes. RPG's are often 'epic' in this sense, because you have to save the entire world from some 'ancient evil' or from destruction. Therefore I think it is a bit harder to class an AG as 'epic'. After all, the story in Syberia, even if it spans continents, is more a personal story, and only mainly concerns a handful of people, and the fate of the world does not rest in their hands. To me, the only AG mentioned above that would then truly fall into the category of 'epic' would therefore be The Longest Journey. Regarding Gray Matter... well, who knows if this is only one in a series of games in which we find that the Daedalus Club is actually bent on World Domination? ..and that David and Sam have to defeat them in order to "save the world"? The latter would then make it 'epic', not so? However, I have to agree with Walsh that the game, as is, would appear to be more on a personal scale, as are the Gabriel Knight games before them, especially when each game is seen in isolation, and not when taking into account it's role in the series. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 26 JAN 2011 at 3:39pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor  Posts : 6694 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . I wouldn't classify the individual games in the Broken Sword or Gabriel Knight series as epic. Perhaps Syberia 1 and 2 combined as they span a large geographic area comprised of highly diverse settings / cultures and they are centered on a story about mammoths that spans eons. Even then, the protagonist isn't really saving the world, just her dignity and the lifelong dream of one old man. Cheers, Terry |
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| 26 JAN 2011 at 3:49pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ohdannyboy11 (26 JAN 2011 10:41am) Yes, there is a discussion thread for it here, but that thread has huge spoilers that aren't even covered in spoiler tags, so I would strongly suggest you wait until you have finished the game before you check out that thread. Otherwise, hope you're enjoying the game. * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 26 JAN 2011 at 6:49pm | |
| Deleted User | Hehehe Trav I agree with you completely - "Epic" was a bad choice. I thought around for a suitable word for a really outstanding oeuvre… and the one I chose was inappropriate. I thought of "Blockbuster", "Milestone", and 1 or 2 others which also didn't convey my meaning. I think that I meant the following:- Hundreds of adventures have come & gone during the past say 20 years – some better, some worse. But there are only a handful which are repeatedly held up as models of this that or the other – the rest (Dear prince) are silence! The 4 I mentioned are in that category being quoted over & over again in posts, reviews, articles, etc. What I meant was "Is Gray Matter" a superlative game as one might have expected from that brilliant game-master (mistress ) Jane Jensen? Will it be quoted as a prime example of a brilliant piece of work in 5 or 10 years time? P.S. How is your eye? |
| 26 JAN 2011 at 8:11pm | |
Terry PenrodGrand InquisitorPosts : 6694 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline | . In that case, perhaps a better word would be elite. Cheers, Terry |
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| 26 JAN 2011 at 10:08pm | |
| Deleted User | Terry is an excellent wordsmith – “elite” would have been more appropriate. And Traveller is an expert on comparative literature = as well as other things including computer games, |
| 26 JAN 2011 at 10:46pm | |
InlandAZGuild Master Posts : 5587 Joined: 4 MAY 2007 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ohdannyboy11 (26 JAN 2011 10:08pm) As true as that may be, I for one have a great deal of respect for your impression of the game. So do pen one up for us Len. What? |
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| 27 JAN 2011 at 12:26am | |
| Deleted User | Since I am only a fairly short way into the game as yet, I reserve the right to change my opinions when I“ve finished it!! Many games are good from almost all aspects – and some are mediocre from most points of view. IMHO Grey Matter is somewhat rare in combining many superb aspects together with several very negative ones! The story (so far) is gripping. The characters are interesting, very very well ‘drawn’, The voice acting is about the best I have experienced for a very very long time – the main 2 characters are magnificent and everyone of the very many supporting actors/actresses to date is top notch. The locales and general atmosphere are imaginative and original – maybe particularly so for folk born & bred in UK. There are no bugs, gameplay glitches, freezes etc. If these praises applied to everything in the game, I think that it would be elite/blockbuster/milestone and even epic! However, and unfortunately in my opinion (maybe only?!) there is too long a list of drawbacks… some of which are listed below:- ~~~~ Much of the time the hotspots are so crowded together that when you intend to click on one you inadvertently click on an adjacent one by mistake. It's very annoying ~~~~ Characters are often nearly or completely invisible on even a large monitor. For example – In one scene, 5 Oxford students are in one scene on the grounds of the colleges. You can't see the faces of any of them, and at least 2 are no bigger than pin-heads and another 2 are not too greatly better!! ~~~~ The captions and much of the ample game texts (not the subtitles) are in very small and unclear fonts, ~~~~ The viewing and particularly the using of inventory items on the game are is both unintuitive and cumbersome. ~~~~ The general graphics are not crystal clear, and I am not very fond of the overall sepia colouring - although that may suit others! ~~~~ Some of the jumps of logic are hard to swallow. e.g. An important document is hidden in a box submerged in a pond. When clicking on the lid the top opens revealing of all things a strip of paper – hold it, not ordinary paper but LITMUS paper which presumably has to be removed in order to access the contents inside. You might think that you need something acidic or alkaline – but it transpires that you simply need a drop of ordinary water!! ~~~~ A minor evil, at least for some gamers (?) and maybe only annoying to me personally, is a mingy 20 only save slots. There are probably more drawbacks – and virtues – which I haven't mentioned here. |
| 27 JAN 2011 at 6:49pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Sadly, I partly agree with most of your criticisms, Len. Keep in mind though, that those are the fault of the developers and not of the writer. I've also noted that Jane generally has started going with the 'casual game' fad, since she's recently participated in the making of a casual game or two, and that influence, I personally think, is to be seen partly in some of the puzzle design of GM the magic tricks). As for the developers, they'd probably argue that the cutscenes are meant to be "artistic", but I personally think there's a bit of financial cornercutting in evidence there? Oh well, I suppose AG producers have to do what they can to stay financially afloat in the risky market you have these days.... :-/ * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 27 JAN 2011 at 9:12pm | |
| Deleted User | Traveller – You almost took the words out of my mouth. I have no actual knowledge or facts but I too feel that the flaws in the game are not due to Jane Jensen who I almost revere Others may know about the ups & downs of the 7 year birth pangs of Gray Matter – I know nothing other than developers were changed in mid-stream and delays took place, more than once. I feel all along that budgetary limitations caused Jane Jensen to accept inferior technicalities which she would have liked to improve &/or avoid. My ignorant gut feeling makes me feel so very sorry for her, and that in the end she agreed to get the game released warts and all rather than have it die stillbirth. P.S. Once again (if it's not too upsetting – How's your eye?) |
| 27 JAN 2011 at 10:36pm | |
loobilooPrivate Detective  Posts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | Having played all 3 Gabriel Knight games I think Gray Matter is getting a little more criticism than it deserves. The strength of the GK games for me was in the story, voice acting & music & having anticipated Gray Matter for 7 years found that JJ did deliver everything I wanted & I was not disappointed. I wasn't crazy about the style of the cut scenes or the magic trick sequences - this may have been down to financial contraints & pressure to appeal to a wider market respectively or maybe JJ was just being experimental. All of the GK games are different in style & none of them are perfect - especially the last one which has a dreadful interface but they are still superb games that stand out today none-the-less. Gray Matter is a cut above many other games IMO but on a par with a handful of others & needs a sequel to 'elevate' it! |
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| 28 JAN 2011 at 1:17am | |
| Deleted User | Gray Matter is a cut above many other games IMO -------- I DO agree with that, and would recommend everybody to play it . I see that it is now being released in USA – I hope at a (more) reasonable price in order to gain as large a possible audience. Yes – the story does not fall short of JJ's other masterpieces and the voice acting is (to date) universally no less than magnificent. However, due to those quite serious technical faults, some of which I have mentioned, unfortunately I'm afraid I would not include it in my personal "Hall of fame" or "20 best ever adventure games". |
| 28 JAN 2011 at 7:23am | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Oh, I would say that this game is definitely one of my favorites up there and almost on par with the Gabriel Knight games, Still Life and SH The Awakened. In spite of it's few technical shortcomings, I think the positives are enough in my book for it to earn a very special place on my game shelf. Keep in mind though, that for me, story, characters and atmosphere rate very highly, and as far as those elements are concerned, Gray Matter delivers for me. Originally Posted By ohdannyboy11 (27 JAN 2011 9:12pm) Actually very OT, so I apologise, but since Mr X insists: Sadly, I keep having an irritating grey spot in front of the left one, Len, and the eye specialist said I'd better get used to it, since it will take a long time to go away, but at least I can still see, which is good, right? ..and how are your eyes these days? Since you are still posting, I presume you are making do and compensating adequately for whatever degenaration your eyes have gone through? * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 28 JAN 2011 at 1:35pm | |
| Deleted User | Re: Is “Gray Matter” an epic game…… Two minds with an identical thought! For me as well, the story and characters including the interest they generate are by far the most important factor in Adventure games. I only vary from you in the overall brilliance in Gray Matter. If only the interface, graphics and general 'technology' were good instead of pretty poor, I would give the game an A+ and oust some game (with great difficulty) and shove it into my "20 best ever". This wouldn't be easy since my list contains old classics such as Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones' Atlantis, Monkey Islands, Kings Quests, Gabriel Knights, Tex Murpheys, Longest Journey, Syberias, and others. As it is, it is still very high up on my list of most memorable games, but with some reservations which I don't feel about the abovementioned. I agree that hardly any game is 100% immaculate and without one single blemish. But IMO Gray Matter suffers from a few technical shortcomings which cause some aggravation – particularly the extremely bad hotspot mechanism, the poor inventory manipulation, and the bad text labels which in some cases are almost illegible. A pity --- but paraphrasing Joe.E Brown, "Well. nothing's perfect"! |
| 28 JAN 2011 at 6:58pm | |
| Deleted User | Sadly, I keep having an irritating grey spot in front of the left one, Len, and the eye specialist said I'd better get used to it, since it will take a long time to go away, but at least I can still see, which is good, right? Very sorry to hear that. I know that internal eye troubles are very worrying at the least and can also be frightening. In your case particularly so since you play a lot of games, read extensively, and I think view a lot of films & TV etc – all very positive occupations. I sincerely hope that in time the grey spot will get less and preferably disappear. My spy's reports on Mr. X inform me as follows:- He is totally blind in his left eye – even a searchlight on it doesn't penetrate the blackness. The vision in his right eye has been constantly decreasing for about 2 years now due to macula degeneration (a common ailment particularly for the elderly!). It's difficult to quantify but he probably has about 20% vision in that eye at present. Although obviously limiting and often frustrating it is thankfully very far from the end of the world. Being 86 years old (2 days ago) he has seen so many of his friends and relatives pass away that he is grateful to be able to be alert and able to enjoy life. He can go shopping outside his apartment alone – although his 81 year old wife tries to stop him. He watches TV (in moderation as always) and although features of characters are almost indistinguishable and screen text impossible to read he enjoys really good films and particularly documentaries. A year ago he was able to read with the help of a magnifying glass, but now it is pretty well out of the question. The computer is a VERY great help! As you know, you can magnify almost all text on screen. He can read OK when turning up text from 10 or 12 point to 24 or 26 – it is clumsy since he has to use a slider for each line, or obtain just 3 or even only 2 large words per line. It slows him down greatly – but he's pleased to be able to read at all --- these days since so many newspaper reports and Google articles are online, he can magnify them and keep abreast of current affairs. All in all --- he feels extremely lucky to be alive and 'kicking' and living at home with a nice family and friends. Apologies for going on at such length and once again hoping that your eye trouble will diminish ASAP. |
| 28 JAN 2011 at 7:14pm | |
TravellerGuild MasterPosts : 4040 Joined: 3 JUL 2010 Location: US Status : Offline | Yeah, we should actually have taken this to the Off Topic forum, but anyway, I'm sorry to hear of Mr X's troubles and salute his courage in remaining postive despite the visual setbacks, which as you say, can of course be very upsetting if you were used to being able to see well in the past. Oh, and happy birthday! [smiley=beer.gif] Salut! (..but if we continue in this vein we should really rather go to OT ) In any case, thanks for the good wishes, Mr X - I hope your "good eye" lasts the course for you, and wish for you that it won't degenerate any further... sadly aging can be cruel, isn't it... * * * Just call me Trav. * * * “Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..." |
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| 28 JAN 2011 at 10:10pm | |
| Deleted User | Back to the topic!!! And apropos the game's puzzles:- One of the extremely important aspects of Adventure games is its puzzles. So far there is no mention of them in this thread – but there is a mention in another Gray Matter thread here. puzzles in GM were interesting but I can imagine that some players may not find them challenging enough? As one of the veteran adventure-players here I would like to say that ……. On the whole the puzzles are certainly very sufficiently taxing for my poor old gray-matter (which is maybe turning somewhat black )! |
| 29 JAN 2011 at 8:50pm | |
loobilooPrivate DetectivePosts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline | ohdannyboy, I think I said that! I was able to work out most of the puzzles but did need a nudge here and there on occasion from a walkthrough. There wasn't any great complexity within them, which I found enjoyable, but I've played a handful of games where the puzzles have been so challenging to me I've ended up having to refer to a walkthrough frequently to progress. This is not a fun way to play a game but the players that are able to get their head around the puzzles in those games I feel would possibly find those in GM less challenging - that is what I meant! |
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| 30 JAN 2011 at 7:42pm | |
New WolfboySpace Cadet  Posts : 133 Joined: 27 JUL 2010 Status : Online | I have only just heard that this game is now released. I'll be picking it up as soon as possible. Again I'm worried that it's had such a quiet release. Still, I can't wait to try out the first Jensen game since GK3 |
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| 30 JAN 2011 at 8:50pm | |
| Deleted User | To date it's a pretty expensive game. I join the folk who say it's a good one on the whole - although with some flaws that cause it not to be magnificent. But as suggested on a different thread in this forum, why not download the free playable demo and see if it's your cup of cha |
| 2 FEB 2011 at 2:02pm | |
DonaJourneyman  Posts : 801 Joined: 19 MAR 2005 Status : Offline | Oh, it's a great game, but I wouldn't call it epic/revolutionary/a milestone etc. It's simply enjoyable. The plot is good, but the characters are what really, really made me love it. And the beautiful atmospheric environments, of course. As for the puzzles, they were a bit too easy to me. The only 'hard' ones are the ending puzzles for each Daedalus Club hunt, the first one had me stumped for a while. However, I don't see it as a flaw, as story draws you in enough that you want to just keep moving forward instead of trying to figure out whether you need to make a key imprint on a bar of a soap or not |
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| 3 MAR 2011 at 6:01am | |
eaglesIntergalactic Janitor Posts : 62 Joined: 19 MAR 2008 Status : Online | yea, not epic as I hoped for all the hype... maybe it was too hyped and we expected the world. GK's were all fantastic.. but gray matter.. started slow .. too slow.... and then they rushed the ending and it went all chaotic for me.. it needed just one more chapter... to close off everything. blue tiles?? what was that all about??? |
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| 6 MAR 2011 at 6:38am | |
AkhillesPrivate Detective Posts : 581 Joined: 21 JUL 2003 Location: US Status : Offline | I've been enjoying it so far, great visuals, voiceovers, story. And, as usual... stuck. Mid-chapter 2. Drives me CRAZY when I need information the character doesn't have, the library in the game doesn't let her read books. ARGH! You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here. |
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