| 15 MAR 2011 at 6:28am |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (15 MAR 2011 2:18am)
Well, in the demo, I haven't had a chance to feel that *emotional*
I cried during Dreamfall a few times, often because it just seemed so real and personal and so prophetic about the future. Nothing during Gray Matter to approached that in the demo so far for me.
Still, I guess I'll try the full game. I am firmly a heterosexual who is fully comfortable with allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect me. Hey, I'm a storyteller (a novelist) and love nothing more than a fantasy story that connects to universal emotions. This is how games, books, movies, etc., connect to us all.
So, I'll give it a try.......but to be honest, (if this wasn't Jane) what I've seen so far is an immediate reject.
Case in point, compare Gray Matter to Sherlock Holmes vs Jack the Ripper.
Well, tbh, Gray Matter and Sherlock Holmes vs Jack the Ripper are two completely different games in a different sub-genre.
Whereas to me JTR falls more into the 'horror/detective' genre, Gray Matter is more of a personal story.
The poignant parts come towards the middle and end of the game, and I very much doubt that you would have touched on them in the demo already.
Why don't you just approach the game with an open mind, and give it a try? I already know that the cutscenes will put you off, but they're only a small part of the game, after all.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 6:05pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | What is with the linking of emotionality, gender and sexual orientation? :-?
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 7:08pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Probably to do with those old stereotypes like "men don't (aren't supposed to) cry" . But perhaps we shouldn't go there,
...wait, I'm outta here.. :-X
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 7:18pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Well, I think few of us want a protracted discussion on this issue in this particular thread - or at all.
I think there were a couple of stereotypical assumptions here, but I am okay with leaving it at that. Perhaps I misread something.
All I know is that in my opinion, emotions, gender and sexual orientation are independent factors.
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 7:54pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | I apologise if I started to move the thread in the direction of these assumptions, although there are games that are generally viewed as more 'female friendly' and other games, like shooters in general, as 'guy games'. I think that was part of what made me say "and will possibly be a tad bit more appealing to" but please note the word "possibly" and the diminutive "tad".
I get quite frustrated with makers of RPG's when they cater only for a male audience, and go out from the assumption that only males, or mainly males play their games (and they don't care about the females who do in fact play their games. )
Of course, Gray Matter is not gender-biased at all, since it has both a male and a female lead.
So once again, apologies for suggesting that it might be different.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 8:53pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | It is certainly true that the demographics of some genres favour either men or women. I get what you meant now!
Speaking of entertainment in general, I know I look for at least some emotionally meaningful component in anything I spend a lot of time with, and I manage to find it in everything from Star Trek to Moulin Rouge.
The emotional content can be a subtext or even a sheer projection, or it can be the lifeblood of the whole thing...
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 9:45pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
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Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (15 MAR 2011 2:18am)
Well, in the demo, I haven't had a chance to feel that *emotional*
I cried during Dreamfall a few times, often because it just seemed so real and personal and so prophetic about the future. Nothing during Gray Matter to approached that in the demo so far for me.
Still, I guess I'll try the full game. I am firmly a heterosexual who is fully comfortable with allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect me. Hey, I'm a storyteller (a novelist) and love nothing more than a fantasy story that connects to universal emotions. This is how games, books, movies, etc., connect to us all.
So, I'll give it a try.......but to be honest, (if this wasn't Jane) what I've seen so far is an immediate reject.
Case in point, compare Gray Matter to Sherlock Holmes vs Jack the Ripper.
Having played both games mentioned which are completely different in approach I would put them on a par with each other. Both have excellent stories - JTR launches almost straight away with the plot, moves quite quickly, it has an intriguing story, good puzzles & gives you a good insight into the personalities of particularly Watson & Holmes which I think add to the depth.
Gray Matter progresses a lot more subtly - I think you have to persevere with it and in doing so will gradually find out more & more about the main characters as you slowly unravel 'the plot', also there is a sub-plot interwoven. I finished this game which was complete in itself but did leave a potential opening for a sequel - I'd love there to be one!
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| 15 MAR 2011 at 11:54pm |
DonaJourneyman
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Status : Offline |
It's just that females appreciate scenes like this
Spoiler Alert[img]http://i.min.us/imbT5Q.jpg[/img]
in a different way that heterosexual males do.
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| 18 MAR 2011 at 1:48am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Who cares about sexual orientation? 3rd person--OMG, yuk. Actually, I like a choice. oes the full game offer a choice?
_________________
Exercise your vision.
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| 18 MAR 2011 at 7:59am |
DonaJourneyman
Posts : 801
Joined: 19 MAR 2005
Status : Offline | I don't, I was just echoing what other have said in the thread. Sorry if my post came off rude, it was meant to be a joke since the game is full of scenes of half-naked David D:
Nope, no choices in this game.
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| 18 MAR 2011 at 9:58pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I'm completely baffled by some of the posts referring to sexual orientation of players of the game - have I read this right? Is it relevant? As for stereotypical characters - I don't think either Sam or David fall into that category - both of them are unusual & fascinating. There are some stereo typical characters in the game but it wouldn't be very realistic if there weren't as the majority of the population fit that.
The screenshots you posted of David Dona were lovely, but they're in context to a bereaved man & I can't see why any male that likes adventure games should be made to feel that this is a woman's game & don't understand why it was even said?
I would have to agree that the game is very linear but I didn't mind that as it was such a good story
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 8:03am |
TravellerGuild Master
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Location: US
Status : Offline | Oi, how many times must I still say that I apologise for saying that the game would probably appeal to females more than most games out there would? Obviously my meaning was taken up wrongly, and I never would have posted that if I had known it would cause such a furore.
I had not said this to gamers/males in general, but specifically in conversation with Halcyon, after he had said:
Is the game as juvenile as the demo? Man, I couldn't wait to leave.
And the static artistry is great, but the animation is stiff and unemotional.
However, since the point is being belabored so much, I do think that even in the adventure genre - (and let's not even talk about shooters and war games) that members of both genders (how did sexual otientation ever creep into the discussion? :-? ) would be able to identify with the game better than, for instance, Alter Ego, where I found myself looking in on a male's unsympathetic thoughts about a female.
Since I play a wide range of games, including strategy, RPG, a bit of action and the occasional shooter (which I'm really not good at), - looking at that entire range, I found Grey Matter to be one of the games where I felt less alienated by dint of my gender than I tend to feel in many games. (This is not to say that males would not equally enjoy the game, since it is pretty balanced, I would say, since you get to play a male protagonist as well. Perhaps the fact that he was playing a teenage girl in the first chapter, is what made it feel a bit juvenille to Halcyon? However, this of course gets balanced out later, when you play the rather older Dr Styles. )
I also said the things I said in that post, in the context of knowing that Halcyon also tends to play more action-oriented games, and in particular an RPG series (the latest two Fallout games) where I did not feel at home with the graphic violence. So perhaps I should simply have said: This game is a far cry from Fallout 3 and 4, Halcyon. " [smiley=shrug.gif]
Now - if you're going to tell me that females enjoy playing graphically gorily violent games as much as males do, I beg you to look at demographics first. Even I, who enjoy a modicum of violence in my games, don't enjoy seeing people I shoot/attack perpetually blow up in a cloud of blood and gore with heads and body parts flying all over the show, and even bespattering myself with blood. ...but that is perhaps nothing to do with gender, and so I should not have brought it into the discussion.
In any case, the Gray Matter thread is not the place to discuss this, so perhaps we should take it to the "Hot Spot" forum.
Also, Halcyon did then subsequently clarify that he does also enjoy games with a more personal 'story', but that it was rather aspects such as 1st person viewpoint and choices and free exploration that matters to him in a game.
Loobiloo, re Dona's pictures, I think that Dona was perhaps just expressing her personal appreciation of those images of David, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Spoiler AlertRemember that the particular cutscene was one of the cutscenes portraying Angela's spying on David. I definitely personally think that Angela harboured romantic feelings towards David, since she even slept in the bed next to him - in any case, that was my interpretation of the situation.
I know there are other interpretations, such as that Angela simply hated David for not giving her more attention, and therefore slept next to him and fiddled with his wife's clothes to make him think that the wife's ghost was around and thereby drive him a bit nutty.
In any case, can we please, please rather take the male/female game preference thing to the Hot Spot rather? I'll even go and create a thread there for this purpose.
Hey, btw - why are people who have not played the game looking at spoiler threads? Have we no other GM threads where they can ask about the game?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 10:20am |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Traveller already explained what she meant with her comment about the emotionality of the story and her own take on the possible appeal to people of different genders. The matter of sexual orientation was brought up by Halcyon with this statement:
Originally Posted By TAS (15 MAR 2011 2:18am)
... I am firmly a heterosexual who is fully comfortable with allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect me. ...
Perhaps this was not his intention, but the implication seemed to be that ordinarily, "allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect" one is somehow more typical of non-heterosexuals. Otherwise I can see no point to the "I am firmly a heterosexual" "disclaimer".
So in short, Traveller first seemed to be linking emotionality to females and then Halcyon, as a male comfortable with emotional content (like I am), seemed to 1) generally accept the link between emotionality and females, but (being male himself) 2) imply that the ability in a male to appreciate emotional content was somehow linked to their sexual orientation - since he made it a point to mention his own. (The fact that he is male was implicit, and could be seen by everyone by looking at the gender sign to the left of the post.)
Now, this may have been a misreading on my part in the first place. If so, I apologise. I simply could not understand how else to interpret the comment I quoted in the context where it was said. But I agree with Traveller that anyone who wants to continue this discussion can do so elsewhere. We are now talking about a very general issue that is not specifically related to Gray Matter.
However, I believe Halcyon deserves the last word on this issue in this topic, if he wants to say something more. Again, I regret if there was any misunderstanding on my part. I simply did not feel comfortable about giving silent assent to what seemed like stereotypical assumptions by not questioning them. I will now shut up about this.
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 11:47am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Thank you for clarifying, Simo.
Yes the "flow" of the conversation and how it ended up in this thread has been pretty unfortunate. I don't think anybody meant any offence either way. Sometimes things come out a bit differently than one had really meant them, I think. A kind of "stream of consciousness" form of communicating that one forgets to check on how it may "come across". I truly think that Halcyon did not mean any harm or offence, or to imply that a hetero male should act in a certain way, -in fact, probably to refute the idea, rather.
In any case, I think that people in this day and age should not have to feel sensitive about sexual orientation either way. It really does not matter, you are still you, whatever your S/O is, an individual that does not have to fit into any little preconceived 'box' . (..and that goes whether you are heterosexual or otherwise - just because you're hetero you don't have to act in a "certain way" any more than otherwise. )
But let's take it elsewhere..
In any case, I also replied in part to your post above, here.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 2:10pm |
DonaJourneyman
Posts : 801
Joined: 19 MAR 2005
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Simo_Sakari (19 MAR 2011 10:20am)
Traveller already explained what she meant with her comment about the emotionality of the story and her own take on the possible appeal to people of different genders. The matter of sexual orientation was brought up by Halcyon with this statement:
Originally Posted By TAS (15 MAR 2011 2:18am)
... I am firmly a heterosexual who is fully comfortable with allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect me. ...
Perhaps this was not his intention, but the implication seemed to be that ordinarily, "allowing an honest and emotional experience to affect" one is somehow more typical of non-heterosexuals. Otherwise I can see no point to the "I am firmly a heterosexual" "disclaimer".
Thank you. His statement is what sparked my comment, it wasn't meant to be too serious and I'm sorry if it came off wrong and offended someone.
Re: the pictures, I just think it's ridiculous how many shirtless scenes there were.[s] Not that I'm complaining[/s]. And I agree with Traveler's first theory about Angela, that's exactly what I thought it happened
...to get back to the topic, I just changed my phone alarm to Street Smart Sam melody I love the soundtrack so much.
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 2:40pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Thanks for the clarifications Traveller & Simo. I'm sorry if my post came across as having a 'pop' at anyone, it really wasn't intended & more of a comment on the way the thread was going! I only wrote a few lines which sit amongst much longer posts yet they seemed to have been 'jumped on'. I don't see anything wrong with Dona's pictures either Traveller as I appreciated them too & realise the context of them within the game!
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 4:55pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Thank you for your clarifications as well, Dona, loobiloo and Traveller!
I never felt criticised or anything. In fact, I was sort of dreading reading the responses because I was afraid my own messages might have been seen that way. But everyone has been great.
I agree the thread just got a bit confusing with people reacting to different things in each other's posts - and again, I apologise for my part in that.
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:01pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Simo_Sakari (19 MAR 2011 4:55pm)
. And the scene ties in well with David's sense-related puzzles, since it involves or suggests all the senses: sight, sound, smell, taste (the water on David's lips) and touch.
Nice observation there, Simo!
Heheh, well, I appreciated the shower scene in a few ways, actually. Firstly, it made you feel rather more intimate with David, and it also occurred to me how vulnerable a person is while he is showering. You are naked, after all, and that always implies vulnerability. Also, the sound of the water tends to drown out other sounds - you are like you are in your own little enclosed world while you are in the shower.
So firstly, it made me see David as even more vulnerable with his grief that he carries along with him, but - when he heard and saw a glimpse of Angela, that vulnerability also seemed emphasised in the way that one is more vulnerable to danger - recall the Psycho shower scene - I mean, that scene is just classic because the victim is at his/her most vulnerable in the shower...
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:08pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | Sorry, I ended up editing out the part of my post you quoted, Traveller!
LOL, I am a klutz. :
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:10pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Hahaha ..and as Murphy would have it, I edited my own post by adding more about the shower scene to it! [smiley=cheesy.gif]
Anyway, I think it's rather a pity you took it out- I thought it a was nice contribution to the topic.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:23pm |
Simo Sakari AaltonenSpace Cadet
Posts : 130
Joined: 23 APR 2004
Status : Offline | [smiley=laughing.gif] Soon no one will be able to follow this thread! But thank you for saving the main point of what I wrote...
The Psycho link never occurred to me before, but it should have - especially since I quite like not just the original, but the first two sequels as well. True, David was quite vulnerable there. He seemed exhausted and his guard was down (dropping the soap and all).
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:24pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | And to add to my observations in my previous post about David seeming so vulnerable in the shower - I personally think Jane Jensen seems to have knack for creating a sympathetic view of a male character. I mean - Gabriel was by no means an angel, and yet there was a certain pathos about him, a touch of vulnerability which tended to make one feel sympathetic towards him. Ya know what I mean?
..and although David Styles is a more sombre character than Gabriel, I found that later on in the game, he tended to elicit a similar sympathetic response from me - in fact an even stronger one - I actually felt like crying at certain points.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 5:29pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 5:24pm)
Gabriel was by no means an angel, and yet there was a certain pathos about him, a touch of vulnerability which tended to make one feel sympathetic towards him. Ya know what I mean?
I couldn't agree more. Gabriel is all brashness and bravado, but he wakes up every morning in a cold sweat, screaming. You can't help but sympathize with him...
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 19 MAR 2011 at 6:01pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (19 MAR 2011 5:01pm)
Originally Posted By Simo_Sakari (19 MAR 2011 4:55pm)
. And the scene ties in well with David's sense-related puzzles, since it involves or suggests all the senses: sight, sound, smell, taste (the water on David's lips) and touch.
Nice observation there, Simo!
I completely agree but found it uncomfortable within the context of the game as it was a scene viewed by Angela & as you said Traveller
..... it also occurred to me how vulnerable a person is while he is showering. You are naked, after all, and that always implies vulnerability. Also, the sound of the water tends to drown out other sounds - you are like you are in your own little enclosed world while you are in the shower. It was the ultimate invasion of privacy - no-one would expect a stranger to be able to spy on you while you were showering or engaged in any other intimate act so it was quite shocking that Angela had gone to that extreme.
I think that Gabriel Knight was a very engaging & enigmatic character from the beginning of all of the games, the voice acting helped a lot in 1 & 3 & the handsome actor in 2, also he had a good 'foil' in Grace who made me laugh so much. David Styles was very much more of a character that grew on me slowly throughout Gray Matter, I ended up really liking him & I think there is the potential for the chemistry between him & Sam to 'ignite' in future games if any are made.
I think this game had as much depth if not more than the GK games - it was essentially about 3 obsessive people whose lives became intertwined with each other.
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