| 13 JUL 2011 at 2:09pm |
markornikovJourneyman
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Posts : 1301
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (13 JUL 2011 1:04pm)
Less skills in Skyrim (but don't worry, they don't want to dumb things down...)
"What happens in Oblivion is you start the game, play for three hours, and then think 'I want to start over, I chose wrong.'
That happened on my first playthrough, too many skills to choose from and i ended up spreading skill points evenly, which makes the game really hard :-/
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 2:31pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I think they should properly introduce the skills, give a better description of what they do, and have a better tutorial and make sure that there are no "wrong" choices, instead of removing skills (and as an extension options) from the game. The amount of options that you had when building your character were parts of what made both Daggerfall & Morrowind so good (daggerfall did have problems with the "no wrong skills" thing though, as there were plenty of skills in daggerfall that were rather pointless, in particular the language skills)
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 4:13pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | They also confirmed in the recent fan Q&A that armor is combined into fewer pieces yet AGAIN. Now we can't even choose seperate chest/leg pieces, they are one solid piece.
Sigh, less customization is the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be going for, not less.
Morrowind you could mix and match even pauldrons (shoulder pieces),then Oblivion they were one and you couldn't, now it seems even less choice for you.
They aren't dumbing it down though.
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 5:25pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | The thing is, that if you're reasonably experienced with RPG's you should have a good idea of more or less which class suits you - I know already that I hate monks (unarmored and barefisted ) and thieves, and rangers that use bow and arrow; that I like the sturdiness of a warrior and the fun and complexity of a battlemage: so I really liked that both Morrowind and Oblivion offered the latter, and it was offered as a pre-made class too.
I liked that one could mix and match your skills in any way you wanted to make a custom class, but Markonikov, you could also, if you weren't surer, simply choose one of the custom classes, like battlemage, or warrior, or thief etc. that they made up for you if you didn't know the game well enough yet to make up your own class. Though I admit that sadly they might have included skills in these pre-made classes that you don't like using.
Anyway, one has to accept that if you play an RPG for the first time, you might accidentally pick useless skills.
Look at me, in the Witcher 2, I chose "deflecting arrows" as a skill, and ended up not having to deflect a single arrow in the entire game, due to the story path I ended up choosing. [smiley=doh.gif]
Still, to me one of the biggest attractions of the TES system has been the customizeability (is that a word? : if not, consider it one of my own made-up words- a custom word ) of the classes.
So I decry the fact that they have made even less skills/talents available with every game and now Skyrim as well. I feel that letting the player choose his skills as you progress with the game, instead of all at the start, similar to the Fallout 3 system with perks and so on (which they say the implemented in Skyrim) would have sufficiently solved the kind of problem that Markonikov had, without having to actually take some more skills away yet again.
Oh, and btw, Morrowind was my first RPG ever, so I didn't have a clue, and Mwind has even more skills I do admit I restarted 3 times - but that was mainly because of choosing the wrong race. I didn't know at first that beast races can't wear boots or helmet, so I had to ditch my big kitty cat, (can't go w/out boots, especially if there's the Boots of blinding speed and the Boots of the Apostle to be had and my Altmer mage died soon after two rats attacked him - so I realized he was far to flimsy if I was going to become anything at all in the fighter's guild.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 6:38pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (13 JUL 2011 4:13pm)
They also confirmed in the recent fan Q&A that armor is combined into fewer pieces yet AGAIN. Now we can't even choose seperate chest/leg pieces, they are one solid piece.
Sigh, less customization is the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be going for, not less.
Morrowind you could mix and match even pauldrons (shoulder pieces),then Oblivion they were one and you couldn't, now it seems even less choice for you.
They aren't dumbing it down though.
Yes, and note that not only have skills become gradually less, but so have your choices regarding armor and weapons. Oblivion already culled the medium armor class, and quite a few of the weapons too.
One thing might be cool, though ( and I really, really hope this will turn out the way I anticipate it) ..-and that might be the introduction of dual-wielding... 8-)
Originally Posted By Stiler (13 JUL 2011 4:13pm)
They aren't dumbing it down though.
No, of course not...-they're just "simplifying" it, because gamers get so easily confused, and don't want to be bothered with little details like putting together armor and managing inventory - yet the fan forums have been full of discussions about details like what tattoo's you'll get to apply and what hairdo's you can get ..etc. :-X
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 7:16pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (13 JUL 2011 6:38pm)
Originally Posted By Stiler (13 JUL 2011 4:13pm)
They also confirmed in the recent fan Q&A that armor is combined into fewer pieces yet AGAIN. Now we can't even choose seperate chest/leg pieces, they are one solid piece.
Sigh, less customization is the exact OPPOSITE of what they should be going for, not less.
Morrowind you could mix and match even pauldrons (shoulder pieces),then Oblivion they were one and you couldn't, now it seems even less choice for you.
They aren't dumbing it down though.
Yes, and note that not only have skills become gradually less, but so have your choices regarding armor and weapons. Oblivion already culled the medium armor class, and quite a few of the weapons too.
One thing might be cool, though ( and I really, really hope this will turn out the way I anticipate it) ..-and that might be the introduction of dual-wielding... 8-)
Originally Posted By Stiler (13 JUL 2011 4:13pm)
They aren't dumbing it down though.
No, of course not...-they're just "simplifying" it, because gamers get so easily confused, and don't want to be bothered with little details like putting together armor and managing inventory - yet the fan forums have been full of discussions about details like what tattoo's you'll get to apply and what hairdo's you can get ..etc. :-X
The thing about dual wielding, and what they've talked about/shown off is that you'll pretty much ALWAYs want to have osmething in both hands, rather it be two swords, a shield and sword, sword and spell, etc.
For those of us that just want to use a one handed weapon (no shield) it seems we'll probably be gimped in some way, unles sthey have any kind of one-handed focus weapon perks or such, which I'm hoping for at least.
I just want to have my character work like a classic rapier style user, focusing on very quick, precise swings, etc. Building him up to be a mix of a thief and such. However iwth jumping acrobatics gone, this kind of character build seems soooooo out of the picture now .
Most likely I'll have to play my usual Conan inspired Nord who thumps things over the head with a two hander whilst wearing no pants (and now no chest piece either).
Maybe they'll bring back the naked Nord warrior form Morrowind, that was a great quest/npc, so random and out of blue, like the falling guy.
That's one thing I'm REALLY hoping they do more of. IN Morrowind you'd find crazy/weird quests and characters and it gave the worl dit's own humor and flavor, but in Oblivion it was a looooooooot less and more focused on usual quests, that fan guy wasn't even funny, just boody annoying and made you want to throw him off a cliff.
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 8:08pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (13 JUL 2011 1:04pm)
Oblivion GOTY is currently at 20€, but if you want all the DLC, you will have to pay another 5€ for the GOTY deluxe edition.
Oh? What does the De Luxe add in addition? I always thought I had all the content - but mind you, I had the original and bought my DLC seperately. I'd like to know if there's any official DLC that I'd missed? ...so what was left out of the GOTY version?
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 8:36pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Horse armour (and the other mini DLCs). All you get with the basic GOTY is Knights of the nine & Shivering isles (apart from the main game, that is)
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| 13 JUL 2011 at 8:50pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Heh, well, since I never use horses, I certainly won't miss that one.
Along with my Knights of the Nine pack, I got a pirate's cove, The Orrery, a vampire's hide-out and..? erm - can't remember. Well, you got nothing major with it, anyway, so no biggie anyway.
I'd actually like to replay Shivering Isles sometime, plus that fanmade mod that Halcyon said was so good.
Also, I still need to do the vampire quests.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 14 JUL 2011 at 2:05pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | If you bought a hard copy of Knights of the nine, you also got all the other DLC. There seem to be no real logic in which version contains the DLC.
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| 20 JUL 2011 at 8:18pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Are there any speculations about game time and area?
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 20 JUL 2011 at 10:18pm |
markornikovJourneyman
Posts : 1301
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dwwa (20 JUL 2011 8:18pm)
Are there any speculations about game time and area?
the latest news on IGN stated that the main quest would take about 30 hours long. roughly the same size as Cyrodiil with 150 dungeons (which is less then oblivion (200))
http://pc.ign.com/articles/118/1182338p1.html
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 8:46am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | I hope you don't mind if I quote you from another thread, Markonikov:
Markonikiv said:
Skyrim sounds promising:
Player/NPC interactions have been improved. Conversations between the player and NPCs will not freeze the rest of the game world, and the NPCs will continue their activities while occasionally glancing at the player. A new system "Radiant Story" has been developed for quests; NPCs react to the player's actions in new ways, such as fighting over possession of an item dropped by the player or attempting to return it to the player. The shop of a killed NPC may be inherited by another NPC, who may then offer the items/quests of the first but may not have the same disposition toward the player. The player may also marry an NPC, and if they own a house, their spouse will live in it with them.[6] The player's actions also directly affect side quest creation, as well as altering parts of quests. Your playing style also affects which quests are available, with some quests only being offered to those specializing in certain skills. Dialogue options are also available with hostile NPCs.[1][4] NPCs will now be visibly performing the tasks suited to their roles (i.e. a cook will be cooking) unlike previous games where they sort of just stood there.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim
..and I replied:
All of that does sound nice. ...but it's not going to sweeten the pie for me if there's not an interesting engrossing story, and some unusal and unique areas. Give me the latter and some reasonable depth re the RPG elements and a good combat/magic system and then I'll be very happy.
I wonder in which ways they've changed crafting. You used to be able to repair your armor and weapons, but it will be cool if you could make your own. I haven't had time yet to research what they've done with that, and with potionmaking and enchantment. I don't care so much about what the NPC's in the game can do, as much as I care what my own character can do in the game. I like being able to fiddle with things like that.
Btw, which reminds me that I watched a bit when someone was playing Fable 3. I see one of the ways to make money in Fable 3 is by busking and pie-making. Well, pie-making would be going a bit too far for a game like Skyrim, I think .. -then I could just as well get myself a copy of The Sims...
So what do you other TES lovers think? Do you want the game to exactly copy real life?
I'm a bit ambivalent. I'd like there to be options to make the world feel real and lived in, but if those are too much on the foreground, they can also become a time waster (like the day-night cycles where you can do nothing at night and have to wait for morning before you can continue interacting with people)
So yeah, I like little features that create more realism, but I still want to feel that I'm some other person, someone else than the real me, in Tamriel, in some weird far-off fanstasy universe, not just a copy of the real me on boring hum-drum old Earth. [smiley=cheesy.gif]
(..and I don't want to have to do mundane stuff like baking pies all day) [smiley=rofl.gif]
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 3:31pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Yeah, you're right, Travie... Weather they believe it or not, there is something called real life, where you can bvake pies and cut grass all of the time... We play video games in order to avoid that...
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 3:42pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (21 JUL 2011 8:46am)
I hope you don't mind if I quote you from another thread, Markonikov:
Markonikiv said:
Skyrim sounds promising:
Player/NPC interactions have been improved. Conversations between the player and NPCs will not freeze the rest of the game world, and the NPCs will continue their activities while occasionally glancing at the player. A new system "Radiant Story" has been developed for quests; NPCs react to the player's actions in new ways, such as fighting over possession of an item dropped by the player or attempting to return it to the player. The shop of a killed NPC may be inherited by another NPC, who may then offer the items/quests of the first but may not have the same disposition toward the player. The player may also marry an NPC, and if they own a house, their spouse will live in it with them.[6] The player's actions also directly affect side quest creation, as well as altering parts of quests. Your playing style also affects which quests are available, with some quests only being offered to those specializing in certain skills. Dialogue options are also available with hostile NPCs.[1][4] NPCs will now be visibly performing the tasks suited to their roles (i.e. a cook will be cooking) unlike previous games where they sort of just stood there.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim
..and I replied:
All of that does sound nice. ...but it's not going to sweeten the pie for me if there's not an interesting engrossing story, and some unusal and unique areas. Give me the latter and some reasonable depth re the RPG elements and a good combat/magic system and then I'll be very happy.
I wonder in which ways they've changed crafting. You used to be able to repair your armor and weapons, but it will be cool if you could make your own. I haven't had time yet to research what they've done with that, and with potionmaking and enchantment. I don't care so much about what the NPC's in the game can do, as much as I care what my own character can do in the game. I like being able to fiddle with things like that.
Btw, which reminds me that I watched a bit when someone was playing Fable 3. I see one of the ways to make money in Fable 3 is by busking and pie-making. Well, pie-making would be going a bit too far for a game like Skyrim, I think .. -then I could just as well get myself a copy of The Sims...
So what do you other TES lovers think? Do you want the game to exactly copy real life?
I'm a bit ambivalent. I'd like there to be options to make the world feel real and lived in, but if those are too much on the foreground, they can also become a time waster (like the day-night cycles where you can do nothing at night and have to wait for morning before you can continue interacting with people)
So yeah, I like little features that create more realism, but I still want to feel that I'm some other person, someone else than the real me, in Tamriel, in some weird far-off fanstasy universe, not just a copy of the real me on boring hum-drum old Earth. [smiley=cheesy.gif]
(..and I don't want to have to do mundane stuff like baking pies all day) [smiley=rofl.gif]
When it comes to "jobs" in game, imo they can just say "fuck it" and do mundane jobs that aren't fun really (Making pies, blacksmithing with nothing unique (IE like Fable), etc.
However they could do them with depth and have cooler jobs.
Bounty hunting missions, playing a medieval style bounty hunter where you track down criminals throughout Skyrim for certain varying amounts of gold, with some that spin off into their own mini-quests (IE you catch a guy, he tells you about a treasure he found, offers to tell you the location if you let him go, etc).
Blacksmithing/armorsmithing WITH actual customization. Where you get to actually design your weapons/armour, from different colors, pieces that go on over the armor, etchings, etc.
Imagine taking a sword, being able to select different hilts/blade designs, put little etchings on the blade (which you gain access to new looks as you find them in the world/skill up in it), similar typ eof thing for armour as well.
Then imagine you sell these armor/weapons to npc's throughotu the world, and over time you actually SEE people wearing things you've made, and if you stick with it and skill up your crafting you can even become "known" as a great crafter in the world.
That to me would be fun, and different, and make it worthwhile rather then havin git be barebones with a "minigame" to churn out goeneric swords/armour for petty cash.
I'd also love to see fishing in the game, where you can catch fish, sell them if you want for money or use them to eat for certain benefits.
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 3:43pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dwwa (21 JUL 2011 3:31pm)
Yeah, you're right, Travie... Weather they believe it or not, there is something called real life, where you can bvake pies and cut grass all of the time... We play video games in order to avoid that...
Tell the makers of The Sims that.. It's bad enough that I have to go to the loo every day in RL, and eat and sleep, and... ...but some people actually pay money so they can do that in a game [smiley=laughing.gif] : I want to do things in games that I can't do in RL.
Well, since I can't make magic potions or my own weapons and armor in RL, I'd like to be able to that in a game.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 5:39pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (21 JUL 2011 3:42pm)
When it comes to "jobs" in game, imo they can just say "Flipper Burns it" and do mundane jobs that aren't fun really (Making pies, blacksmithing with nothing unique (IE like Fable), etc.
However they could do them with depth and have cooler jobs.
Bounty hunting missions, playing a medieval style bounty hunter where you track down criminals throughout Skyrim for certain varying amounts of gold, with some that spin off into their own mini-quests (IE you catch a guy, he tells you about a treasure he found, offers to tell you the location if you let him go, etc).
[highlight]Blacksmithing/armorsmithing WITH actual customization. Where you get to actually design your weapons/armour, from different colors, pieces that go on over the armor, etchings, etc.
Imagine taking a sword, being able to select different hilts/blade designs, put little etchings on the blade (which you gain access to new looks as you find them in the world/skill up in it), similar typ eof thing for armour as well.
Then imagine you sell these armor/weapons to npc's throughotu the world, and over time you actually SEE people wearing things you've made, and if you stick with it and skill up your crafting you can even become "known" as a great crafter in the world. [/highlight]
That to me would be fun, and different, and make it worthwhile rather then havin git be barebones with a "minigame" to churn out goeneric swords/armour for petty cash.
I'd also love to see fishing in the game, where you can catch fish, sell them if you want for money or use them to eat for certain benefits.
Wow, that sounds cool, especially the bit that I highlighted. I'm pretty sure that they didn't do this, but maybe someone will make a mod like that. You should post those ideas on the forums where mod makers frequent. Maybe Chris will suggest that idea to someone for us.
And btw, there is a mod that allows you to do fishing in Morrowind, Morrowind has some cool wildlife mods. So you never know, someone might make one for Skyrim too.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 JUL 2011 at 10:01pm |
Child Of DunwichPrivate Detective
Posts : 480
Joined: 25 MAY 2011
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (21 JUL 2011 3:43pm)
Originally Posted By dwwa (21 JUL 2011 3:31pm)
Yeah, you're right, Travie... Weather they believe it or not, there is something called real life, where you can bvake pies and cut grass all of the time... We play video games in order to avoid that...
Tell the makers of The Sims that.. It's bad enough that I have to go to the loo every day in RL, and eat and sleep, and... ...but some people actually pay money so they can do that in a game [smiley=laughing.gif] : I want to do things in games that I can't do in RL.
Well, since I can't make magic potions or my own weapons and armor in RL, I'd like to be able to that in a game.
Haha, excatly how I feel, Travie... I can not believe that that game is one of the most selling ones... I'd rather play Barbie's Magical Unicorn Ponies Of Rainbow Forest XI. But this new Sims is kind of interesting, I must admit.
Nature's first green is gold,&&Her hardest hue to hold.&&Her early leaf's a flower;&&But only so an hour.&&Then leaf subsides to leaf.&&So Eden sank to grief,&&So dawn goes down to day.&&Nothing gold can stay.
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| 22 JUL 2011 at 8:11am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Heh, yes, I must admit that I got a bit of a negative impression of "The Sims" because I played the very first Sims that came out, and boy was that tedious...- it was just getting up, going to the toilet, going to work, playing a bit with some kind of little toy that you get for "leisure time" (not that there was much leisure time between eating, sleeping going to the toilet and work...)
...but of course, they've introduced more interesting scenarios to the series since then. Still, the first time bit me in the behind (once bitten twice shy) ... I couldn't believe I have to repeat in a game what I'm trying to get away from in RL...
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 22 JUL 2011 at 6:42pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I thought the house building aspect of the sims was rather entertaining. I did cheat my way through the game though, taking care of those sims was not very fun.
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