| 14 DEC 2010 at 7:25pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
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Status : Offline | Exactly! Great suspense. Plus, a new skill to develop.
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| 14 DEC 2010 at 8:43pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (14 DEC 2010 7:24pm)
Plus, a new skill to develop.
Heh, ok - would that be Spywork, Infiltration, Stealth or... er.. Subterfuge? Or more simply: SISS.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 14 DEC 2010 at 10:31pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1462
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Another thing that springs to mind for this game, is the hope that they really overhaul the AI in terms of what they know/remember about you.
If you steal something, it should have a much greater affect on that person you stole it from if you get caught. Whereas someone in another city? They shouldn't know anything at all about it.
Same with murder, if you murder someone at first, it should affect your standing to that town/people (that knew that npc you killed).
However if you kill enough people, word should spread and affect your reputation, both good and positive depending on the people.
All of this should be tied to no morality or anything of any kind "behind the scenes." If you wish to be a thief, but a master one who never gets sene or caught, no one should be the wiser. You should be able to play the hero and have everything think the best of you regardless.
Though I am rusty at TES and never really played a thief/murderer, so I'm not sure if perhaps some of these things were maybe already in.
I also hope to have more interaction with the world and things in it.
I'd LOVE to play a character who's nimble/acrobatic and have it ACTUALLY give me advantages in teh game, being able to climb things and grab ahold of ledges, etc. Something like in Assassin's Creed would be perfect.
Whereas the big bulky guy with no acrobatics? He couldn't dot hat. This would give a lot more reason to make different cahracters if they had more visual/game impacting differences between builds, rather then relying more on combat/numbers.
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| 14 DEC 2010 at 11:12pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (14 DEC 2010 8:43pm)
Originally Posted By TAS (14 DEC 2010 7:24pm)
Plus, a new skill to develop.
Heh, ok - would that be Spywork, Infiltration, Stealth or... er.. Subterfuge? Or more simply: SISS.
Perhaps Voice-Throwing, Impersonation, ShadowWalking and Elevation or... VISE.
Or, not.
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| 15 DEC 2010 at 6:07am |
CrisGerSchattenjger
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Status : Offline | I repeat..it will be a new and very nice engine.
It will be new deep story with connections to the past but painting a bright new future. They are good people at Beth and know how much MW and OB are loved and how much the ElderScrolls story means..indeed it is one of the most significant story lines ever created for games on computers.
And I am sure it wont be all snow and ice. I am very happy that plans long made have come to fruition, so many other major projects had to come first. Now it is ES time again.
happy dance.
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| 15 DEC 2010 at 11:29am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
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Status : Offline | Hey Chris, we're just having fun speculating. Almost every game with any kind of story has roots in the past and promises a better future -- if you kill all the baddies or solve all the puzzles, etc.
Bethesda would be idiots if they didn't make this game large, complex and diverse, as I'm sure they will. We're speculating about the specifics of how our hero might perceive this wonderful world and survive and thrive in it.
Great fun. Still, I wish the trailer didn't look so hardcore and storyless.
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| 8 JAN 2011 at 7:21am |
StilerJourneyman
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Status : Offline | So the new Gameinformer has came out, lots of info/screens.
Here's a good thread takling about what it says and the new info.
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?p=13292783
Also of note, in regards to lv scaling, it is in the game HOWEVER it isn't like Oblivion, rather like Fallout 3/NV.
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| 8 JAN 2011 at 2:08pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Thanks, Stiler!
On skills:
Mysticism is gone.
18 skills, down from 21 on Oblivion, and 27 on Morrowind. [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
Enemies include were-yeti's, giant spider, dragons and other cool creatures. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
On combat:
They want to make it more dynamic and tactical. You have to assign each hand with a function I think, either magic, 2 weapons, a weapon and a shield, etc.
You can also waste stamina by sprinting, allowing you to get access to tactical postitions.
Emphasis on really improving the combat this time around.
They are also putting care on how each weapon feel on your hand. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
5 massive cities sounds 8-) , but I do hope these have variety though..- that hey're not all Nord-ish cities.
Dual-wielding: you have two hands now in combat and you can wield anything to both hands. You may assign a dagger on left hand and use a mace with right hand. The choice as they say is yours. [smiley=cool.gif] [smiley=rockin.gif] [smiley=cool.gif] [smiley=rockin.gif] [smiley=cool.gif] [smiley=rockin.gif]
Duel: You may duel any NPC on the streets western style.
Sounds like they've gone to a lot of trouble with the quests and level scaling - I really hope that that works out well.
Thanks again for posting this, Stiler.
EDIT: I just noticed this:
no more class selection at the start of the game ... what the... :'( nooooo
I wonder if that means that you don't have major and minor skills anymore?
I wonder why they simply turned a blind ear to everyone who complained about Oblivion being so simplified down, since they seem to have simplified Skyrim even more now...
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 8 JAN 2011 at 10:38pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1462
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Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | It seems that instead of choosing a "class" you simply lv up skills on your own and shape them however you wish.
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| 9 JAN 2011 at 9:45am |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Yes, admittedly I probably overreacted a bit regarding the "class choice at the start" thing. It doesn't really matter that much if you just shape them on the fly, as long as they still have the same choice of skills, which sadly though, they don't... :-/
I was already pretty miffed when they took a bunch of them away with Ob, and now they've taken even more away.
This might have the advantage of allowing you to put more points into certain skills, but I liked the system of 'the more you use a skill, the more points you get in it' . With a system like that, there is no downside for the player having tons of skills available.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 10 JAN 2011 at 9:55pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
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Status : Offline | Didn't they kind of do it with Oblivion?
The first dungeon level shaped you class depending on how you played that level.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 11 JAN 2011 at 12:29am |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
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Location: US
Status : Offline | In Oblvion you can always improve your skills with teachers who you find in the course of your journey.....
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| 11 JAN 2011 at 3:07am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
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Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | On skills:
Mysticism is gone.
18 skills, down from 21 on Oblivion, and 27 on Morrowind.
and 36 in daggerfall
I agree that this is a major minus though. In morrowind every skill had its niche, and was useful in some way (in dagerfall the language skills were rather uninteresting, so dropping them was no real loss), but in Oblivion the limited skill selection made character development far less interesting than it should have been.
•Todd Howard confirms that Skyrim will use the perk system that they used in Fallout 3, noting that there was an automated perk system in place in Oblivion, but in Skyrim, the user has control over it. There are dozens of perks to choose from, that may increase dagger damage during stealth attacks and may mean your mace attack may ignore your foe’s armour skills.
This is nice. Perks were one of my favourite aspects of character development in Fallout, as it forced you to make some hard & interesting choices when it came to how you would shape your character.
•You can also get involved in mundane tasks if you wish, like farming, woodcutting, mining and even cooking.
This is a really nice touch. The ability to do these mundane tasks really helps the immersion (although "even" cooking? They make it sound like this is something that has not been done before. Could you not cook in Ultima 6 & 7?)
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| 11 JAN 2011 at 7:08am |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (11 JAN 2011 3:07am)
•Todd Howard confirms that Skyrim will use the perk system that they used in Fallout 3, noting that there was an automated perk system in place in Oblivion, but in Skyrim, the user has control over it. There are dozens of perks to choose from, that may increase dagger damage during stealth attacks and may mean your mace attack may ignore your foe’s armour skills.
This is nice. Perks were one of my favourite aspects of character development in Fallout, as it forced you to make some hard & interesting choices when it came to how you would shape your character.
Heh, to me perks was one of the more zany aspects of Fallout 3+, so it will be interesting to see it applied to the TES world.
•You can also get involved in mundane tasks if you wish, like farming, woodcutting, mining and even cooking.
This is a really nice touch. The ability to do these mundane tasks really helps the immersion (although "even" cooking? They make it sound like this is something that has not been done before. Could you not cook in Ultima 6 & 7?)
Yes, I also thought this is quite cool, but didn't think anyone would agree with me. You can cook (and mine, and do a few other 'mundane' things) in the Gothic games. In Gothic your meat becomes worth a lot more if you cook it.
You can also do mining in Divnity 2. In fact, it becomes quite an important way of finding valuable gems needed for enchanting, later in the game.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 11 JAN 2011 at 7:16am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (10 JAN 2011 9:54pm)
Didn't they kind of do it with Oblivion?
The first dungeon level shaped you class depending on how you played that level.
Yes, and then it gave you an option to change it the way you want it, just before you exit the dungeon.
But I'm guessing that what they're saying, is that not only will you not have major and minor skills anymore, you won't have birthsigns anymore either. As you might remember, birthsigns gave you "perks"; so I'm guessing that this will be replaced by the more formal, leveled perk system like that of FO3's, as mentioned; which might actually be an improvement to the "birthsign" system, so I'm not complaining about that aspect of it. [smiley=thumbup.gif]
The birthsigns did feel more organic, but it was pretty limited; so at least some choices will hopefully be increasing as opposed to decreasing.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 1:20am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Hey, I love the perks in Fallout, as well as the sense of humor (although there aren't as many yuks and puns in Oblivion).
Cooking, farming, huh? Um, I play these games to escape, not slave in the kitchen and rake the yard. Fallout New Vegas has card games and gambling, but it is tedious until you finish the game for the third time and need something new.
As I see it, the birthsign system just chooses your skills (and looks) for you, where in FO you choose them yourself at the beginning. In both cases, it really only makes a difference early on. When the other skills and weaponry catch up, I don't see a difference for any birthsign.
Give me a gorgeous and surprising environment, great storyline and compelling side quests and I'm happy. And don't get too Gothic on me.
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 8:06am |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (12 JAN 2011 1:20am)
As I see it, the birthsign system just chooses your skills (and looks) for you, where in FO you choose them yourself at the beginning.
Nope, both games choose all your stats for you if you allow it to. Remember the "test" you write in FO3? Same as running through the dungeon in Oblivion.
However, Fallout 3 allows you to waive the results of the test, and in Oblivion, as you attempt to open the metal grate where you exit the dungeon, the game will ask you if you are happy with the stats it awarded you. You need simply to say "no" and you can change everything : your race, gender, looks, skills, birthsign, the works.
Only once you exit the sewers through that circular grate can you not (without using the console) change your stats anymore.
Neither game chooses your looks for you. You get to choose your looks right at the start in Ob, and both games give you a wide variety of choices regarding the colour of your skin, hair, hair-do, facial hair, shape of eyes, nose, chin, lips, etc. etc.
In case you've gone a bit hazy as to what exactly "birthsigns" are:
In Tamriel, a birthsign is the constellation under which a person is born. Each bestows upon those born under it unique magical powers, either passive or active, and may be perceived as either a "blessing" or a "curse".
The birthsigns can be categorized into three general groups: those that give Attribute bonuses, those that provide lesser and/or greater powers, and those that affect your Magicka:
Attribute bonuses: Lady, Steed, Thief, and Warrior.
Magicka effects: Apprentice, Atronach, and Mage
Greater/lesser powers: Lord, Lover, Ritual, Serpent, Shadow, and Tower
All Attributes are capped at 100. The birthsigns Warrior, Thief, Lady, and Steed won't allow you to go above this cap.
A character's chosen birthsign cannot be changed in-game (without the use of the console), but Doomstones can provide additional powers -- sometimes, even permanent ones -- that are similar to, and in some cases better than, those of the birthsigns, such as the Shadow (become invisible for 60 seconds) vs the Jone Stone (become invisible for 120 seconds).
The birthsign system in Morrowind and in Oblivion, give you perks that are a bit harder to catch up on in Mw than Ob, such as Sanctuary (an ability one sadly doesn't even have in Ob), Star Curse, Lover's Kiss, Moonshadow, -oh and very useful is what you get with The Tower, among other perks an "Open 50pts" ability, which allows you to loot more right from the beginning, etc.
Morrowind and Ob also gave you nice racial abilities, such as for instance the Dunmer in Ob gets:
[size=14][font=Comic Sans MS]Attributes
Male
+10 Speed
-10 Willpower and Personality
Female
+10 Speed
-10 Willpower and Endurance
Skills
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits
Ancestor Guardian greater power : Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day .
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
The latter useful trait being why I prefer to play a Dunmer in Oblivion. The Ancestor guardian is also useful to have.
All of the above had been part of TES lore and part of the fun of character creation, and part of what made the TES world more rich and interesting, and also gave it more of an RPG character. (Choices, character building, roleplaying)
I'm sad to see more and more of it go every time a new TES game is made - if the trend continues, eventually TES will be just the same as any other generic medieval hack-and-slasher, with none of that special imaginative magic left that had made it different, that saw its zenith in Morrowind.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 1:58pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
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Status : Offline | In FO NV, you take a "test" at the machine, then the doc asks you questions. Both sets of data you can change right away--in fact, you are asked to review them. Then, as you try to leave Goodsprings (in NV) or the Vault (in FO3) you are given the opportunity to change anything you want. After that, what you chose is permanent (unless you use the console).
I never noticed much difference between birthsigns and their related abilities in Oblivion. I just don't like playing as some of those races. I also probably don't play the game as others might.
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 2:23pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (12 JAN 2011 1:58pm)
In FO NV, you take a "test" at the machine, then the doc asks you questions. Both sets of data you can change right away--in fact, you are asked to review them. Then, as you try to leave Goodsprings (in NV) or the Vault (in FO3) you are given the opportunity to change anything you want. After that, what you chose is permanent (unless you use the console).
Yip, exactly, so both the last 2 FO games and the last 2 TES games are geared for both the veteran player, who knows exatly what he/she wants, and the first timer, who is not sure and who is happy to just take what the game gives him/her; since all of these games allow for a custom build or for a game-generated build right at the outset, as the gamer chooses. (Or at least within the confines of the tutorial section.)
I never noticed much difference between birthsigns and their related abilities in Oblivion. I just don't like playing as some of those races. I also probably don't play the game as others might.
Keep in mind that birthsigns are not related to race. You can pick any race and combine it with any birthsign. I personally enjoy this complexity, but I suppose there are gamers who would prefer to have things a bit simpler and more straightforward.
Let's take for instance the pros and cons conferred by 'The Apprenctice' birthsign. This sign has two permanent effects:
Fortify Magicka 100 points on Self
Weakness to Magic 100% on Self
I've never chosen it because of the weakness to magic, but if you choose racially speaking to be a Breton, at least that will mitigate a large part of the weakness to magic, since a Breton gets the following abilities and attributes (note the highlighted section):
Attributes
Male
+10 Intelligence and Willpower
-10 Agility, Speed, and Endurance
Female
+10 Intelligence and Willpower
-10 Strength, Agility, and Endurance
Skills
+10 Conjuration, Mysticism, and Restoration
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, and Illusion
Traits
Breton Enhanced Magicka ability : Fortify Magicka 50 points on Self, constant
[highlight]Breton Magic Resistance ability : Resist Magic 50% on self, constant [/highlight]
Dragon Skin greater power: Shield 50% for 60 seconds on self, once per day
On the other hand, Bretons already have a fortify magica as well, which makes it a much nicer, sturdier, race for a magic user than an Altmer, I personally think. So... although I prefer to play a magic user, I tend to go either Breton or Dunmer, because of their racial attributes, and I never choose the Apprentice birthsign, - it's just not seemed worth the downside to me up to now.
I might be wrong in this, though, since I do tend to often have a prob with low magica; so I'll try a Breton/Apprentice mix next time and let you know if it makes an appreciable difference.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 3:13pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Yeah, I see. I never put too much importance into how I start out. Maybe I should. But it requires a decision on how to play the game -- stealth, magic, melee.
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 4:01pm |
TravellerGuild Master
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Status : Offline | I'll be honest with you, Halcyon. I had to restart Morrowind 3x because I chose the wrong build.
My very first RPG that I'd attempted in my life was actually Neverwinter Nights, but I never continued with NWN because I kept dying.
So next I tried Morrowind, which I decided to perservere with, because the gameworld seemed so much more engaging to me than that of Neverwinter Nights.
Because I like doing magic, I started off as an Altmer. But because of the racial traits, my Altmer seemed simply too flimsy and died too easily. Then I tried a Kajiit, but was soon put off by the fact that Kajiit cannot wear helmets or boots.
So my 3rd try was a pretty Breton female, and I never looked back since! [smiley=rockin.gif]
Nowadays I start either Mwind or Ob with pencil and paper in hand. : I actually enjoy working out the results of combining which race with which birthsign, and also how they affect skills like ranged and longsword skills, or destruction, etc. (so one has to choose your preferred method of combat beforehand as well) but like I said before, I do understand if doing this is not quite everybody's cup of tea.
When I started with RPG's I never looked at them this technically, it's just something that evolved the more I started playing them, and also the result of lurking around on RPG oriented forums.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 4:13pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | I know you're all about strategy and shaping the technical aspects of the gameplay to your liking.
Me, I guess I spend as little time as possible thinking about the variations, choose something quick, and just go with what I've got. This is why each time I play Oblivion (or FO for that matter) I find myself taking an entirely different and surprising path.
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 8:07pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1462
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Coming from someone who has played mmorpgs, I have got the "Min/Max" type of mentality, even in single player games if I end up "gimping" myself it's a pain in my neck.
I had to restart some in Fallout: NV after I found out hours later that a perk I went with was not as good as another for my character build.
Sometimes making things more simple is good, as far as being able to just nail down that "Type" of charactre you want and not having to mix/max out all the numbers and crunch them to find out the "perfect" build.
I can see how some people enjoy it, I just do it out of habit from multiplayer games though.
One way that solves all of this, for both sides? A simple re-skill system in game. Most mmo's have these these days because no one want sto reroll a character they've invested hours/months into because of one simply mistake on picking a skill/talent. I wish some single player rpgs would have similar systems in game (at a cost though, so you can't just willy nilly use it).
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| 12 JAN 2011 at 8:36pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (12 JAN 2011 8:06pm)
One way that solves all of this, for both sides? A simple re-skill system in game. Most mmo's have these these days because no one want sto reroll a character they've invested hours/months into because of one simply mistake on picking a skill/talent. I wish some single player rpgs would have similar systems in game (at a cost though, so you can't just willy nilly use it).
Yes, that is indeed a nice feature to have, Stiler. Div 2, for instance, has a feature where you can "unlearn" all skills yes, your entire skill set save for 3 basic skills that are mandatory) from your trainer for a certain amount of cash, but since my cash has been short, I had to juggle things carefully.
As soon as I had loose cash to waste, I unlearned and redid my skill tree, and boy, was it worth it! You can keep on unlearning and relearning, but every time it becomes progressively more expensive to do it.
Btw, will do some Div 2 chatter tomorrow in it's own thread if I have a bit of spare time. [smiley=blahblah.gif] I've been saving some Div 2 screenshots that I want to post too.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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