| 15 NOV 2010 at 7:14am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Mystery Case Files: Ravenhearst is quite a nice one, but the sequel, Return to Ravenhearst is definitely better, imo.
Samantha Swift is also rather fun for a quick romp. The Lost Cases of Sherlock Holmes is a nice stand-in for Tetris over lunch.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 7:47am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By AVAKA (15 NOV 2010 4:34am)
I can't take it any more!!!!
There....I feel much better.....
Now, what the heck are HOGS?????
Thank you : :-[ :-*
At this point.... I found a post I could understand and relate to.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 12:25pm |
colpetSchattenjger
Posts : 1630
Joined: 12 APR 2003
Status : Offline | In the past 2 years I've played more IHOGs than Adventures. No one is making the type of adventure I like to play, so I'm finding some Casuals an alternative. I find it funny that now they are trying to introduce more story, inventory and dialogue into Casual games - exactly the stuff I"m trying to get away from. Soon I'll be playing nothing at all.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 12:56pm |
TechnoSpikePrivate Detective
Posts : 581
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Location: PT
Status : Offline | Ok, ok, I had already figured it out what HOG's mean before MKB's post, however... what in damnation is IHOGs?? :-?
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 1:11pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | I want to apologize to Ivinia and anyone else if the form in which I said what I said made you feel insulted. Our exchange of arguments has needlessly included additions like "You're crazy!"/"No, it's you who are crazy!" and as different as our views currently are, this sort of antagonism is really bad for discussion.
I've been playing adventure games since the early 90s and I stand by my claim that after a very weak decade (doesn't mean there haven't been any good adventure games released in that period - 10 years is a lot of time), things have now started improving greatly, with most adventure game creators finally making money (which hardly qualifies as talk of an "explosion of output", SirDave), and I really hope this tendency will continue.
If you want to prove the situation is different, you should prepare a comprehensive list of what you think are signs that new adventure games don't sell, that established game companies aren't making any new ones and that there aren't any new adventure game developers that amount to anything. Only saying that you prefer adventure games from a few years ago to what is available now is not proving anything.
In the meantime I would prepare my own list of signs that adventure games are doing quite well (making money for new projects) and that there are many active developers out there with passion for the genre. We would then be able to discuss what conclusions about the adventure game market can be taken out from the comparison of these 2 lists.
But I need people to express serious interest in doing such experiment (and preferably actively participate), because I don't want to waste my time assembling all that information for nothing.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 4:33pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By TechnoSpike (15 NOV 2010 12:56pm)
Ok, ok, I had already figured it out what HOG's mean before MKB's post, however... what in damnation is IHOGs?? :-?
I'm guessing Interactive Hidden Object Games referring to Colpet's description for those types of games with more story, inventory and dialogue.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 4:43pm |
CrisGerSchattenjger
Posts : 2539
Joined: 28 APR 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | With hopes of spreading a bit of calm here, i feel that both views and those in between are all valid.. Yes the world of game development has changed radically since the advent of consoles, and the huge growth of hyperactive violence oriented war and attack games.....the adventure game world almost faded away for some time..but i agree that there is a revival of sorts going on and it covers many genres. ....and offers hope. It is not the glory days of olde...but it is worthy of hope. And there are significant sales going on in both revived and remade older titles and new platforms for them..and for new titles quite a few of which are coming out of a min reinassance in Germany and eastern Europe in game development. I am in contact with a wide range of game developers and industry people thru a group i am admin of and know there is excitement about this and hence more decisions being made in the Adventure genre direction, both revivals and new.
Admin
3D Worlds and Game Developers
Linkedin
http://3dworldandgamedevelopers.blogspot.com
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 5:54pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Maybe things look better if you live in Germany, where several games have been released that have not been released in North America. Things have been pretty bleak in North America, especially for those who want boxed games (and games without copy "protection" that is so anal that it blacklists Microsoft Sysinternals utilities).
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 6:12pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | There is also another thing to consider. Many of the classic AG traits have been picked up by CRPGs. Most CRPGs that existed during the golden age of adventure games were far more combat focused, and the puzzle solving what usually more about finding a particular item than figuring out how to solve an interesting puzzle. There were exceptions, of course, but those were rare. If anything, the AG genre has split, and parts of it has merged with CRPGs, which also takes people away from the AG genre.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 6:28pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Perhaps we should make a seperate thread for HOG's and casual games
(I suppose theoretically that would go into 'other games' but we're not used to posting about them there.)
So apologies for going totally off track here, but personally, I find the HOGS with no or not much of a story incredibly boring, which is why I mentioned a few with settings that are a bit more varied, storied and imo, fun. Ravenhearst 1 & 2, Samantha Swift, Lost Cases of Sherlock Holmes, etc.)
Some of these HOG's are incredibly easy over-simplistic and lame, such as for instance CSI NY, but I suppose a lot of them attract a market that wants something to keep them busy during lunchtime at work.
However, you are more and more getting "crossover" casual games, that are on the brink of being 'proper' adventure games. "rawn: The Painted Tower" was such a game, and apparently Drawn: Dark Flight is even more of a proper AG. I actually can't wait until I have time to play the latter and see for myself.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 6:46pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 1:11pm)
want to apologize to Ivinia and anyone else if the form in which I said what I said made you feel insulted. Our exchange of arguments has needlessly included additions like "You're crazy!"/"No, it's you who are crazy!" and as different as our views currently are, this sort of antagonism is really bad for discussion.
Yes it is and I hope you realize that it all started with the 'How can you say something like that? (and what followed) in response to Ivinia voicing a feeling that I think I can safely say is shared by the great majority of regular AG players here ( 'While I don't see them as being dead by any means, I feel pretty confident in saying that I think we are at an all-time low.').
On the other hand, I find that I can accept something like CrisGer's more restrained, 'the adventure game world almost faded away for some time..but i agree that there is a revival of sorts going on and it covers many genres. ....and offers hope. It is not the glory days of olde...but it is worthy of hope.'
I've been playing adventure games since the early 90s and I stand by my claim that after a very weak decade (doesn't mean there haven't been any good adventure games released in that period - 10 years is a lot of time), things have now started improving greatly, with most adventure game creators finally making money (which hardly qualifies as talk of an "explosion of output", SirDave)...
Well, at least for me, the following does:
At the moment many long awaited adventure games are appearing (Monkey Island 5, Gray Matter, Machinarium, The Whispered World, Blackwell Convergence) and are much more popular in the mainstream than anything else in the last decade, which benefits the companies that release them, as well as the entire genre. Similarly, independent adventure games are flourishing and receive notable awards, freeware adventure games reach unprecedented quality and media attention. Budgets are getting bigger, the amount of new releases is much larger, and even the new generation of Interactive Fiction is currently enjoying a a lot of attention and unexpected funding.
If you want to prove the situation is different, you should prepare a comprehensive list of what you think are signs that new adventure games don't sell, that established game companies aren't making any new ones and that there aren't any new adventure game developers that amount to anything. Only saying that you prefer adventure games from a few years ago to what is available now is not proving anything.
In the meantime I would prepare my own list of signs that adventure games are doing quite well (making money for new projects) and that there are many active developers out there with passion for the genre. We would then be able to discuss what conclusions about the adventure game market can be taken out from the comparison of these 2 lists.
But I need people to express serious interest in doing such experiment (and preferably actively participate), because I don't want to waste my time assembling all that information for nothing.
I think Jenny and CrisGer above have pointed out an important distinction: Whatever renaissance in adventure games (if it is for that matter) is occurring, it appears to be restricted to parts of Europe where there may be some (very) local success. We're certainly not seeing it in North America and it remains to be seen whether we're going to though, as I've mentioned, I think there's hope for more AGs, old and new, for the iPad-like platform.
Also, you've mentioned more than once that developers are making money. I have no idea what that means. Having run a small software business in the past, I am very much aware that one can 'make money' on a project, but that doesn't necessarily translate into making a living. Also, one or two persons in a garage may make money on a small project, but that doesn't translate into a scenario that means a resurgence of AGs on the level that most of us are looking for. Nor does an increase in freeware AGs or Interactive Fiction.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 7:07pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (15 NOV 2010 6:11pm)
There is also another thing to consider. Many of the classic AG traits have been picked up by CRPGs. Most CRPGs that existed during the golden age of adventure games were far more combat focused, and the puzzle solving what usually more about finding a particular item than figuring out how to solve an interesting puzzle. There were exceptions, of course, but those were rare. If anything, the AG genre has split, and parts of it has merged with CRPGs, which also takes people away from the AG genre.
Good point and I think that HOGs have contributed in much the same way.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 7:24pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4040
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (15 NOV 2010 7:07pm)
Originally Posted By Fnord (15 NOV 2010 6:11pm)
There is also another thing to consider. Many of the classic AG traits have been picked up by CRPGs. Most CRPGs that existed during the golden age of adventure games were far more combat focused, and the puzzle solving what usually more about finding a particular item than figuring out how to solve an interesting puzzle. There were exceptions, of course, but those were rare. If anything, the AG genre has split, and parts of it has merged with CRPGs, which also takes people away from the AG genre.
Good point and I think that HOGs have contributed in much the same way.
I've always loved my CRPG's, but that will never take me away from AG's, although I suppose that it might be true for some people, some of them who now visit more on the "other games" forum than in the AG forum.
I play different genre's for different reasons, and although certainly strategy games have become more interesting, even hybrid, a lot of them with great stories, and although most CRPG's have great stories these days, keep in mind that CRPG's always had stories and quite a few of the old ones had puzzles.
I wouldn't say that modern shooters, CRPG's or strategy games could satisfy my itch for non-combat games that focus on puzzling.
Perhaps less gamers out there these days have the patience to sit with puzzles though, and prefer games that can give them a faster pace? Therefore also the increased popularity of casual as well as action-oriented games.
Perhaps, also, the teenager of old who would play video games came more from a geeky, nerdy, computer-oriented niche mold than do the young videogamers of today.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 7:31pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | SirDave, if it was unclear, I meant "making money" as in "making a living and profiting enough to start a new project". I certainly didn't mean a situation where you get 100$ for something that required 1 million to create.
I think Jenny and CrisGer above have pointed out an important distinction: Whatever renaissance in adventure games (if it is for that matter) is occurring, it appears to be restricted to parts of Europe where there may be some (very) local success. We're certainly not seeing it in North America and it remains to be seen whether we're going to
That's not what CrisGer said. And I don't know what you mean as a "very) local success" in a world where the most profits from PC games sales are rapidly moving (or have already moved) to digital distribution. There are very few new games that never get translated into English or which purchase is blocked in North America. Besides, success is success regardless if a game is already translated to English or not.
In my previous post I've proposed a way we could discuss specific facts - in particular how specific game titles are doing sales wise, yet you insist on repeating the same broad statements which there's no way to verify without knowing what you're basing your opinions on. This is not very constructive.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 8:36pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 7:31pm)
I think Jenny and CrisGer above have pointed out an important distinction: Whatever renaissance in adventure games (if it is for that matter) is occurring, it appears to be restricted to parts of Europe where there may be some (very) local success. We're certainly not seeing it in North America and it remains to be seen whether we're going to
That's not what CrisGer said.
Then you must have missed this:
And there are significant sales going on in both revived and remade older titles and new platforms for them..and for new titles quite a few of which are coming out of a min reinassance in Germany and eastern Europe in game development.
I have already addressed the fact that whatever resurgence of NA sales of AGs is due to the release of 'both revived and remade older titles' for the iPad platform (a clear example being the revival of Trilobyte for the sole reason of making their games available on the iPad). Crisger's specific reference regarding 'new titles' emphasizes those coming from parts of Europe.
In my previous post I've proposed a way we could discuss specific facts - in particular how specific game titles are doing sales wise, yet you insist on repeating the same broad statements which there's no way to verify without knowing what you're basing your opinions on. This is not very constructive.
There is nothing for us to gain by trying to describe a vacuum. It is what it is. However, it is up to you to prove your point (beyond the little that you have so far) that whatever game titles you are referring to are a) actually making a reason return for the developers and b) that they are substantial enough in quality and quantity to signal a true resurgence of AGs. The ball is very much in your court not ours.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 9:21pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Please point out to me where CrisGer mentioned the renaissance being "restricted to parts of Europe" and there being only "some (very) local success" - being developed in Europe doesn't mean a game is restricted to any specific area.
That said, I still don't understand your idea of a "restricted and local success". Do you disregard games developed in Europe for some reason?
There is nothing for us to gain by trying to describe a vacuum.
If you claim that there are no new adventure game releases and no new adventure games in the making, or less so than a few years ago, you need to back this up with examples (examples of companies going out of business, losing money etc.). Otherwise your opinion seems baseless.
If you consider all the profitable games I already listed as "a vacuum" and you pretend you don't see them, then I don't see any point of providing you with more examples.
And if you consider some info I provided about a specific game as fake or unreliable than please address that directly instead of belittling the significance of each game's success without giving a reason.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:31pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 9:21pm)
Please point out to me where CrisGer mentioned the renaissance being "restricted to parts of Europe" and there being only "some (very) local success" - being developed in Europe doesn't mean a game is restricted to any specific area.
That said, I still don't understand your idea of a "restricted and local success". Do you disregard games developed in Europe for some reason?
There is nothing for us to gain by trying to describe a vacuum.
If you claim that there are no new adventure game releases and no new adventure games in the making, or less so than a few years ago, you need to back this up with examples (examples of companies going out of business, losing money etc.). Otherwise your opinion seems baseless.
If you consider all the profitable games I already listed as "a vacuum" and you pretend you don't see them, then I don't see any point of providing you with more examples.
And if you consider some info I provided about a specific game as fake or unreliable than please address that directly instead of belittling the significance of each game's success without giving a reason.
No, I think it best to leave you to walk alone in your world.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:39pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 1:11pm)
I want to apologize to Ivinia and anyone else if the form in which I said what I said made you feel insulted.
No need to apologize. Its a good debate I think. I have a feeling (as Jenny and Cris pointed out), that there is a bit of different perspectives based on where we are from that is coming into play to a certain degree.
I for instance am surrounded by stores (there is a Best Buy and GameStop within a 1/4 mile of my apartment) and it makes me sick every time I go into BestBuy to see the shrinking PC games space. We are talking all genres here. Equally irritating is seeing much of that already limited shelf space being overloaded with Casual and HOG games. With GameStop there are NO PC games.
That being said, this digital distribution thing sucks sweaty Bobo nuts. First off, $19.99 was the AG benchmark for years. I was glad to see it move up a bit to the $30 range as this meant higher profits for the developers and potential expansion/better games.
Taking that into consideration, I sure as hell don't expect to pay $29.99 for a downloadable game with no box. Add to that I have no desire to wait 1-3hours for the thing to download and THEN start installing when I used to be able to have it in my hands within 5-10 minutes (boxed!) and those were $19.99.
So lets break this down...
THEN: $20, had a hard copy that was good forever, 5-10 minutes delivery time.
NOW: $30, most likely some install limitation, 1-3 hours delivery time.
Lets not even get into playing times...
IMO, if I am getting less (and being inconvenienced), then I expect to pay less. Case in point, movies. I can buy the DVD for $20, I can rent it for $4, I can join NetFlix for $10/month and watch all the movies I want. No, I don't expect to pay $10/month and play all the games I want. But I do expect to pay less. The thing with movies is that they really are less inconvenient being downloadable. There is no wait.
See the difference? More convenient, less money for a movie. More inconvenient, more money for games.
I get it though, everything is moving to downloadable "on demand". That fine, but don't friggin' charge me the same rate (or higher!) than I used to pay for a hard copy of the thing and limit how many times I can use it.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:45pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 9:21pm)
Please point out to me where...
Ok, now you are creeping me out. Is this Jamarchand using a different SN?
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:49pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Gosh.... this thread takes me back to the old days when fights broke out over nothing ....
[IMG]http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3345/cowboyfight3.jpg[/IMG]
Let me know who wins.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:52pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Since when did HOG's get classed as an adventure game. Pixel Hunts were an adventure game annoyance not a plus point of the genre.
They are stretching the definition of the word game never mind adventure.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 10:57pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Caroline (15 NOV 2010 10:49pm)
Gosh.... this thread takes me back to the old days when fights broke out over nothing ....
Let me know who wins.
You have to be told?
(BTW: A little excitement wouldn't hurt this forum. )
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 11:04pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lucien21 (15 NOV 2010 10:51pm)
Since when did HOG's get classed as an adventure game. Pixel Hunts were an adventure game annoyance not a plus point of the genre.
They are stretching the definition of the word game never mind adventure.
Agreed! Why Pagoda put those in there I will never know.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 11:29pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (15 NOV 2010 9:21pm)
That said, I still don't understand your idea of a "restricted and local success". Do you disregard games developed in Europe for some reason?
What we disregard is games that aren't made available for much of the world, either by a language barrier or not being able to buy them at all.
I do not consider download-only games that are ridden with DRM restrictions and which can't be played without "phoning home" to a server that may not exist in the future to be the equal of boxed games without restrictive DRM.
Keep in mind this is an English-speaking forum. Few people in North America (and probably not the UK either) can speak German fluently enough to play an adventure game. And Germany is the place to be if you like adventure games, thanks to German publisher dtp.
If you claim that there are no new adventure game releases and no new adventure games in the making, or less so than a few years ago, you need to back this up with examples (examples of companies going out of business, losing money etc.).
Edna Bricht Aus was published in Germany 2 years ago
Still no North American Release.
Secret Files: Puritas Cordis was published in Germany in 2008.
An English version was produced, but never published in North America. Some people in NA were able to buy it as an import.
After making 5 reasonably good adventure games, City-Interactive is no longer making adventure games but is now making HOG's and console games. They couldn't make enough money with adventure games to survive, so they switched to casual games, which are cheaper to make and easier to sell.
Frogwares has no adventure games planned beyond Sherlock Testament. Their most recent Sherlock Holmes game is a casual. They can't afford to put all their money into adventure games any more.
Kheops no longer has any adventure games in development. They can't find a publisher for the type of games they used to make, so they're making an episodic HOG/puzzle series called The Fall.
The North American version of 15 Days has been delayed yet again -- this time until some time in 2011. People in the UK have trouble getting it too, with someone in ***this thread*** mentioning September 2011.
Mozart was published in 2009, but not in English and apparently there will be no English version.
Runaway 3 has no boxed version published in North America. Some people in NA were able to buy it as an import.
Tony Tough 2 was published in Germany in 2006 but never had an English release.
Fenimore Fillmore's Revenge was published in Germany in 2009, and apparently in the UK, but never had a North American release.
Dead Mountaineer's Hotel (initially known as Hotel At a Lost Climber or something like that due to a translation issue) does not appear to have been published outside of Germany. (most of my publishing information is from Mobygames)
Gray Matter has been released in a German/English version in Germany, but the English release is delayed at least until February 2011 for North America (and I wouldn't be surprised if it was delayed after that as well). That delay seems to extend to the UK.
Aura 3 was supposed to be out in summer of this year, along with some other adventures from Streko, but didn't make it. Here's Streko's list:
http://www.streko-graphics.com/devgames.php#start
Looking up recent release information at Mobygames, it's interesting that Russia seems to be getting more adventure game releases than North America these days.
The only consistent source of adventure games for North America seems to be the Nancy Drew games. Some of them may be short, but at least they're complete games and not "episodes" that are shorter than many casual games.
Although there are some small developers that are growing (the Dark Fall/Lost Crown series and the Last Half of Darkness series), most seem to be staying the same size (RHEM series, Carol Reed series). And mid-size companies that used to put out games regularly (City Interactive, Kheops) seem to have moved to casuals either wholly or in part.
Like other posters in this thread, I don't wish to diminish the value of small developers (even the one-man-shows). But in the past we had the small developers in addition to the mid-size publishers. And now we have less.
A lot of upcoming games have become vaporware. Anyone remember reading about 8? or Atma: Secret Light of India? So I don't consider "in the making" games to be very reliable unless the developer has a good record for getting things out. Something can be "in the making" for years and never be published.
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