| 13 NOV 2010 at 4:51pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | I received a head's up on Frogwares some time ago (one of my favorite Developers) - my world was crushed. I'm not a huge fan of HOG's in general, but apparently they're easier to produce and very inexpensive to bring to market.
Tough economic times = Hog's.
Don't be overly surprised when the PC platform is also discontinued.
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 4:55pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (13 NOV 2010 4:51pm)
I received a head's up on Frogwares some time ago (one of my favorite Developers) - my world was crushed. I'm not a huge fan of HOG's in general, but apparently they're easier to produce and very inexpensive to bring to market.
I'm extremely saddened too. Frogwares was my absolute favorite, (especially the Sherlock games )and they'd promised to still continue with AG's whilst just using the HOG's as an additional income to keep the coffers filled.
Don't be overly surprised when the PC platform is also discontinued. No, no, no - why would they do that? :'(
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 5:49pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Closely related recent thread:
http://justadventure.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1288907289
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 6:29pm |
| Deleted User | I can't say it's a crushing blow, but even City Interactive has moved on towards the margets bearing larger profits. Even with their faults, I bought and played all their adventure games and personally will miss them.
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 7:52pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (13 NOV 2010 3:27pm)
I was wondering why there hadn't seemed to be any information on new Kheops games so I did a quick look and it seems they are busy working on a casual game series. They just release part 2 of The Fall Trilogy available on Big Fish.
Its basically a mix of HOG with some puzzles thrown in.
I don't know why Kheops doesn't make a more puzzle-oriented casual game, like Azada. Kheops' own Safecracker has more similarities to Azada than to The Fall. I don't think we need another company to be making HOG's or "adventure lite" types that rely on finding and using inventory or information in order to progress in the game. (The Fall Part 2 had more of this than Part 1). Other companies seem to do a better job with balancing that type of gameplay than Kheops has so far. But a casual game like Azada is a rarity as well as a popular game (despite complaints about the timed aspect, which should have been optional).
Originally Posted By InlandAZ (13 NOV 2010 4:51pm)
Tough economic times = Hog's.
Yes, but isn't Frogwares still working on a Sherlock game for PC as well as XBox360 and PS3? Maybe they'll make an adventure after that if the economy ever gets better.
Originally Posted By Camaroboy1968 (13 NOV 2010 6:29pm)
I can't say it's a crushing blow, but even City Interactive has moved on towards the markets bearing larger profits. Even with their faults, I bought and played all their adventure games and personally will miss them.
I don't know if they've "moved on" so much as that casual games are all they can afford to make at the moment. I think they'd rather be working on adventure games, and maybe they will if the world economy ever recovers.
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 9:29pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (13 NOV 2010 3:27pm)
While I don't see them as being dead by any means, I feel pretty confident in saying that I think we are at an all-time low.
How can you say something like that?
The last two years were an obvious high-point of the entire decade. I'm talking here about the amount of interesting new adventure game titles released (including releases we were waiting for years to happen!) and about how successful they (or at least some of them) were. In fact I think Frogwares and Kheops might have had to scale down because of the great amounts of competition that suddenly appeared on the adventure game market - you see what's good for the player is not always good for particular companies. Nevertheless, Kheops did make Return to Mysterious Island 2 recently and Frogwares is preparing another full-fledged Sherlock Holmes adventure game. If concurrently they can also make money from casual games I'm all for that.
Not that casual games are such vastly safer market than adventure games. The Casebook games, for example, have seen much more success among adventure gamers than the casual ones.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 10:05pm |
| Deleted User | I am a dyed in the wool conservative A-Gamer who only plays Quest and puzzle adventures. I would be devastated if they were ever to be discontinued.
I understand that the financial incentives are not very bright for QAs – Money makes the world go around, world go around etc,
But I don't think I'll play HOGs. I've played a few and am not thrilled – understatement.
I read on Gameboomers that MDNA Games, Swedish Mikael Nyqvist's, 7th Carol Reed Mystery called
Blue Madonna is being beta tested and aill definitely be released for sale in about 3 weeks or earlier.
May as well flog a dead horse – or maybe only a dying one, as posted on the forum here.
If you are in need of a terrific extra long classic style Quest and puzzle game, why not try Treasured Medallion, and save money to boot?
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 10:15pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By ohdannyboy11 (13 NOV 2010 10:05pm)
I read on Gameboomers that MDNA Games, Swedish Mikael Nyqvist's, 7th Carol Reed Mystery called
Blue Madonna is being beta tested and aill definitely be released for sale in about 3 weeks or earlier.
May as well flog a dead horse – or maybe only a dying one, as posted on the forum here.
If you are in need of a terrific extra long classic style Quest and puzzle game, why not try Treasured Medallion, and save money to boot?
Nice to see you supporting the less flashy and lesser known independent productions, ohdannyboy.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 13 NOV 2010 at 11:50pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Maybe adventures are just looking for a new direction. There have been in the past couple of years some experimental projects that presented fresh, innovative forms of playing, some saw success others did not, but they were all intriguing. I'm a little behind on things and I'm sure there are a lot more stuff (like that Machinarium game and its relatives, also The Whispered World looks awesome).
On the less successful side there's The Experiment (which also has another name). I only played the demo mind you, but it definitely piqued my interest. It was certainly original and though it suffered from flaws and rough edges (and a much smaller budget than the other game I'm about to mention) the reviews were decent. Sadly I never got to playing the full version.
The next one is Portal (the modern one, not the one from the 80s!). Now I know that whether it constitutes an Adventure or not is debated and in dispute, nevertheless it's one of the more interesting titles in recent years. Not an Adventure but certainly not an FPS, it's some sort of an unprecedented creature, though some would not hesitate to cast it into the "puzzle game" category. I wouldn't.
Add to that the fact Portal was created by the same company as Half-Life and has close relations to that game, which I personally resented for many years [because it was when everyone around me wouldn't stop talking about it and its evil spawn Counter-Strike that I realised the rules of the... game have changed and Adventures have been completely overshadowed by the FPSs :-/] and you get an interesting phenomenon. I wouldn't even call Portal a hybrid - to me it's that unique.
I would never stop playing and enjoying good ole point-n-clicks. But I also wouldn't mind seeing more innovative stuff (and I haven't even mentioned the DS and wii. I'm so out of touch).
Speaking of which, I stumbled upon this odd little freeware (previously non-freeware) game called The Eye of the Kraken. It's quirky and whimsical but also charming and quite fun and even intriguing. I played with my sister for the first time in many years and we both enjoyed it immensely. Unfortunately she had to return to Tel Aviv before we completed it together and I finished it on my own. The interesting thing - the creators of the game (two of them at least) make a cameo appearance in the game (there's word name for when an author puts him/herself into the story - how it's called?!) and then also at the rolling credits, and ironically they're contemplating whether or not to make a sequel for the game, appropriate since the story wasn't over yet and it ended on a semi-cliffhanger. One of their consideration?
Profitability of the current game. :-/ I guess that wasn't satisfied since it's been 8 years now (it was released in 2002) and still no sequel, for shame. :'(
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 12:16am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5536
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Very depressing to hear, Ivinia. Just a few years ago I thought the adventure game situation couldn't get worse short of complete extinction. Then the HOG's came. Now HOG's are something like tribbles, one or two every once in awhile are kind of fun. But then they spread like tribbles and now we're overrun with them, with most of them being mediocre at best.
And regarding Telltale Games, as much as I've enjoyed their games, and hoped they would expand beyond producing episodes, I can't see them moving away from the episodic framework. Making full sized games would probably destroy their business model. And it's apparently been quite successful, so I imagine they have no good reason to change anything. :-/
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 1:41am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (13 NOV 2010 9:28pm)
Originally Posted By Ivinia (13 NOV 2010 3:27pm)
While I don't see them as being dead by any means, I feel pretty confident in saying that I think we are at an all-time low.
How can you say something like that?
The last two years were an obvious high-point of the entire decade. I'm talking here about the amount of interesting new adventure game titles released (including releases we were waiting for years to happen!) and about how successful they (or at least some of them) were.
Whoa there buddy...
Never said anything about there not being interesting titles released. An interesting title does not make a good AG however. When people pop in here looking for a good AG to play, the results seem to be filled with nothing but old games.
I have no idea how you can say the last two years were the highpoint of the decade. Maybe I'm living in a box, but can you name me titles from within the last 2 years that beat Syberia (2002) , Syberia 2(2004), Myst 4 (2004), Scratches (2006), Secret Files: Tunguska(2006), The Lost Crown (2008 - beginning of, making it more than 2 and a half years ago), Aura (2004) or The Black Mirror (2003)?
I haven't seen nor heard of a must-have game in years. There's lots of hope and promise with new titles, but they always seem to fall flat.
Even Gray Matter has me thinking it will never live up to the hype or anticipation. Sadly, most of that hype is from people who can't wait for the game and are going by Jane's reputation alone.
While she deservedly earned her reputation, I suspect she would prefer to have people base the game on its own merits. With people shooting it into the stratosphere because Jane did it before it even comes out, it can only lead to disappointment.
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 1:44am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 NOV 2010 5:49pm)
Closely related recent thread:
http://justadventure.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1288907289
Saw that and agree wholeheartedly. In particular in regards to things no longer being special. Its all disposable now. The quest of searching store shelves for a hidden gem of a game are long gone I think.
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 2:57am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Yes, but isn't Frogwares still working on a Sherlock game for PC as well as XBox360 and PS3? Maybe they'll make an adventure after that if the economy ever gets better.
Yes they are, its The Testament of Sherlock Holmes, but the outlook looks pretty bleak after that. At least for the time being.
I sure hope they reconsider when things pick up. I'm just not ready to go back to consoles.
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 3:06am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (13 NOV 2010 9:28pm)
Originally Posted By Ivinia (13 NOV 2010 3:27pm)
While I don't see them as being dead by any means, I feel pretty confident in saying that I think we are at an all-time low.
How can you say something like that?
The last two years were an obvious high-point of the entire decade...
I'm just sort of speechless. I haven't seen much of anything worth buying for the last 2 years and anything I did buy (eg. Machinarium) was only of passing interest.
The only remotely good sign of hope on the AG horizon is some of the old games and a few new ones being released on the iPad.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 3:09am |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (14 NOV 2010 1:41am)
Never said anything about there not being interesting titles released. An interesting title does not make a good AG however. When people pop in here looking for a good AG to play, the results seem to be filled with nothing but old games.
It seems to me that in your original post you mixed up the worries for the state of the adventure games market with disappointment over not getting new AG titles that are exactly to your personal taste. These are two separate things.
I don't think there's a point in arguing which games of the last decade are the best, because it's all a matter of taste. For example, I didn't like Myst 4 even though I'm a big fan of the previous games in the series. And I know there are lots of adventure game fans that despise Myst kind of games in general, or even don't consider them to be adventure games at all. But I hope we can all remain friends despite that.
So my point from the previous post was limited to the state of the adventure games market - to how well is the genre doing financially.
At the moment many long awaited adventure games are appearing (Monkey Island 5, Gray Matter, Machinarium, The Whispered World, Blackwell Convergence) and are much more popular in the mainstream than anything else in the last decade, which benefits the companies that release them, as well as the entire genre.
Similarly, independent adventure games are flourishing and receive notable awards, freeware adventure games reach unprecedented quality and media attention. Budgets are getting bigger, the amount of new releases is much larger, and even the new generation of Interactive Fiction is currently enjoying a a lot of attention and unexpected funding.
Can you beat THAT?
I just hope things will keep going this good in the coming years.
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 6:44am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Wow, just wow...
You are right. It's me who mixed it all up (any just about everyone else who replied to this thread). :
My personal taste is an interesting comment to make. Myst 4 and Aura (heavy on the puzzles, solo - 1st person), Lost Crown (Horror,lots of conversations and long story filled with mini stories, lots of characters - 3rd person), Scratches (Horror, solo - 1st person), Tunguska (Conspiracy, lots of characters - 3rd person), Black Mirror (Dark, lots of characters - 3rd person)... I also loved Runaway (Cartoon, lots of characters - 3rd person). Mind telling me what my personal tastes are?
As far as the state of the adventure game market goes, that is kind of funny. Considering the games used to go for $50 with multi-million dollar budgets and did well and now they have dipped to below $10 with a small team on a limited budget, I'd hardly consider that a sign that the genre is doing well financially. Especially when you consider that most of the games are significantly smaller and play out in less than a few hours.
How can you make a statement that MI5, Gray Matter, Machinarium, The Whisper World and Blackwell Convergence are much more popular in the mainstream than anything else in the last decade? Do you have sales figures to support that? Keep in mind that games now are even cheaper than ever as well. I don't know who is filling your head with this stuff, but you need to quit drinking that Kool-Aid.
Independent AGs are flourishing? More than before? What are you talking about? Ask yourself this, are these games getting notable awards and media attention because they are that good or because there is nothing else out there in the AG genre to talk about or competing for an award? I'm not here to rip on the freeware developers. There's a lot of really good talent out there (Dave Gilbert comes to mind - although he isn't freeware anymore). But to say they have reached unprecedented quality has me scratching my head. By what standards? Mid 1990's?
Look dude, 2009 saw 71 releases which is more than any other year in the last decade other than 2001 which had 78. Considering that 2 games make up 9 of those 71 because they came out in chunks as episodes and, after a quick scan of the list, around 7 more of them are HOGs with an AG feel, that puts the count to a realistic upper 50's which is right in the average per year of the last decade. So far in 2010, there have been 41 games released according to Pagoda and even that list has episodic games in the mix. Please explain how you can sit there and say that the amount of new releases is much larger.
I just hope things will keep going this good in the coming years.
I sure hope not based on what you consider as good. There are only three games that I am looking forward to at the moment - Asylum, The Last Crown and Bracken Tor. The best part is that these are the first games I've been looking forward to in years.
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 12:53pm |
Igor HardyIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 67
Joined: 27 SEP 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (14 NOV 2010 6:44am)
Look dude, 2009 saw 71 releases which is more than any other year in the last decade other than 2001 which had 78. Considering that 2 games make up 9 of those 71 because they came out in chunks as episodes and, after a quick scan of the list, around 7 more of them are HOGs with an AG feel, that puts the count to a realistic upper 50's which is right in the average per year of the last decade.
Because we both agreed Pagoda will be our reference source for the amount of adventure game releases each year, right? :
And please check your math before you try doing any more comparisons. You subtracted the number of HOGs and episodic games from the total number of releases, but only for the year that had too many releases to fit into your theory.
How can you make a statement that MI5, Gray Matter, Machinarium, The Whisper World and Blackwell Convergence are much more popular in the mainstream than anything else in the last decade? Do you have sales figures to support that? Keep in mind that games now are even cheaper than ever as well. I don't know who is filling your head with this stuff, but you need to quit drinking that Kool-Aid.
Considering the games used to go for $50 with multi-million dollar budgets and did well and now they have dipped to below $10 with a small team on a limited budget, I'd hardly consider that a sign that the genre is doing well financially.
*sigh* The sign the games are doing well financially is that their creators talk about it openly. Also, for most of the recent successful titles there are already announced sequels or new games in similar style. The Book of Unwritten Tales and Edna & Harvey already have sequels in the making despite not having international releases yet. Clearly this wouldn't be the case, if they had lost money.
So please, don't be bitter about the state of adventure games market, because there isn't any reason to be. As you are an open-minded gamer who likes of sorts of adventure games, you should try out more of the new releases - there are some really good titles out there.
But if you want to just stick to the creators and series you like, here are some recent and upcoming titles you apparently missed:
Dark Fall 3
Secret Files 2 and 3
Black Mirror 2 and 3
Alter Ego
Runaway 3
The Next Big Thing
Covering independent adventure games in [URL=http://hardydev.com/][B]A Hardy Developer's Journal[/B][/URL]
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 7:12pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4939
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (14 NOV 2010 12:53pm)
And please check your math before you try doing any more comparisons....
*sigh* The sign the games are doing well financially is that their creators talk about it openly...
So please, don't be bitter about the state of adventure games market, because there isn't any reason to be. As you are an open-minded gamer who likes of sorts of adventure games, you should try out more of the new releases - there are some really good titles out there.
But if you want to just stick to the creators and series you like, here are some recent and upcoming titles you apparently missed:
Dark Fall 3
Secret Files 2 and 3
Black Mirror 2 and 3
Alter Ego
Runaway 3
The Next Big Thing
Having decreed that 'The last two years were an obvious high-point of the entire decade...', you're only adding insult on injury with the above. It's one thing to take a position that there are still a few AGs being released that are of interest; it's another to put lipstick on a pig.
The games listed above are not exactly a reason to make one foam at the mouth over what is to come. Those of us who have followed adventure games for the last 10-15 years, or more, have been used to having many new and exciting releases every year (and by reasonably well-funded and experienced vendors/developers)... until 3 or 4 years ago (although even then, the situation was noticeably deteriorating).
The fact that you seem to think that we are in the midst of some sort of explosion of output leads me to believe that your experience doesn't go back very far. What we are only seeing now is a combination of output from very small & limited indies and a trickle from developers on the level of Kheops. I don't know of any regular, long-standing adventure game players who frequent the 3 main forums who think that things are anywhere near the rosey picture you paint. It's time to dial it down and be real.
Having said all that, I will repeat what I've said before, ad nauseum, since the day the release of the Apple iPad was first announced: This new hardware platform may well be the shot in the arm that AGs need. The apparent resurrection of Trilobyte is one example. The re-release of older games such as 7th Guest on a platform that is ideal for them could well ensnare a whole new generation of adventure game players and make the development of new, high-quality AGs more worthwhile.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 7:38pm |
loobilooPrivate Detective
Posts : 598
Joined: 3 APR 2008
Location: UK
Status : Offline | I just had a quick look at the Pagoda site - not to decry any of the games listed but there are a couple of 'casual games' listed that don't belong, there are lots of episodes of various games plus at least a couple of games for download only. I may be wrong but I'm not aware of Secret Files 3 or Black Mirror 3 being available at the moment & I don't hold my breath for games that are in the making because there are quite a long list of those that haven't & likely won't materialise! I know from my pocket that I haven't bought quite so many games over the last two years - I'm not a great fan of downloads & I think there have been far fewer games available boxed!
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| 14 NOV 2010 at 9:13pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By IgorHardy (14 NOV 2010 12:53pm)
And please check your math before you try doing any more comparisons. You subtracted the number of HOGs and episodic games from the total number of releases, but only for the year that had too many releases to fit into your theory.
Ivinia mentioned 2009, 2010, and 2001.
There weren't any episodic releases or HOGs in 2001.
We didn't start to get all the episodic releases from Telltale until 2006, with the Sam & Max games. The earliest HOGs (like Hidden Expedition: Titanic) first started to appear around 2006, but as far as I can tell, Pagoda didn't include casual games until 2009, when it began including casual games like 3 Cards to Midnight, Drawn: The Painted Tower, Dream Chronicles 3, The Fall Trilogy part 1, Hidden Mysteries: Titanic - Secrets of the Fateful Voyage, and several others. So there wouldn't be any HOGs to subtract from Pagoda game lists previous to 2009, and there wouldn't be any episodic duplicates to subtract from lists previous to 2006.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 4:34am |
AvakaJourneyman
Posts : 1437
Joined: 17 SEP 2003
Status : Online | I can't take it any more!!!!
There....I feel much better.....
Now, what the heck are HOGS?????
Thank you : :-[ :-*
Myst IV - Never finished it. Got frustrated with it.&&Myst V - Did not finish it either. Very disappointing.&&ATTWN - BORING!!! Never finished it. Kept falling asleep.&&Paradise - So far .... not so good&&Voyage - Not on my favorite list
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 4:41am |
BrianSpace Cadet
Posts : 117
Joined: 28 SEP 2010
Status : Offline | By visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hog I was able to deduce that HOGs are "hidden object games" -- which are apparently popular right now for some reason.
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 4:42am |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By AVAKA (15 NOV 2010 4:34am)
I can't take it any more!!!!
There....I feel much better.....
Now, what the heck are HOGS?????
Thank you : :-[ :-*
Pigs...or Motorcycles.
Just kidding, HOGS = Hidden Object Games.
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 15 NOV 2010 at 5:44am |
| Deleted User | HOGS, (chuckling) yes I for one do know what they are. Fessing up I recently bought and played through Penny Dreadfuls Sweeney Todd. OK, well first off the game description does seem to indicate that there are adventure game elements to the play through, hmm, interesting and so why not, I should at least give myself the liberty to take a look, what's the harm. (sigh, trying to remember the elements...oh yes some areas do have more hot spots as you progress through the game)
• Unravel the mystery of murderous barber Sweeney Todd and the neighboring bakery?s suspicious yet delicious meat pie recipe
• Explore dreary London solving puzzles and searching for clues to a litany of dubious disappearances!
• Solve puzzles to bring Sweeney Todd to justice!
Yup, I did all this in about eight hours. Even thought the story itself seemed interesting on some level, the many instances where you need to find all the objects (plot related) seemed to give me a headache. No more HOGS for me.
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