| 20 SEP 2010 at 10:37pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5536
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | I find GOG's new statement almost as puzzling as the first. Of course "many users didn't manage to download all their games". I never planned to keep more of my GOG purchases on my hard drive than I wanted to play at the moment, and I'm sure many other people did the same.
And now they claim they'll let us download our games as often as we need. So perhaps we won't have to backup all our games, but as vague as they are overall about what's going on, I don't know what to believe.
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| 20 SEP 2010 at 11:01pm |
MissBSchattenjger
Posts : 2217
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Well, isn't that just perfect....just bought 4 games over the weekend. Very disappointed...
My name is Bethany and I'm the daughter of Gamergal/Michelle.
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| 20 SEP 2010 at 11:18pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | I'd been planning to get the DRM-free version of Still Life from GOG. No chance of that now.
But I found Still Life at dotemu.com and bought it immediately, just in case the same thing that happened to GOG happens to Dotemu. Dotemu says it is DRM-free, and seems to be a European equivalent of GOG, though it doesn't have as large a selection of games.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 3:41am |
Pygmy_MarmosetIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 18 JUL 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (20 SEP 2010 5:05am)
Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (20 SEP 2010 4:04am)
It boggles my mind that people are still paying for older games in this day and age.
And DVDs of older movies, CDs of older albums and any other vehicles of older entertainment should be free for ole P.Marmoset!
What about DVDs and CDs where everyone who made it has died? Like what if I wanted to get a Jimi Hendrix CD? I don't think if I bought it the money would go to Jimi Hendrix since that would be impossible, instead it goes to the parasites in the media industry who have claimed all this "property" for their own.
Same thing if you buy a game made in the 1990s. Even though they're not dead, I guarantee you the people who made the game get nothing when you buy it.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:37am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (21 SEP 2010 3:40am)
Originally Posted By SirDave (20 SEP 2010 5:05am)
Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (20 SEP 2010 4:04am)
It boggles my mind that people are still paying for older games in this day and age.
And DVDs of older movies, CDs of older albums and any other vehicles of older entertainment should be free for ole P.Marmoset!
What about DVDs and CDs where everyone who made it has died? Like what if I wanted to get a Jimi Hendrix CD? I don't think if I bought it the money would go to Jimi Hendrix since that would be impossible, instead it goes to the parasites in the media industry who have claimed all this "property" for their own.
Same thing if you buy a game made in the 1990s. Even though they're not dead, I guarantee you the people who made the game get nothing when you buy it.
Unbelievable.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:38am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (21 SEP 2010 3:40am)
Originally Posted By SirDave (20 SEP 2010 5:05am)
Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (20 SEP 2010 4:04am)
It boggles my mind that people are still paying for older games in this day and age.
And DVDs of older movies, CDs of older albums and any other vehicles of older entertainment should be free for ole P.Marmoset!
What about DVDs and CDs where everyone who made it has died? Like what if I wanted to get a Jimi Hendrix CD? I don't think if I bought it the money would go to Jimi Hendrix since that would be impossible, instead it goes to the parasites in the media industry who have claimed all this "property" for their own.
Same thing if you buy a game made in the 1990s. Even though they're not dead, I guarantee you the people who made the game get nothing when you buy it.
You're wrong there, plenty of the older games and indie titles on gog (IE Disciples I/II, etc) the money goes to the developer/person who made the game.
Not all of them of course, lots of times it goes to the publisher who owns the IP if the dev went under or didn't own their own ip.
However some developers maintain and own their own IP still. Publishers don't own all the ips that they publish.
Also regarding people that have died and their works. There is a limit on the time (hence why some really older music, movies, etc and such is free and open) however after the person dies, if they owned their own rights it passes on to a family member or to whom they wish it to.
In turn their loved ones get the royalities and things. So while you d/l it, even though the money wouldn't go to that person, it coujld very well have been going to someoen that they cared for and wanted to support in this lifetime (like their children or spouse).
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 7:30am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | If someone owns the rights to intellectual property, that means that they either earned it, bought it, inherited it, or whatever might be the case, via legal means. If you pirate it, you are breaking the law. It's as simple as that.
We could all go around saying that clothes designers and manufacturers are parasites, and therefore it is ok to shoplift yourself some clothes - but whatever your ideas on the morality or not of people working and creating things to earn their cash and then spending that cash, in the end shoplifting, robbery, stealing and pirating are all against the law.
I'm not a total innocent, I might have done little "white thefts" : myself - such as keeping something like a set of 3-D glasses that you were supposed to return to the cinema, for instance, and perhaps copying a game or two from a friend that I couldn't afford to buy at the time (yes, that was piracy, theft - it was stealing) - but I'm not going around trying to justify my theft and trying to make out as if stealing is ok.
If it is against the law, it is against the law, and you cannot go around publicly promoting behaviour that is against the law. Unless, of course, you are a radical communist and want to start lobbying about ownership laws. - but then you need to get the law changed first, and public consensus about your POV.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 10:23am |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | I can understand if someone pirates something that is not available to buy anywhere (like say download a game from an abandonware site). While this is technically speaking a crime, I don't have any moral objections to it, same with some older console games (again, it is illegal, but I don't find it immoral, although if the games are re-released on a modern console (like through Wii virtual console or on Xbox live), then you should of course buy it there).
I don't really agree with the comparison between piracy & shoplifting. When you shoplift you take a physical item (with its associated production cost) while when you pirate something you don't add to any expenses (but you remove income).
But, if something is still available, like through steam or in stores, then you should pay for it.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 3:35pm |
KoriSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 399
Joined: 27 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | The word ‘older’ seems to be the magic word that makes stealing acceptable to some people.
I like to watch classic movies from the fifties and sixties. I also like to read novels from the same period. I pay for both the classic movies I watch and the books I read.
Putting the word ‘older’ in front of the thing you are stealing makes no difference. Stealing is stealing. Even if the author is not making a dime, the producer is offering a valuable service by keeping it (book, movie, game, etc.) on the market for consumers.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 4:25pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | New youtube video message,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRvuKjissQ
It appears it IS a marketing ploy. Mainly because in the video, at the 11-12'ish sec mark, you see the Balder's Gate series, which is not on gog at the moment.
So it looks like they are going to come back Wed/Thursday into full release with some new games from peoples most anticipated lists.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 4:58pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (21 SEP 2010 7:30am)
I'm not a total innocent, I might have done little "white thefts" : myself - such as keeping something like a set of 3-D glasses that you were supposed to return to the cinema, for instance, and perhaps copying a game or two from a friend that I couldn't afford to buy at the time (yes, that was piracy, theft - it was stealing) - but I'm not going around trying to justify my theft and trying to make out as if stealing is ok.
Say 7 'hail Marys' and 12 'our Fathers' and go sin no more Trav.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:00pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (21 SEP 2010 10:23am)
I can understand if someone pirates something that is not available to buy anywhere (like say download a game from an abandonware site). Yes, I agree with that. If it really isn't availble or is true abandonware.
I don't really agree with the comparison between piracy & shoplifting. When you shoplift you take a physical item (with its associated production cost) while when you pirate something you don't add to any expenses (but you remove income).
A writer or singer or composer or game designer still incurred the circumstantial costs of not being able to do other work or earn income in another way because of the time spent creating the product that is pirated, just a as the designer of clothing or fabrics does in designing that item. The publishers invested hard cash in buying the intellectual property such as books, songs or games, and additional costs in marketing and distributing the songs, books or games.
In the case of games and movies, salaries had to be paid, equipment had to be paid for, etc. in the making of the movie or game.
If everybody just pirated movies and games, for instance, everybody involved in designing, "manufacturing" and marketing the game/movie loses their investment in the same way as when a physical item is removed without being paid for that had cost money to design, manufacture and market.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:19pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (21 SEP 2010 4:25pm)
New youtube video message,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRvuKjissQ
It appears it IS a marketing ploy. Mainly because in the video, at the 11-12'ish sec mark, you see the Balder's Gate series, which is not on gog at the moment.
So it looks like they are going to come back Wed/Thursday into full release with some new games from peoples most anticipated lists.
I think you're right.
We'll find out tomorrow for sure (unless they intend to string us along a while longer).
But I think they'll be coming back with new restrictions as well as new games -- probably the only way they could get certain publishers to let them offer the games.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:24pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Kori (21 SEP 2010 3:34pm)
The word ‘older’ seems to be the magic word that makes stealing acceptable to some people.
I like to watch classic movies from the fifties and sixties. I also like to read novels from the same period. I pay for both the classic movies I watch and the books I read.
Putting the word ‘older’ in front of the thing you are stealing makes no difference. Stealing is stealing. Even if the author is not making a dime, the producer is offering a valuable service by keeping it (book, movie, game, etc.) on the market for consumers.
I don't mind downloading free e-books of books from one or two centuries ago, that is now in the public domain. However, there's a big difference between something from, say, 1890 and something from 1990 - about 100 year's difference...
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (21 SEP 2010 5:19pm)
But I think they'll be coming back with new restrictions as well as new games -- probably the only way they could get certain publishers to let them offer the games.
I truly hope not.. :-/
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 5:43pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | It is more a matter of direct or indirect harm. The end result is the same, but I would still like to differ between stealing a physical copy and copying it. And I'm not for piracy.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 6:04pm |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (21 SEP 2010 5:43pm)
It is more a matter of direct or indirect harm. The end result is the same, but I would still like to differ between stealing a physical copy and copying it. And I'm not for piracy.
Hmm, I think I see what you're saying: If you steal a physical copy, they could still have sold that copy, but if you simply copy it, at least you are not "lessening their stock" so to speak..
But still, what I am saying is that if everybody copied instead of buying up stock of physical game copies, the stock would just lie there and rot, and it would be wasted anyway - see what I mean?
So if only some ppl pay, the people who pay for it, are sponsoring the ones that don't. This won't apply so much for old games, but in the case of GOG, they add a valuable service; they remove DRM, and they make the game compatible with modern OS's and save the gamer a world of hassle. I hate spending hours and hours to get an older game to work and then it still crashes right in the middle of a puzzle.. [smiley=hair_pull.gif]
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 6:24pm |
markornikovJourneyman
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Posts : 1301
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (21 SEP 2010 4:25pm)
New youtube video message,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRvuKjissQ
It appears it IS a marketing ploy. Mainly because in the video, at the 11-12'ish sec mark, you see the Balder's Gate series, which is not on gog at the moment.
So it looks like they are going to come back Wed/Thursday into full release with some new games from peoples most anticipated lists.
if not, the video is quite insulting: thanks for giving us a chance to rip you off :
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 7:28pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1458
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Online | Not sure how they ripped off anyone, when the site went down they clearly said anyone would be able to re download their games and everything still come thursday.
As far as DRM goes, to make it have it now would fly into the face of what they stood for.
I mean, the entire point of gog is selling older games vs pirating them. Why would someone pay money, for an old title that can prolly be had on ebay for <5 bucks) and have it/copy it as they please, vs paying for it and having DRM tied to it/having to be online? Makes no sense to throw that red tape in tehre.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 8:15pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2751
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Hmm, I think I see what you're saying: If you steal a physical copy, they could still have sold that copy, but if you simply copy it, at least you are not "lessening their stock" so to speak..
Indeed, and a stolen copy always costs the company money, while a pirated copy is potentially lost money.
But still, what I am saying is that if everybody copied instead of buying up stock of physical game copies, the stock would just lie there and rot, and it would be wasted anyway - see what I mean?
Yes I do. They do print game copies based on an expected amount of sales, and they do take piracy into account, so as long as they meet their expected sales, very few copies will simply lite there and rot. If everyone were to start pirating games & movies instead of buying them, then that would of course be the end of the industry but that would not be an overnight change, and hopefully will never happen.
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| 21 SEP 2010 at 10:40pm |
markornikovJourneyman
Posts : 1301
Joined: 28 OCT 2011
Location: BE, Antwerp
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (21 SEP 2010 7:28pm)
Not sure how they ripped off anyone, when the site went down they clearly said anyone would be able to re download their games and everything still come thursday.
At this point we cannot download anything, i bought still life and didn't have the chance to download it.
Seeing how we have been treated by them the last few days, i'm not just going to take their word for it. >
Even if they put everything back online, my faith in them will not return anytime soon.
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| 22 SEP 2010 at 4:40am |
| Deleted User | As a GOG customer for the past two years, please don't take the high road and end your service now. Whatever deals you have had to make to keep your games DRM free, let us know and for that matter keep an I out for I am looking at the watch list for other games that have been included for your services.
I guess that tomorrow around 12:00 EST we will all get some info.
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| 22 SEP 2010 at 5:02am |
Pygmy_MarmosetIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 18 JUL 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By placeholder (21 SEP 2010 7:30am)
If you pirate it, you are breaking the law. It's as simple as that.
in the end shoplifting, robbery, stealing and pirating are all against the law.
If it is against the law, it is against the law, and you cannot go around publicly promoting behaviour that is against the law.
So if you had lived in the 1940s when Jim Crow laws were still around and it was illegal for blacks and whites to use the same water fountains and ride the same buses, you wouldn't have tried to promote equality because "segretation is the law".
What I'm getting at here is that societies' laws aren't always right. Have you heard of Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development? According to his theory people that judge wrong or right on whether "it's the law" have not fully developed their ethical identities. According to him you're stuck on level four, the law and order mentality. Fully developed people are on level six, in which, "laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws."
And before anyone starts complaining, I'm not trying to compare pirating games with systematic racism. All I'm saying is, if your reason for doing something or not is "It's the law" then that's not a very good reason.
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| 22 SEP 2010 at 5:17am |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2588
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | If this is, indeed, a marketing ploy, my respect for GOG has taken a sharp nosedive. From where I sit, you don't do this kind of thing to your customers and affiliates.
I mean, did GOG think folks would enjoy being treated this way and would be so grateful for the kick in the teeth that they'd grab all of their money, storm the site once it's back up and buy as many games as possible?
I wonder if GOG thinks it's a good thing to have potential customers click affiliate links and land on "oh, we're sorry, but we had to yank the site down without warning for some really good business and technical reasons despite the fact that some people were in the process of downloading something and others had paid but hadn't even started downloading when everything came crashing down, and you're probably really confused now, oh well, too bad, but don't worry, everyone can download stuff later, so everything is just fine blah-blah, la-di-da."
Come on...don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining. > If they do come back, they can count me out as a customer. This sort of thing really chaps my backside.
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| 22 SEP 2010 at 7:28am |
TravellerGuild Master
Posts : 4039
Joined: 3 JUL 2010
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JamesTheRogue (22 SEP 2010 5:02am)
Originally Posted By placeholder (21 SEP 2010 7:30am)
If you pirate it, you are breaking the law. It's as simple as that.
in the end shoplifting, robbery, stealing and pirating are all against the law.
If it is against the law, it is against the law, and you cannot go around publicly promoting behaviour that is against the law.
So if you had lived in the 1940s when Jim Crow laws were still around and it was illegal for blacks and whites to use the same water fountains and ride the same buses, you wouldn't have tried to promote equality because "segretation is the law".
What I'm getting at here is that societies' laws aren't always right. Have you heard of Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development? According to his theory people that judge wrong or right on whether "it's the law" have not fully developed their ethical identities. According to him you're stuck on level four, the law and order mentality. Fully developed people are on level six, in which, "laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws."
And before anyone starts complaining, I'm not trying to compare pirating games with systematic racism. All I'm saying is, if your reason for doing something or not is "It's the law" then that's not a very good reason.
I think you might have misunderstood what I said there. I said that it is currently still illegal, and if you feel that the law is wrong, you should lobby and fight to have the law changed. However, that would be the end of capitalist society. That is actually what the communists did - [s]they fought against laws that said people should be rewarded according to how society judges their endeavours[/s], (on second thought, the early communists fought against a capitalism still tainted by feudalism) and we've all seen by now that communism doesn't work. People are much better motivated by the carrot than by the stick to create and work.
EDIT: Oh, ok, - I see that I had not voiced this sentence very eloquently: "If it is against the law, it is against the law, and you cannot go around publicly promoting behaviour that is against the law." I should have added there: "unless it is from a political platform, and you truly believe that the law negatively impacts on society, in which case you need to state reasons good enough that it will convince enough people to lobby alongside you to have the law changed. As happened with the laws allowing slavery for instance - a bloody war was fought to have that law changed, because enough people had a deep conviction that it violated some of the most basic human rights.
Fnord said it all:
Originally Posted By Fnord (21 SEP 2010 8:14pm)
[highlight]If everyone were to start pirating games & movies instead of buying them, then that would of course be the end of the industry [/highlight]but that would not be an overnight change, and hopefully will never happen.
Now that is my main reason for feeling that the law that protects intellectual property is a good law. It costs money to make games, and if everybody agreed with you that it is fine to pirate games, and we all simply pirated all our games, those people making the games will not be motivated to make games anymore – no more new games will appear on the market, and you and I will be forced to replay old games in the end.
And no, as people who have been on this site longer will know, I definitely am not either a prude or a slavish follower of the ruling status quo – few people are more rebellious and apt to test a given status quo. For instance, we have had discussions about the letter of the law before – and also about “customs” and how certain behaviours are not necessarily right just because they are laws or customs – for instance you had ritual child sacrifice in many societies – but does that make it morally defensible? (See the off-topic thread about whaling – I used to be “Traveller” on the forum).
Another long discussion we had on this forum a few years ago was about prostitution and I was one of those who argued it is a silly law that prohibits it, - I see no rhyme or reason in such a law.
In the case of piracy, though, I do believe that piracy in general is morally indefensible for many reasons, not only moral but practical too. According to my personal philosophy, rules and laws should only exist to oil the cogs of society, and in this case, this rule is positively functional: not only does piracy rob some people of what is rightfully theirs- of what they worked for, but also, if everybody preached and practiced that it is good and right to do it, it would mean the death of the gaming industry. I wouldn’t have any more new games to play, and I wouldn’t be too happy about that…
On the other hand, if for some reason you feel that this law should be scrapped, you should work on a political level to have it abolished. ..and before you manage to achieve that the law be changed/removed, you are still breaking the law. I have seldom heard a thief’s lawyer argue that the thief’s misdemeanours should be excused because the laws against theft are wrong.
* * * Just call me Trav. * * *
“Despite my ghoulish reputation, I really have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.” - Robert Bloch
"They are not reciprocally sublated--the one does not sublate the other externally--but each sublates itself in itself and is in its own self the opposite of itself" (Hegel, from The Doctrine of Being)..."
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