| 12 MAR 2003 at 5:35pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Adventure Zwei (12 MAR 2003 5:07pm)
You know?
I heard Adventure developer (GK3's Scott Bilas) said that words - "Adventure is Dead" from magazine and web site - made their team feel severe morale problems.
If anybody has "Game Developer(6/2000)" , copy orginal GK3 development article for me. Plz.
I have the mag but you can't seriously expect me to copy the article for you! Do you know how much work that is? Especially since you can read the article here!
I forgot my sig.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 5:55pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (12 MAR 2003 5:20pm)
We didn't have 100 crappy adventures, we had 50 very good ones. Now we have 10 good ones. Thirty is really stretching it. The big-picture aspect of your subjective idea of quality is questionable. And btw, Salambo is not an adventure, at best a hybrid.
By reviewing ancient games like Myst 3 and Blade Runner. It isn't just you, many people are discussing older games. Mr. Bill did a review of Lost in Time. Now that's really ancient! Nice game, unique story, I liked it a lot, but the problems had text adventure written all over them, in spite of all the FMV.
I did. I always use Pagoda's excellent list as my reference point.
Betje
Salammbo a hybrid? Of what kind. The adventure/adventure kind of hybrid? Because I played the demo and there was no action at all. You say we had 50 very good ones. In 2002? Which ones are you talking about? Please don't use bubble talk.
I didn't say that Sweden is the big picture but when I will judge release dates then yes I will think about what I am able to see in my local stores. Because ordering a game accross the atlantic is definitely not what the game market is about. If it was like that then the game companies would never look for local publishers.
And since I see more and more adventures coming to the local stores in 2003 yes I consider 2003 a much better year than 2002. Zelenhgorm could be ordered in 2002 as you said but in the market and in local stores it came out in 2003.
What do you mean release date then? When a game is ready? What good does it do if it is ready but there's no possibility to buy it from a local store? How many people buy games from local stores and how many people buy games ordering across the atlantic?
First of all most of the 'ancient' adventures that were reviews in The Inventory were reviews-tributes. And apart from that all the games I have reviewed are available to purchase from local retailers. What about the 2,3 previews there are every month on the magazine. How many adventures do you buy anyway? For me 2 adventures per month are more than enough.
And I could review other adventures that are newer but given the choice of reviewing two games that are available on the market and the one is better than the other, then I would review the better one in order to promote it more.
Shadow of Memories was released in 2001? Where? Because in Sweden and in USA it was released last month (the PC version). Post Mortem was available in Europe and Canada in 2001. Is Europe and Canada the world? Because I happen to live in Europe you know and Post Mortem was released last month as well.
Well if 10 great games are being finished in 2003 and they are released in 2010 then I will consider 2010 a great year because that is when and most people will get to play them. You have a distorted definition of the word released.
I mentioned to you so many great games for 2003 but you didn't even take time to mention even some of your 50 or 20 or I don't know how many they are going to be next time very good adventures of the 2002.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 6:42pm |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | I think Betje is right on this one. People are seriously lowering their standards to make statements like "20 great adventures have come out in the last year." Plus, you have to put things in perspective. If you're using fan-made games and games of somewhat dubious quality in your "recent great adventures" list in order to get that list up in the 20s, the list's integrity is compromised, and your argument that "the genre isn't on its deathbed" is no longer valid.
See, if you use those standards to come up with 20 "great" adventures over the last couple years, I can come up with a list of probably 100 "great" action games to come out within the same timespan, and the quantity loses all meaning. Anyway, here's my list of the "great" adventure games to come out within the last 3 years. These are games that had lasting appeal and recieved industry-wide accolades:
The Longest Journey
Syberia
THAT IS IT. THAT IS THE WHOLE DAMN LIST.
Maybe you'd like to include a couple others like Myst 3 (if you're into that sort of thing) but objectively, this list isn't gonna get much bigger and I could write a list 5-10 times that size for nearly any other genre. I love adventure games, but we gotta face facts, the genre is in a coma. We just have to hope it wakes up soon.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 6:57pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Let's say that indeed Syberia and TLJ were the only good adventures the last three years. (I disagree actually because I thought KQ2 was an excellent adventure).
Did I say that all the 20 adventures I wrote are going to be great. Read again, cause you read wrong. I said that most of them look rather promising and much better than the games not in the da*n list you made.
Runaway and the Black Mirror have gotten rave reviews in the countries they have been released. You can come up with as many great action games as you like. In the long run my personal opinion will be that they are all going to suck cause I hate action stupid shoot at everything that moves games.
If you don't appreciate fan made adventures you miss out on some of the best adventures. KQ2 was a blast and I am sure QFG2 remake and Indiana Jones FOY are going to be blasts as well. Ozzie was highly entertaining also. Some people describe Dark Fall as one of the most immersive and scary adventures they ever played (I have no opinion on that since I haven't played it yet).
And btw since it seems like you didn't read my posts correct, I say again that yes a couple of years ago it was a shitty period for adventures but since Syberia and TLJ developers have finally woken up.
It seems like you don't even know what is in store for the adventure genre. Syberia 2 and TLJ 2 are being made already btw... when was the last time you saw adventures developed for the first time in the last 6 years get a sequel?
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 7:46pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 5:55pm)
Salammbo a hybrid? Of what kind.
I take it back. I had a look, must have been another game I was thinking of (although I didn't like what I saw, I hate 3D puppets and I won't be buying Salammbo).
You say we had 50 very good ones. In 2002? Which ones are you talking about? Please don't use bubble talk.
Nice word, bubble talk. But let's put things in perspective: YOU were talking about 100 crappy games (manner of speaking?) and my 50 good ones were directly related to your remark. But yes, there were 40-50 adventures a year released in the mid-nineties, most of them of very good quality.
Because ordering a game accross the atlantic is definitely not what the game market is about.
I'm not so sure about that! If I didn't buy games online I wouldn't play more than one or two games a year.
What do you mean release date then?
Finished, produced, marketed.
And apart from that all the games I have reviewed are available to purchase from local retailers.
Whose local retailers? Mine...?
Shadow of Memories was released in 2001? Where?
Japan, I presume.
You have a distorted definition of the word released.
It seems to me that you can't make up your mind what you mean by release: availability in your local store or availability world wide.
I mentioned to you so many great games for 2003 but you didn't even take time to mention even some of your 50 or 20 or I don't know how many they are going to be next time very good adventures of the 2002.
I was discussing your "big picture", remember? And I never said there were many very good adventures in 2002. On the contrary. But since you ask:
Verschollen auf lost island - Syberia - the Ring 2 - Mystery of the Mummy - Largo Winch - Jerusalem - Jazz & Faust - Chemicus - Simon 3 - Mystery of the Nautilus - 2 Nancy Drew games - Post Mortem - Zelenhgorm - Tony Tough - Cameron Files 2 - Law and Order.
Four or five good ones. Four or five bad ones. Rest mediocre.
Compare that to the at least 40-50 games in 1996:
Titanic - Zork Nemesis - Sherlock Holmes (Rose Tattoo) - Discworld 2 - Amber - Torin's Passage - Tex Murphy - Yellow Brick Road - Secrets of the Luxor - Ripper - Phantasmagoria - Lighthouse - Neverhood - Bad Day on the Midway - Blue Ice - Azraels Tear - Bad Mojo - Duckman - Toonstruck - Rama - Timelapse - Broken Sword 2 - Larry 7 - Gene machine - Gabriel Knight 2, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera
Notice any difference in both quantity and quality?
Betje
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 8:13pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Betje (12 MAR 2003 7:45pm)
Notice any difference in both quantity and quality?
Yes I do actually. The differences I note are 2
1)Both Syberia and KQ2 that you never even mentioned are superior to any of the games in the 1996 list (apart from GK2), while I haven't played Dark Fall, Tony Tough or the Nancy Drew games but people say they are great games...
2)The adventure games released nowadays are less than released in the past as it happens in all the genres. Why? Because quite simply in the past games didn't cost x millions of dollars to produce like it happens nowadays. This is the cost of evolution. If the fact that there are less adventure games being made than some years ago means that adventures are dead, then there are many genres that are quite dead.
Btw nobody ever called the sports genre as a dead genre. How many football games did you see this year for the PC. Or how many space/flight simulators. Wanna talk about quality? How many great RPGs have you played this year?
About SOM being released in Japan in 2001...good for the Japanese people. I don't live there so I'll put it up in the 2003 line-up of adventures . Sayonara...
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 8:22pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Dimitris, evolution has nothing to do with costs. Nowadays making a cool looking 3D game is very cheap with all the 3D API's available. Even licensing a 3D engine isn't that expensive at all.
In fact, your 2) point isn't very good - how many 3D shooters (which, save for a few cases, always have the cutting edge technollogy) are being released today in respect to 1994? If the costs are so steep nowadays, I don't understand why there are so many of them.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 8:34pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | In my second point I didn't even mention 3D shooters. I actually don't know if it is true whether there are more shooters being made nowadays than some years ago but even if it is true then it is probably because they are selling their asses off.
But in most other genres there are less games being made than in the past. And I don't know how much a 3D engine costs but hiring all the staff to sit down for 2,3 years and produce to you a top notch game must definitely cost loads more money than it did in the past. Add the voice actors, paying rights (i.e. football players, movie copyrights etc) and advertisements (how often did you see TV commercials for games in the past).
IIRC GK3 costed Sierra 4,000,000 dollars to make which I'd guess GK1 didn't cost.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 8:49pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 8:12pm)
2)The adventure games released nowadays are less than released in the past as it happens in all the genres.
You said that - 3D shooting is a genre.
But let's talk only about adventure games, shall we?
You talk about staff - the amount of people working in a single adventure game hasn't changed that much since, say, 1995 to now. Let's see - Phantasmagoria was a cutting edge adventure back in 1996. I bet it costed the same to develop (or even more) as Runaway, a top-notch adventure released just a couple of years ago. If you don't like the Phantasmagoria example, try Broken Sword or Full Throttle.
IIRC GK3 costed Sierra 4,000,000 dollars to make which I'd guess GK1 didn't cost.
Suppose I take that for granted - that's only one example.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 9:18pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | That games (in general) have been more expensive to develop than in the past is a well known fact. This whole age (from full throttle to Runaway) was a transition period and since companies saw that games have been more expensive to develop more and more of them stopped developing them and more and more started developing only mainstream titles that would bring the biggest benefits (like your 3D shooting games which btw is not a genre, action games is the genre you are talking about and 3D shooters are a part of them like Myst games or 3rd person adventures are parts of the adventure genre.)
The fact that Phantasmagoria might have costed more than Runaway doesn't rule out what I said (that less games are made cause they are more expensive to make). When the other adventure developers that year saw that they didn't make any profit because the competition (Broken Sword, Phantasmagoria and Full Throttle) kicked their ass, they went out of the picture.
This was just the beginning of a transition period as I said like all genres (ok with the exception of action games maybe, am not sure, don't keep stats on no of games made on each genre) have passed.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 9:27pm |
ConMolSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 396
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I didn't mind the article - I was only a little dissapointed that he didn't do a little more homework and list some other fan games such as the Kings Quest 1 and 2 remakes, or indie games like Dark Fall or Eye of the Kraken.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 9:47pm |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 9:17pm)
That games (in general) have been more expensive to develop than in the past is a well known fact. This whole age (from full throttle to Runaway) was a transition period and since companies saw that games have been more expensive to develop more and more of them stopped developing them and more and more started developing only mainstream titles that would bring the biggest benefits (like your 3D shooting games which btw is not a genre, action games is the genre you are talking about and 3D shooters are a part of them like Myst games or 3rd person adventures are parts of the adventure genre.)
That's sounds about right dimi...
However, technically you're right about Shooters but there are a lot of magazines, websites, and stores that have FPS Shooters as a separate genre...but that is getting too involved in ambigous word meaning and semantics and it's not worthy to discuss...
On with the Gamespot article...
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 9:52pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4949
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 8:12pm)
2)The adventure games released nowadays are less than released in the past as it happens in all the genres. Why? Because quite simply in the past games didn't cost x millions of dollars to produce like it happens nowadays. This is the cost of evolution
Dimi, with all due respect, IMHO, I don't agree with this the way you have phrased it. There have been a number of people that have analyzed the reasons why there are less AGs now and the most consistent reason was that the cost required to produce these games was not justified by ever-decreasing sales. And one of the main reasons sales decreased was the tremendous growth in other genres, specifically action-3D games that sucked away many of the buyers that used to buy adventure games and made more money as well.
Your statement implies that the tremendous cost of producing AGs is a recent event. In fact, according to developers I have talked to, the cost required to just get a game-development team going was at least 1/2 million in the 1996/1997 period. Companies didn't do well at all developing excellent games like Timelapse and Titanic, Adventures Out of Time (circa 1997/1998 ) and The Last Express (1997) has been called the game that bankrupted a company.
Actually, my understanding is that with the tremendous advance in development computer hardware and software, the cost of developing an AG, if carefully done, is not much different than 5 years ago!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 10:23pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 9:17pm)
That games (in general) have been more expensive to develop than in the past is a well known fact.
Sorry, you're generalizing too much. We should stick to adventures.
This whole age (from full throttle to Runaway) was a transition period and since companies saw that games have been more expensive to develop more and more of them stopped developing them and more and more started developing only mainstream titles that would bring the biggest benefits
OK, let's analyze this statement - take Lucasarts since it's a perfect example. Take all their adventure games released since Full Throttle - The Dig, CMI, Grim Fandango and EMI. I don't see why any of those games would cost much more to develop than the rest. I'd say they stopped developing them because there was demand for something else, not because of the cost.
(like your 3D shooting games which btw is not a genre, action games is the genre you are talking about and 3D shooters are a part of them like Myst games or 3rd person adventures are parts of the adventure genre.)
That is a funny statement. "3D shooting" might be a sub-genre of "action games" but it's a genre anyway. In any case, "action games" covers a very very wide range of games. Instead, "adventure games" is more specific. Talking about "action games" in this context would be generalizing too much and that's why I specifically mentioned "3D shooters".
This was just the beginning of a transition period as I said like all genres (ok with the exception of action games maybe, am not sure, don't keep stats on no of games made on each genre) have passed.
Well, since action games occupies the largest portion of the gaming market, maybe your original statement 2) wasn't that accurate at all.
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 10:27pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (12 MAR 2003 9:51pm)
Dimi, with all due respect, IMHO, I don't agree with this the way you have phrased it.
Hey SirDave,
You don't have to pay me respect or say that your opinion is humble. We are just adventure fans having a conversation
Well now on topic. I don't think that the sales of adventure games shrunk. I think they stayed stable while some other genres increased a lot and in comparison it seemed like they shrunk.
According to what I've heard GK2 (1996) sold 400,000, Monkey Island 3 (1998?) sold 500,000, TLJ (2000) sold more than 450,000 and Syberia has sold around 250,000 in its first year without the price being dropped and I'd guess it will reach the above numbers.
Of course we are not game financial analysts and we do not have enough arguments to support our statements so we resort (<-- is this the right word) to speculation.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 10:30pm |
| Deleted User | That games (in general) have been more expensive to develop than in the past is a well known fact.
How about KQ2VGA? Or do you only want me to mention that particular game when it suits you down to the ground...
Betje
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| 12 MAR 2003 at 10:58pm |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | First off, I dunno how the KQ2 remake could be considered a "great adventure." The KQ remakes are pleasant nolstalgic diversions, but not great adventures on their own. Costs have nothing to do with why adventure games aren't being produced anymore, demand just isn't what it used to be. The Adventure Company seems to be going for quantity over quality, and that's not helping matters at all. We can speculate all day as to how games from other countries and indy producers will do here, but I'm guessing people have been doing that for years and it hasn't produced more than a few great games yet. Over the last few years, the majority of adventure games to get any buzz have been mediocre dissapointments (Port Mortem, etc.)
The fact is that producers have changed their focus. I think it's sad that many of us have forced ourselves to lower our standards so much. Calling most of the stuff that is released these days "great" is an insult to the truly great adventures that have graced our computer screens over the last 15 years.
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| 13 MAR 2003 at 12:41am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4949
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Dimi said:
'You don't have to pay me respect or say that your opinion is humble. We are just adventure fans having a conversation'
Ah, you sly fox for noticing that I said:
'Dimi, with all due respect, IMHO, I don't agree with this the way you have phrased it.
I had noticed that, but thought no one else did so I didn't go back and change it. You might be interested in knowing that it was the result of my editing my original statement which was:
'Dimi, with all due respect, IMHO, this simply isn't true the way you have phrased it'.
I changed the 'this simply isn't true' because it sounded too blunt/opinionated, but forgot to take out the IMHO.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 MAR 2003 at 5:44am |
Adventure ZweiIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 21
Joined: 19 FEB 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By dimidimidimi (12 MAR 2003 9:17pm)
That games (in general) have been more expensive to develop than in the past is a well known fact.
That's absolutely right so the developer hesitate to make adventure games in Korea.
Once upon a time, if a talent developer had good idea and sense he could make a adventure game easier than now. Nowadays the game industry grow with a Complex mechanism.
Everybody know adventure game genre's present situation but we should not stick to the glorious era( maybe 1984~1997).
I mean although we(adventure game fan) thought 'today, many adventure games are dead comparing with past', we shouldn't say "Adventure games are dead" in public.
As I said, "Adventure games are dead" sounds like "Rock is dead". However, situation is totally different. The magazine said " Rock is dead" open but everybody listen to various Rock genre(Hard, Metal, Aleternative, Pimp...) because It's too easy to contact them.
It is difficult to contact adventure game because we should buy it first. so lots of people look into review, ranking and article before perchasing. If the powerful magazine like Gamespot say "Adventure games are dead and bone-dry" they believe it. I know the guy who write article loves adventure and tells some true but I think he shoudn't say extreme words easily.
I envy you guys in Europe, U.S, Canada. In korea, we have plentiful internet service so most of gamers interest in only multi player game.
In 2001, famous korean game compay made horror adventure "White day" (It's different style from Silent Hill and Alone in the dark).
[img]http://myst.cafe24.com/arcbox/atoz/kr/Resize%20of%20wd52.jpg[/img][img]http://myst.cafe24.com/arcbox/atoz/kr/Resize%20of%20wd33.jpg[/img]
That game is not perfect game but really good game. The criticism from magazine is good but they didn't forget say "Adventure game genre is dead". so really dead in Korea now.
I had to pay 50~60$ for Syberia or TLJ or some new games cause of shiptment fee. Any distributor don't try to import adventure game. why? everybody says "Adventrure is Dead"
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| 13 MAR 2003 at 6:02am |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hey Zwei,
Yea, I've played that; my old apartmentmate is Korean and he had the game. I tried it was very confused most of the time (not because of Korean, just the way it was set up) It did look very promising...
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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