| 23 APR 2010 at 8:50pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Another advantage of dd is that the game code can be updated for more modern systems and inexpensively distributed via download.
Which is sort of what GOG is up to.
Dd is actually bringing back games which have been condemned to sit on shelves because they are incompatible with current systems.
I know. I have shelves full of them.
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| 23 APR 2010 at 8:56pm |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Stiler (23 APR 2010 6:17pm)
Originally Posted By MKB (21 APR 2010 1:38am)
I don't know why the developers (and indies) can't (or won't) do it both ways. What's it cost? About $1? to replicate and print a disc with a DVD case?
I'd be willing to pay an extra $5 plus shipping for a physical copy of an AG. I will pay nothing for a download.
It is much more costly to have a game on store shelves then through digital chains like steam, etc.
You have to:
1. Find a publisher (publishers are the ones that handle distribution, print the dics, get them in stores, market a game, etc.)
2. Out of your game the publisher gets their share of a sale and return on money they had to spend to get the games in stores, the store gets their share, then finally the devs get theirs after two middlemen get it.
With digital distribution, there's no need for an indie developer to even get a publisher, so that cuts out a middleman. Steam/whomever takes their share but it's not nearly as costly as shelf space.
Not to mention, dd has a user base of millions and millions of people, all over the world with unlimited shelf space. With publishers you sale based on specific regions, etc with limited shelf space.
When's the last tiem you saw an indie game/adventure game that had a frontline middle shelf space the likes of AAA games like Call of duty get?
Many indie games get small shelf space, limited marketing, but they still get a huge chunk taken out of their profits for it.
The only advantage I can see for using a traditional publisher is on the distribution end and this isn't much of an advantage (and very expensive). Developers should use an outfit like this: http://www.discmakers.com/products/bulk.asp.
A game can be data-stamped (more durable than burning). Art can be silk-screened on the disk. The DVD case can have the art inserted. All for about $2.00 (US) per copy. All very professional looking. I'll wager that Steam's cut is more espensive than this.
The only problem is distribution. A developer has to want to do this and with proper advertising and a good web page, it's possible. Forget the brick & mortar stores, they eat up too much of the profit.
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 23 APR 2010 at 10:35pm |
TechnoSpikePrivate Detective
Posts : 581
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Location: PT
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (23 APR 2010 10:09am)
Hmmf, you must all be males, right? How is it that males can never understand the joys of retail therapy? I love walking into a store, browsing, finding, getting that w00t loot! feeling, and walking out again with a nice tangible treasure in my hand. 8-)
Must be just a girl thing. :
Err, male, here! And I do like my boxes, thank you! Like you say, there's nothing like that "AHA!" feeling of finding some interesting game, specially if its at a good price AND an oldie!
I understand the trend and I might get on the wagon in someway (GOG's deals are becoming better and better), but I still prefer having something "solid" in my hands, so to speak... Some things are not meant to be in a digital form and manuals for me are one of them... I hate reading in PDF...
I think the way to go would be a middle arrangement: digital distribution AND boxed game with a few addons, so to speak, for people that like to feel they are getting more of it instead of just some "digital bits" (just don't make it in the price range of the new colector's edition of Starcraft 2, ok, I'm not ready to spend 99$ on a game !!!)
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| 23 APR 2010 at 10:38pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By MKB (23 APR 2010 8:56pm)
Originally Posted By Stiler (23 APR 2010 6:17pm)
Originally Posted By MKB (21 APR 2010 1:38am)
I don't know why the developers (and indies) can't (or won't) do it both ways. What's it cost? About $1? to replicate and print a disc with a DVD case?
I'd be willing to pay an extra $5 plus shipping for a physical copy of an AG. I will pay nothing for a download.
It is much more costly to have a game on store shelves then through digital chains like steam, etc.
You have to:
1. Find a publisher (publishers are the ones that handle distribution, print the dics, get them in stores, market a game, etc.)
2. Out of your game the publisher gets their share of a sale and return on money they had to spend to get the games in stores, the store gets their share, then finally the devs get theirs after two middlemen get it.
With digital distribution, there's no need for an indie developer to even get a publisher, so that cuts out a middleman. Steam/whomever takes their share but it's not nearly as costly as shelf space.
Not to mention, dd has a user base of millions and millions of people, all over the world with unlimited shelf space. With publishers you sale based on specific regions, etc with limited shelf space.
When's the last tiem you saw an indie game/adventure game that had a frontline middle shelf space the likes of AAA games like Call of duty get?
Many indie games get small shelf space, limited marketing, but they still get a huge chunk taken out of their profits for it.
The only advantage I can see for using a traditional publisher is on the distribution end and this isn't much of an advantage (and very expensive). Developers should use an outfit like this: http://www.discmakers.com/products/bulk.asp.
A game can be data-stamped (more durable than burning). Art can be silk-screened on the disk. The DVD case can have the art inserted. All for about $2.00 (US) per copy. All very professional looking. I'll wager that Steam's cut is more espensive than this.
The only problem is distribution. A developer has to want to do this and with proper advertising and a good web page, it's possible. Forget the brick & mortar stores, they eat up too much of the profit.
Manufacturing, packaging, and physical or digital distribution are just three of the essential services that publishers provide. They also provide upfront money to the developer / studio, additional resources for outside talent, product testing and technical support plus marketing / advertising, PR and sales promotion to both the trade and to consumers.
Beyond that, they leverage their clout to gain preferred retail shelf space, direct web sales exposure, and the attention of widely read reviewers as well as possible lucrative deals with movies studios, etc. that can extend a franchise into other media.
Oh, and they take most or all of the financial risk for all the above.
Cheers, Terry
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| 23 APR 2010 at 11:06pm |
MKBSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 241
Joined: 24 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | Wow, Terry! I had no idea that publishers were so involved in the process. I can see why developers want to avoid them as much as possible. But for a game that's already produced and Steam(ed), why not offer (for a nominal charge) a physical copy? Maybe I'm just one of the few dinosaurs left that care and not worth the effort.
It was mentioned on this thread that physical disk distribution has died. I don't know, I've purchased several this year and have three more on order. Dead? No. Dying? I doubt it but definitely sickly and some are trying to kill it (I still want Runaway 3, Ankh 3 and some others that I can't find)
I don't buy download-only games. Never have, never will........Mike
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| 23 APR 2010 at 11:43pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
If a developer has already produced and tested a polished game, plus assuming the same studio also has major skills and connections for marketing, getting high-profile web reviews, and wide-scale online distribution, then they certainly should consider going without a publisher.
The problem is that most independent game creators don't have all the necesssary resources, expertise, etc. needed to compete against the big publishers and gain the kind of exposure required for real financial success.
That said, there are lots of small companies that can provide a full range of specialized services and some might be willing to form a partnership to spread the costs and share the risks.
Nevertheless, someone would still need to act as the business manager / promoter and that's where most creative types seem to fail. They're great with visual concepts, writing, animation, music, and other artistic stuff. These days, many of them also have solid tech skills for coding. But when it comes to business and money, they just fall short.
Cheers, Terry
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| 24 APR 2010 at 1:10am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Online retail providers (aka stores) -- as always -- need to provide a choice, if possible. It only makes good business sense. Ask any catalog house, who used to be the modern short-cut to driving to the brick and mortar store. Amazon is today's ultimate catalog house.
Getting in my car and driving 10 miles to Best Buy only to find that they don't have the game is deflating, to say the least. Waiting a week from eBay or Amazon is a little better, but I've also received damaged goods this way.
Meanwhile, I've downloaded dozens of games without (knock on wood) one problem. Even when my machine crashed and I lost games, I could get them back via the online retailer.
Here we are on the Internet discussing this. We could do so in real time, if we wished. Why on Earth can't games be delivered this way effectively? Serial installments or full games, I honestly don't care.
Films, too. To me, Netflix by mail is clunky. Monday, I'm in no mood for a film or prepared to know what I'll feel like watching on Friday. Friday, I can login to Amazon On Demand or Netflix and watch a film immediately. Or go to icefilms and watch nearly any video right away.
On the other hand, there are games I want to savor again and again over time. I'll seek the retail box for those, for sure. But, to me, that's a luxury. And, I'll predict, temporary.
Those of us who want flawless downloaded games might be a bit ahead of the curve, maybe even ahead of the need in our category for PCs or Macs. But the future has to be beyond even downloads to a hard drive.
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| 24 APR 2010 at 3:19pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | As long as there is no DRM, I don't mind downloading online. I have plenty of blank discs for backup.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 24 APR 2010 at 3:52pm |
JehaneSpace Cadet
Posts : 128
Joined: 15 MAY 2007
Status : Online | The only games I've ever downloaded where freeware games and/or fan procjets such as "Broken Sword 2.5". I'd never download a full-length game simply because I'm a person who needs to be able to touch things. I like my games sitting in boxes on shelves, I like browsing the manuals occasionally, I love the effort developers put into the box design, using special print to make letters and/or part of the design stand out for your fingers to feel. I love the little extras such as the pages inserted in the box for The Lost Crown. You don't get all that stuff when downloading a game. Also, after having read the initial posting in this thread, I'm convinced that downloading games is not for me simply because I don't have the patience to wait for a 10-hour-download to finish
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| 24 APR 2010 at 4:14pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | A lot depends on the speed and reliability of your Internet connection. So-called broadband may not be much faster than dialup. And some people live in parts of the world where their ISP charges according to how much they download. So there's some percentage of the gaming audience for whom downloaded games can cost a lot more than their listed price.
There is also the issue of whether you ever want to replay the games, say 5 or 10 years down the road on a different computer. It's easier to play a 20 year old DOS game in Vista than a Windows game with the older versions of StarForce -- so a disc version with hardware-dependent copy "protection" isn't necessarily any better than an online-activated game where the activation server is no longer in service. A DRM-free game from GOG is easier to get working than a disc version with restrictive copy "protection" that doesn't allow the game to be played on newer systems (or in emulation).
Now that they are making copy "protections" with the option (for the publisher) of multiple disc checks during the game with triggered deterioration during gameplay, you can't be certain if any bugs you run into are a problem with the original game or a result of "silent" copy "protection" failure. Unless I either know a game is DRM-free, or I trust the publisher not to implement such problematic "protection," I don't see the disc version being any better investment than the download version -- and that means I'm not willing to spend nearly as much money on it.
As someone who collects games, I want more than a box and a disc. I want a game that will actually be functional a few years down the road, even if only in emulation. With many of the current disc "protection" systems, I can't be sure of getting that. Even if you trust that a game "NoCD" is virus-free, do you trust that it's been tested throughout the whole game? If the game starts out OK, but gradually becomes too buggy to continue after an hour or so because of triggered copy "protection," it's worth no more than a buggy demo.
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| 24 APR 2010 at 6:25pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | You are all making a case for multiple delivery systems for games. Some collect, some don't need the box. Some don't replay games, some do. Some only play new games, others are hooked on oldies (for which downloading is a blessing), some have had problems downloading, some haven't. Good luck to you all. Just keep your old desktops, because I think media like CDs are creeping toward the tar pits.
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| 25 APR 2010 at 4:20am |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2592
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | This is dumb. [smiley=tongue.gif]
I was just playing MOTOE when I hit more graphical anomalies. For the benefit of anyone who might be considering buying this game via digital download from Big Fish, I'd like to offer some caveats in the form of screenshots.
First, the two anomalies I mentioned earlier in this thread:
A shot from a blocky, pixelated cutscene (all cutscenes have been like this)
What I saw when I was supposed to be seeing the interior corridor of a train (luckily, the hotspots remained intact -- what a hoot)
Tonight's fun came when the main character got off the train and did some exploring. These are self-explanatory:
Screwed up image 1
Screwed up image 2
Screwed up image 3
Big Fish has confirmed that the graphical anomalies are not the fault of my computer.
I don't know anything about the process of converting games from disc format to digital download, but whoever did this one threw a big wrench into the works of an excellent game.
Oh well, at least it's still playable...so far. And believe it or not, I haven't encountered a single instance of clipping. But I suggest that anyone who's in the market for a digital download of this game buy it somewhere other than Big Fish.
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| 25 APR 2010 at 7:02am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By karla (25 APR 2010 4:20am)
This is dumb. [smiley=tongue.gif]
I was just playing MOTOE when I hit more graphical anomalies. For the benefit of anyone who might be considering buying this game via digital download from Big Fish, I'd like to offer some caveats in the form of screenshots.
First, the two anomalies I mentioned earlier in this thread:
A shot from a blocky, pixelated cutscene (all cutscenes have been like this)
What I saw when I was supposed to be seeing the interior corridor of a train (luckily, the hotspots remained intact -- what a hoot)
Tonight's fun came when the main character got off the train and did some exploring. These are self-explanatory:
Screwed up image 1
Screwed up image 2
Screwed up image 3
Big Fish has confirmed that the graphical anomalies are not the fault of my computer.
I don't know anything about the process of converting games from disc format to digital download, but whoever did this one threw a big wrench into the works of an excellent game.
Oh well, at least it's still playable...so far. And believe it or not, I haven't encountered a single instance of clipping. But I suggest that anyone who's in the market for a digital download of this game buy it somewhere other than Big Fish.
Ugh, those screenshots look terrible, Karla! ...and you actually had to pay full price for this?
Now I want to ask you a serious question: Since Taurnil and myself experienced not a single anomaly with our European versions of Still Life 2; don't you honestly think that the problems you had experienced with SL2 might have had to do with the download version, similar as you are having here with MOTOE, the latter which we all know that the boxed version has no such problems.... ?
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| 25 APR 2010 at 2:05pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Wow, Karla, sounds like it is time to stop downloading or downloading from Big Fish. As I've said, I've had no problems and I've downloaded many full games. You are on the other end of the extreme.
What other factors aid or corrupt downloads?
I have Comcast Cable @ 10,000 kbps download. I never pause a download and do nothing else on my computer until it is done. I use Malwarebytes (paid edition) to scan it. 4 GB RAM, very little running on my rig in the background.
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| 25 APR 2010 at 4:17pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1464
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | To me, that looks straight up like a video card problem Karla. I know you say they confirmed it wasn't your computer, but most digital games won't even install if the dl/d file is corrupted and if was like that for other people then Big Fish needs to put up an actual working version.
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| 25 APR 2010 at 5:01pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (25 APR 2010 7:02am)
Ugh, those screenshots look terrible, Karla! ...and you actually had to pay full price for this?
"Full price" for this game at Big Fish is $6.99.
What I'm not clear on is whether everyone who bought this game from Big Fish is having the same problems. As I understand it, Big Fish's downloader/installer checks the download before installing. So if the file was corrupted during the download, it would not have installed. I've actually seen it check and redownload install files (or parts of install files) on my computer.
But if everyone is having the same problem with Murder on the Orient Express, why hasn't Big Fish taken down the game until the file is repaired? I've seen them do that with another game, though in that case the game really was unplayable.
Originally Posted By karla (25 APR 2010 4:20am)
A shot from a blocky, pixelated cutscene (all cutscenes have been like this)
That looks like severe compression artifacts. I wonder if they tried to compress the cut scenes to reduce the size of the download.
Originally Posted By karla (25 APR 2010 4:20am)
Tonight's fun came when the main character got off the train and did some exploring. These are self-explanatory:
Screwed up image 1
Screwed up image 2
Screwed up image 3
I wonder if those are the result of trying to convert the game to widescreen.
Anyone play the original CD game on a widescreen monitor?
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| 25 APR 2010 at 8:53pm |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2592
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | Actually, I paid $4.89 for MOTOE. Big Fish was having a sale and I let myself be suckered in...
The good news is that after I'd satisfied Big Fish that I hadn't been fibbing about my video card, drivers, etc., they offered me a free game of my choice.
In fact, once I had sent acceptable evidence that what I'd said was on my system was really there, the free game offer arrived almost immediately. It even got here before I received the email from customer service telling me nothing could be done about the graphics and that I'd be getting a freebie.
This struck me as being a little peculiar, but I'm not complaining. That's the fastest I've ever seen any customer service department move. [smiley=shocked.gif]
I just seem to have some weird karma going on when it comes to digital d/ls of full-sized games. I have the same kind of thing with printers, scanners and every word-processing program on the planet. I don't get along with any of 'em. [smiley=eww.gif]
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| 25 APR 2010 at 9:38pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By karla (25 APR 2010 8:52pm)
I just seem to have some weird karma going on when it comes to digital d/ls of full-sized games. I have the same kind of thing with printers, scanners and every word-processing program on the planet. I don't get along with any of 'em. [smiley=eww.gif]
You and Harry Dresden.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 25 APR 2010 at 11:19pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | And it's easy to see why: previously, boxes were breathtaking pieces of work that not only illustrated what the game was about, but also included prominent documentation and even a few surprises. I don't think the problems is so much the driving to the store and picking up the game but just how disappointing the trip turns out to be. Fifteen years ago, I would have gladly travelled to the end of the world to shop for games.
I came into the PC gaming scene back in 97, so I might have been a bit too late for the real gems, but most of the boxed games that I have bought were not that impressive, as far as box content goes. There was usually the game disk, a manual, and an add for some other game. There were of course exceptions, like the fabulous Ultima 9 box (standard edition), which contained a cloth map (yes, cloth, not paper!), tarot cards, one really nice book about the background, and the spells in the game, and a manual. I have heard that the collectors edition was among the best ones to date. Most boxes were not like this tough.
It is much more costly to have a game on store shelves then through digital chains like steam, etc.
Yet buying games of the shelves is more often than not cheaper. A recent example of this for me was when I bought company of heroes. Buying the entire collection from steam would set me back 45€, buying the boxed edition cost me 20€. Getting the entire gothic collection cost me slightly less than 10€, while buying gothic 3 online (with no expansion) costs 10€. This really seem to be the trend, buying games online is convenient, but you have to be prepared to pay quite a bit more, at least for games that are still sold in stores. Even brand new I can often find games for ~5€ less in stores.
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| 25 APR 2010 at 11:21pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LadyKestrel (25 APR 2010 9:38pm)
Originally Posted By karla (25 APR 2010 8:52pm)
I just seem to have some weird karma going on when it comes to digital d/ls of full-sized games. I have the same kind of thing with printers, scanners and every word-processing program on the planet. I don't get along with any of 'em. [smiley=eww.gif]
You and Harry Dresden.
Have you read "Changes"? Great book. I've read them all. And might do so again!
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| 26 APR 2010 at 3:40pm |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1464
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fnord (25 APR 2010 11:19pm)
I came into the PC gaming scene back in 97, so I might have been a bit too late for the real gems, but most of the boxed games that I have bought were not that impressive, as far as box content goes. There was usually the game disk, a manual, and an add for some other game. There were of course exceptions, like the fabulous Ultima 9 box (standard edition), which contained a cloth map (yes, cloth, not paper!), tarot cards, one really nice book about the background, and the spells in the game, and a manual. I have heard that the collectors edition was among the best ones to date. Most boxes were not like this tough.
I still have my Ultima IX: Dragon Edition, easily one of the best CE's to a game.
The only games that come close to those types of boxes are usually the Blizzard CE's.
The WoW: CE Is quite nice, with it's hardcover Artbook, cd soundtrack, dvd, in a huge sturdy box.
Then there were a few games that had just amazing regular editions, like FAlcon 4.0. It came in ai Trapper Keeper style case with a huuuuuuuge manual inside for all the sim-details and flight instructions.
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| 26 APR 2010 at 4:07pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | You are right about collectors editions, they used to come with some nice items (these days they seem to come with in game items instead, which might be more useful to the player, but not as fun once you are bored with the game). Guild wars (the first one) came with one of the nicest art books I have ever seen for a game, and a decent headset. Warhammer online came with this
[img]http://www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/29340/preview[/img]
and morrowind had a nice pewter model that still stands on top of my computer screen. On the other hand, myst 4 came with an incomplete deck of cards (a 32 card set), parts of the soundtrack (but if you wanted the whole thing, you had to buy it on a separate cd), and a short "making of". But regular editions did for the most part come with a big, nearly empty box, which in my mind feels like a bit of a waste. These days when games needs to come with a large manual, the game usually comes in a sleeve, that contains both the dvd case, and the manual, and that only takes up a little bit more space than the game itself. For most games, a manual is not even needed tough, so for them, getting the digital copy is not such a big loss.
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| 27 APR 2010 at 10:24pm |
CaseusIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 14
Joined: 27 APR 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TAS (25 APR 2010 11:21pm)
Have you read "Changes"? Great book. I've read them all. And might do so again!
I think there's a short story coming out that details what happens right after the end of 'Changes', just so we're not left hanging til the next book.
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| 27 APR 2010 at 11:16pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Thanks!
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