| 31 DEC 2009 at 1:20pm |
| Deleted User | Echoing what TM posted just above :-
However, I'm afraid I won't make another adventure game. You said that once before after "Other Worlds" --- but you bounced back with "ITR".
Circumstances CAN, and do, change --- and your disappointment with them !!
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| 31 DEC 2009 at 7:08pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Alkis:
I mentioned above that I programmed & sold a software package for several years (actually 5). It was what would be called a vertical package that was way ahead of its time and while it sold for $995 to $1495, it was one of the first that could be used on 'microcomputers' for its purpose as opposed to the alternatives that only ran on 'minicomputers' and cost 2 to 3 times my package.
I didn't lose any money in the venture, but when I calculated the time I had put in over the 5 years, I was often making what was no more than a minimum wage. I finally shut the company down because the returns didn't justify the work and stress required to keep things going.
The reasons that I didn't make the 'millions' that people said I would were: 1) I wasn't a particularly good businessman, 2) since the code for the package could have been easily stolen & copied, I was afraid to have too many employees so I had to do most of the important work myself, 3) my target buyers were in a vocation that means they can be very demanding & ignorant of the software market for this type of package so they didn't know a good value when they saw it, 4) people were particularly clueless at the time about the use PCs and support over the phone was a real challenge, to say the least!
But, the package was a good package. I have continued to use it for many years and it is works flawlessly though now, packages for the purpose are more sophisticated.
Likewise, from everything I've read your DITR is a good game. My guess is that, just like me, you were/are up against forces beyond your control, but one of them is not your AG development competence or skill.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 31 DEC 2009 at 8:03pm |
Steve VeaseySpace Cadet
Posts : 115
Joined: 30 MAY 2009
Status : Online | Alkis, I'm interested in your throwaway line about 'the Limbo of The Lost fiasco'.. From what I understand it was a game that essentially took thirteen years to develop and then had to be pulled because it stole 'stuff' directly from various other games/media formats...
How would that relate to your situation? I think maybe your closeness to the inside world of game development has led you to believe that potential customers are put off by seedy tales like this, but in reality how many people know anything about Limbo of The Lost?
DITR was a very good game with a particularly interesting and challenging central premise...I don't know why you wouldn't be proud of such an achievement, other than it hasn't been successful enough commercially for you to attract a major publisher (I'm guessing here)
Then again..you are based in Greece, and the current economic environment there is very much worse than anything experienced in the US or UK or most other developed nations. However, I would have thought the 'global' nature of software development would not have made the local economy so much of a factor here?
Whatever, you have achieved more creatively in your young life than I will ever aspire to (I was going to be a great guitar player in a rock band but decided a regular paycheck from 'the man' was a better way of life...don't EVER make that kind of mistake in your life)...
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| 31 DEC 2009 at 8:51pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Alkis, I swear I will fly to Greece to smack you in the face. You managed to finish a high quality adventure game (and we all know how bloody difficult that is!), with a controversial subject matter no less, to my knowledge never tackled before, and got away with it. To me, it's frankly out of question to see you quitting. You were not only good enough -- you were better.
And yeah, you said the very same thing after Other Worlds
@SirDave
As a matter of fact, the iPhone already is a strong platform for indie developers, and it keeps getting better. Maybe for the first time ever, any developer is able to reach a huge audience with near-zero investment. Ask anyone what it is like to develop for DS or PSP and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I definitely agree: the fabled Apple Tablet (iSlate? iGuide?) will be extremely important to indies. It will be a game changer, that's for sure.
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| 31 DEC 2009 at 9:33pm |
pollodiabloSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Sad news indeed... I really hope you decide to continue to make adventure games at some point in the future. You clearly have a talent for doing so
Beta-tester of 'The Path', 'Rhiannon', 'Scratches', 'Hope Springs Eternal', 'Time Stand Still', 'Frasse and the Peas of Kejick', '1893: A World's Fair Mystery', 'Carte Blanche' and 'Oakhaven Plantation' a.o.&&
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| 31 DEC 2009 at 11:09pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By alkis21 (30 DEC 2009 12:21pm)
Hello my friends, I hope you're all doing well.
Unfortunately, I have some sad news for you. Recent developments, as well as some personal issues, left me with no choice but to terminate Atropos Studios against my will.
We're all talking about the business aspects of this and not taking into account the 'personal issues'.
Alkis, I hope your family is well. No doubt Roula will welcome more of your time. A man with your personality will not stay down for long; you'll find another project to absorb your energies.
Have a great 2010.
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 12:26am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (31 DEC 2009 8:51pm)
@SirDave
As a matter of fact, the iPhone already is a strong platform for indie developers, and it keeps getting better. Maybe for the first time ever, any developer is able to reach a huge audience with near-zero investment. Ask anyone what it is like to develop for DS or PSP and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Absolutely- I have an iTouch full of a lot of the results! It's particularly encouraging to have someone with your impressive experience agree with the premise. I've tried to be a little reserved about this subject, but I'll go even further to say that there is something absolutely exciting about the possibilities. I have been so underwhelmed by the less-then-impressive history of developers (when it comes to commercial success that is) trying to download games over the internet. But the iPhone/iTouch platform has been so successful that, as you infer, with little investment, reasonable and sometimes large profits are possible.
As you know, already several AGs have been made available in the 3.5in format. I would love to see new AGs become available for a 7-9in Apple Tablet. I will be willing to try any game in that format that has reasonable reviews for a 4.95 to 9.95 price point.
If people don't know anything about what we're talking about: The iTouch allows you to, thru any wifi connection, cycle thru a 'store' of around 100,000 apps (applications), at least half of which are games. You can read the developer's description, look at screenshots and then read several user reviews. If you choose to go for it, you click on Buy and enter your password and 'voila' the game is right there as immediate gratification. Prices vary from 99 cents to 9.95 USD (a few are a little more, but most fall between those extremes).
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 1:51pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Exactly - for some reason (possibly that indie developers always seem to be so enamored with vintage games) the iPhone/iTouch has become the platform of excellence for retro-gaming. It is now home to some incredibly faithful and strong ports (Dragon's Lair, Cobra Command, Flashback, Doom, countless arcade titles) of course including adventures, more than any other handheld (Beneath A Steel Sky, Myst, Transylvania, Mysterious Island, Monkey Island, Frotz), as well as many retro styled games. The iPhone has seriously earned the status of a platform tailored for retro (and adventure) game lovers and this can only get better with the tablet. Scaling the already existing adventures should be a breeze anyway. And yes, buying all these games is eerily painless and quick -- my credit card is crying for mercy
In any case, this is all off-topic. The point is: there are many possibilities Alkis, please don't give up!
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 3:20pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Dr_Watson (31 DEC 2009 8:03pm)
Alkis, I'm interested in your throwaway line about 'the Limbo of The Lost fiasco'.. From what I understand it was a game that essentially took thirteen years to develop and then had to be pulled because it stole 'stuff' directly from various other games/media formats...
How would that relate to your situation? I think maybe your closeness to the inside world of game development has led you to believe that potential customers are put off by seedy tales like this, but in reality how many people know anything about Limbo of The Lost?
I probably shouldn't have said anything but since you ask, Limbo of the Lost apparently made a bigger impression than people think. That's not a guess I'm making; it was mentioned to me by name by two different potential publishers (one of them well known). But I really shouldn't have mentioned it and I don't want to get into any details, I won't blame the world for my own shortcomings. Just try to understand that indie developers face many obstacles that people have no idea about, we talk about them among each other but we rarely say anything in public because people after all just want to play games, they're not interested in hearing our problems and we don't want to sound like we're looking for excuses. (I can feel 2-3 particular JAers nodding their heads)
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 4:12pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | Nod, nod.
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 5:10pm |
KoriSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 399
Joined: 27 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Alkis
“indie developers face many obstacles that people have no idea about"
I’ve always wanted to make a small indie game as have many others who probably will not admit it. We (potential indie game makers) keep reading about these obstacles that you and other successful game makers (having finished a game and put it on the market) have faced, but none of you explain these problems to us who want to make a game. Or to put this another way, don’t you wish someone had warned you about these problems before you marketed your game?
Would you be willing to share this information here at JA, or perhaps on your own web site? Will you write one article to warn future adventure game makers of these problems/dangers to save them from going through what you had to go through? Just make a list of one through ten, listing their importance.
You may not want to write something like this, but it sure would save many other future indie game makers from facing the problems/dangers you encountered, or at least it would warn them.
If I understand you correctly these problems were not about making the game, but came after you marketed the game.
Kori
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 9:45pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Kori, there are a multitude of dangers listed in these threads at various points on JA, so I don't think it's fair that these are some great unknown secret the devs keep from each other.
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| 1 JAN 2010 at 11:28pm |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | If i'm remembering correctly there was some controvery at the time around Limbo of the lost having allegedly "plagarised" the art work in the game from Oblivion and various other properties.
I guess this would make publishers nervous of indies from a "we don't want to get sued for copyright issues" standpoint.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 3 JAN 2010 at 11:57am |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Kori, I have no intention of writing an article or anything but I suppose I won't refuse information to anyone who asks me in private.
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| 3 JAN 2010 at 6:45pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Alkis, if you want to make a nice, clean break from the business, the phrase "no comment" is your best friend.
Cheers, Terry
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| 4 JAN 2010 at 8:39pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Happy New Year Alkis21.
This is just my two cents worth. Alkis decides what he wants to do and I am not trying to influence anyone.
I would consider that since Alkis was "there" and "went" through the trials and tribulations of putting his company together from scratch and had to deal with the "heartaches" of disappointments, broken promises, lies, and possibly fair-weather business partners. It would certainly be worth while for some to ask him for help and list pointers on how to possibly sidestep the bumps and headaches he had to deal with on his own from the "School of Hard Knocks".
I would consider then that since he spread his wings without anyone helping him, that it might be fair to him to be entitled to a consultation fee, because to put it simply; he definitively has something of value to offer, not just to the posters on this forum, but to many who might be willing to buy his book outlining how to take steps towards making the dream of having put a company together and how it was run and possibly how to improve the chances of succeeding from someone who had to deal with the problems of doing so on their own.
By giving information on a sellable book, on what to possibly watch out for when dealing with other companies, possible partners and possible providers of services to an independent gaming company is something that has value and maybe he should not just give it away.
He sweated the task of putting his company together and had to taste the bitter fruit of dissappointment, and therefore I feel that if he were of mind, he might write a book about it and be recompensed for his efforts and pains by imparting valuable knowledge. There may be others who may be interested in getting the viewpoint of someone who was there and possibly prevent others from getting de-railed from their independent gaming company dreams.
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| 4 JAN 2010 at 11:12pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By AShadowWalker (4 JAN 2010 8:38pm)
Happy New Year Alkis21.
This is just my two cents worth. Alkis decides what he wants to do and I am not trying to influence anyone.
I would consider that since Alkis was "there" and "went" through the trials and tribulations of putting his company together from scratch and had to deal with the "heartaches" of disappointments, broken promises, lies, and possibly fair-weather business partners. It would certainly be worth while for some to ask him for help and list pointers on how to possibly sidestep the bumps and headaches he had to deal with on his own from the "School of Hard Knocks".
I would consider then that since he spread his wings without anyone helping him, that it might be fair to him to be entitled to a consultation fee, because to put it simply; he definitively has something of value to offer, not just to the posters on this forum, but to many who might be willing to buy his book outlining how to take steps towards making the dream of having put a company together and how it was run and possibly how to improve the chances of succeeding from someone who had to deal with the problems of doing so on their own.
By giving information on a sellable book, on what to possibly watch out for when dealing with other companies, possible partners and possible providers of services to an independent gaming company is something that has value and maybe he should not just give it away.
He sweated the task of putting his company together and had to taste the bitter fruit of dissappointment, and therefore I feel that if he were of mind, he might write a book about it and be recompensed for his efforts and pains by imparting valuable knowledge. There may be others who may be interested in getting the viewpoint of someone who was there and possibly prevent others from getting de-railed from their independent gaming company dreams.
ShadowWalker, you live in an interesting world. The guy has just had to come to grips with the reality that he hasn't been able to make a reasonable living developing & selling adventure games. Do you really think there is money to be made selling a book on the subject of the pitfalls of developing adventure games?
Have you done some sort of research that we're unaware of that would indicate a potential buying public (on such a subject) that would make this sort of book as likely to be profitable and justify the commitment that writing a book entails? Let's say there are a thousand people out there who would buy this sort of book (and that's probably stretching the limits of a guesstimate). Would a publisher take on a book with that limited a potential? And if you self-published, would that cover the cost involved in vanity publishing. Or even if you self-published in the most accessible, least-expensive, format- ebook publishing such as for the Amazon Kindle, would that limited an interested buyership make the work worthwhile?
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 4 JAN 2010 at 11:21pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
I doubt Alkis would want to go through the long, tedious, emotionally painful process of chronicling his experiences in this case.
That side, I agree with Dave. There simply isn't a viable commercial market for such a book even a tell-all that points fingers and names names (which would also open up a huge can of legal worms).
Offering general advice in a blog might work though and he's already offered to communicate via PMs. Even then, I'd advise him to steer clear of revealing too many specific details like names or financial info.
Cheers, Terry
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| 4 JAN 2010 at 11:35pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (4 JAN 2010 11:12pm)
Originally Posted By AShadowWalker (4 JAN 2010 8:38pm)
Happy New Year Alkis21.
This is just my two cents worth. Alkis decides what he wants to do and I am not trying to influence anyone.
I would consider that since Alkis was "there" and "went" through the trials and tribulations of putting his company together from scratch and had to deal with the "heartaches" of disappointments, broken promises, lies, and possibly fair-weather business partners. It would certainly be worth while for some to ask him for help and list pointers on how to possibly sidestep the bumps and headaches he had to deal with on his own from the "School of Hard Knocks".
I would consider then that since he spread his wings without anyone helping him, that it might be fair to him to be entitled to a consultation fee, because to put it simply; he definitively has something of value to offer, not just to the posters on this forum, but to many who might be willing to buy his book outlining how to take steps towards making the dream of having put a company together and how it was run and possibly how to improve the chances of succeeding from someone who had to deal with the problems of doing so on their own.
By giving information on a sellable book, on what to possibly watch out for when dealing with other companies, possible partners and possible providers of services to an independent gaming company is something that has value and maybe he should not just give it away.
He sweated the task of putting his company together and had to taste the bitter fruit of dissappointment, and therefore I feel that if he were of mind, he might write a book about it and be recompensed for his efforts and pains by imparting valuable knowledge. There may be others who may be interested in getting the viewpoint of someone who was there and possibly prevent others from getting de-railed from their independent gaming company dreams.
ShadowWalker, you live in an interesting world. The guy has just had to come to grips with the reality that he hasn't been able to make a reasonable living developing & selling adventure games. Do you really think there is money to be made selling a book on the subject of the pitfalls of developing adventure games? Have you done some sort of research that we're unaware of that would indicate a potential buying public (on such a subject) that would make this sort of book as likely to be profitable and justify the commitment that writing a book entails?
Yes, he may have just come to grips with being unable to create a decent living by developing and selling video games. But, if you look at the landscape of books on this matter, you will find that most are dealing with the legal aspects of game companies, what programming languages to learn, how to develop your skills, etc. I do not know what commitment he can put into it. Maybe not a book, maybe a blog that he can get something for it. I do not know, but he does have a unique perspective on the personal story that he might deliver to someone who may want to know what entails in putting such an idea into realilty. It is a valuable lesson that he can give to others. Maybe he can by doing this, help himself to get back on the horse later on.
But, it can be reasonable that others who have such dreams may very likely want to hear from someone who did.
I want to become a chef, and I read just about anything that I can get my hands on people who have put restaurants with nothing but a dream and a prayer. Yes, it can be done, by reading such stories I get to see what possible pitfalls I may get snagged on. Furthermore, I also am working towards writing a book that I have been considering writing for 2 years now. Will I publish it; very likely, when the time is right and when I have finished it. Still I am slowly creating the story and ideas.
It is time consumming. No hurry, I'll get there. Funny thing is, even if you self publish, there is always someone willing to buy it. How many, well....that will depend on my book. Nevertheless, my intention is to let Alkis hear another consideration to consider a perspective that even though he failed...NOW! Things can change, and I just do not know if he might have considered that even in that failure, his ideas and experiences doing so still have value to others.
Question is, for whom, someone having a dream like his that may wish to hear the human side of it, but that is something that will take time and he is the one who in the end has to decide what he wants to do.
There are always options.
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| 4 JAN 2010 at 11:45pm |
AShadowWalkerPrivate Detective
Posts : 776
Joined: 6 AUG 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (4 JAN 2010 11:21pm)
.
I doubt Alkis would want to go through the long, tedious, emotionally painful process of chronicling his experiences in this case.
That side, I agree with Dave. There simply isn't a viable commercial market for such a book even a tell-all that points fingers and names names (which would also open up a huge can of legal worms).
Offering general advice in a blog might work though and he's already offered to communicate via PMs. Even then, I'd advise him to steer clear of revealing too many specific details like names or financial info.
Cheers, Terry
I would prefer to hear from Alkis. Yes, he is hurt and healing will take time. And personal stories about individuals who have had experiences of this nature can help others. Will they pay to hear. I do not know. But, it is something to consider.
And I never considered to have a type of book pointing fingers and naming names. I want to hear his personal side. His efforts, how he started and how may someone go about doing so if I wanted to start such a company. It may sound discouraging, but I would not discount that.
Again, I will not assume to consider what he may do or not do. That is up to him. I threw this idea out to him because his experience may have the means to help others, or, putting out what happened may help him. I do not know, but I would not assume what he may do or not. Like I said before, it is up to him. But he does have something valuable that others may wish to hear.
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| 5 JAN 2010 at 12:12am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
We already heard from Alkis who stated that he didn't want to discuss the details in public.
Cheers, Terry
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| 5 JAN 2010 at 11:49am |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | AShadowWalker, I appreciate it that you consider me important enough to give tips to others. But wouldn't you rather hear it from someone who actually succeeded in the business? I don't think you'd buy diet tips from an overweight person. What would I name my book, "How to fail in game development in 12 easy steps"?
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| 5 JAN 2010 at 3:01pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By alkis21 (5 JAN 2010 11:48am)
AShadowWalker, I appreciate it that you consider me important enough to give tips to others. But wouldn't you rather hear it from someone who actually succeeded in the business? I don't think you'd buy diet tips from an overweight person. What would I name my book, "How to fail in game development in 12 easy steps"?
Alkis, stop that talk! [smiley=nono.gif]
You did not fail, you just came up against some temporary obstacles.
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| 5 JAN 2010 at 4:49pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (5 JAN 2010 3:01pm)
Alkis, stop that talk! [smiley=nono.gif]
You did not fail, you just came up against some temporary obstacles.
Quite right! I'm reminded of Ursula Le Guin and the rejection letter she received for The Left Hand of Darkness before it was eventually published. elightful book in the end (a double award winner for best novel), and I'm very happy she didn't let the rejection put her down.
Don't sell yourself short, Alkis. Thomas Edison never did.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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