| 20 AUG 2009 at 1:50pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | I'm terribly sorry to inject an On-Topic comment here (you all know this isn't my nature), but I use all of the browsers mentioned on many different computers (mainly FireFox and Safari - other people's where I am sent to work) but on my personal computer (where I just mostly troll the internet, read newspapers and stuff) - I still have IE6 installed (SP 3).
When my German kid friend I've sponsored for American citizenship for a long time now (he came over in 2000, still a High School student) found out I haven't upgraded my Internet Explorer to IE8 - not to mention IE7 - he simply said:
"Que triste. That's just broken, Mark. Broken."
Punk kid. It works for me.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 4:17pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | Originally posted by TheTraveller
Maybe it is simply a lack of confidence that causes the fear of spatial orientation, and not girly-girlhood?
Actually, it might be neither. According to New Scientist, it looks as though human beings are particularly bad at spatial orientation - and thus good at getting lost. If I infer or recall correctly, it seems that plenty of animals could, on average, quite easily out-navigate us with the proverbial one hand/leg/set of legs/pincer/etc. tied behind their backs.
Naturally, of course, some people end up yet worse at it than others.
Additionally, I seem to recall that our native faculty can become a little less effective from disuse, as a result, for example, of the increasing use of technology.
On the other hand, they also suggest that this might have given us advantages...
I found the article rather interesting - it should be here, if you're interested. ^_^
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 4:30pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Thaumaturge (20 AUG 2009 4:16pm)
Originally posted by TheTraveller
Maybe it is simply a lack of confidence that causes the fear of spatial orientation, and not girly-girlhood?
Actually, it might be neither. According to New Scientist, it looks as though human beings are particularly bad at spatial orientation - and thus good at getting lost. If I infer or recall correctly, it seems that plenty of animals could, on average, quite easily out-navigate us with the proverbial one hand/leg/set of legs/pincer/etc. tied behind their backs.
Naturally, of course, some people end up yet worse at it than others.
Additionally, I seem to recall that our native faculty can become a little less effective from disuse, as a result, for example, of the increasing use of technology.
On the other hand, they also suggest that this might have given us advantages...
I found the article rather interesting - it should be here, if you're interested. ^_^
I like you Thaumaturge, I really do. :-* (Yes, that is a kiss .. : ) Before you came along, I felt a bit like some silly Nerd girl with my perpetual references to Wikipedia and scientific articles; only I used to be worse: I used to quote the entire article here on JA, hoping that there would be other nerdy souls like yourself (and myself, of course) around, that would be interested in reading them.
Well, rejoice! I promise I shall faithfully read every article of yours, if you will in turn promise to read mine... [smiley=angel_smiley.gif]
Ok, well - you are one ahead of me with the TVTropes thing...
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 4:50pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | I like you Thaumaturge, I really do. Kiss (Yes, that is a kiss .. Roll Eyes )
Aaww... *blushes* Thank you very much. I really like you too. ^_^
Before you came along, I felt a bit like some silly Nerd girl with my perpetual references to Wikipedia and scientific articles; only I used to be worse: I used to quote the entire article here on JA, hoping that there would be other nerdy souls like yourself (and myself, of course) around, that would be interested in reading them.
Bah, nothing silly about it! Well, aside from the replication inherent in not just posting a link and short summary. ;P
Offer information, and let those who want it take it. ^_^
Well, rejoice! I promise I shall faithfully read every article of yours, if you will in turn promise to read mine...
I shall try to read all of yours, I intend, but I do warn you that I'm terrible at getting around to things, even reading interesting articles. They can sometimes end up sitting in a tab, waiting to be opened, session after session... ^^;;;
(I have an interview that I think that someone on this site linked to sitting just two tabs behind this one as I type. ^^; )
Ok, well - you are one ahead of me with the TVTropes thing...
Hmm... One isn't enough of a lead! What other site might I start linking to...? ;P
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 5:05pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Thaumaturge (20 AUG 2009 4:50pm)
I shall try to read all of yours, I intend, but I do warn you that I'm terrible at getting around to things, even reading interesting articles. They can sometimes end up sitting in a tab, waiting to be opened, session after session... ^^;;;
Phew! that's a relief! I was just testing you there... at least now I know how the other people used to feel when I posted those long articles and actually expected folk to read it... [smiley=rofl.gif]
I think I've thought of a better deal: we never get offended if the other person does not have time to read long linked to or quoted-from articles! How's that sound? [smiley=hi_five.gif]
I am reading your article though- promise - well, I've opened it at least...
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 5:16pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | Phew! that's a relief! I was just testing you there... at least now I know how the other people used to feel when I posted those long articles and actually expected folk to read it...
*laughs* I didn't say that I expected anyone to read mine, I don't think - I just posted it for those who were. ;P
I don't see any reason to be offended by another not being interested in an article that I post here - I sincerely doubt that you have anything to fear of me there. ^_^
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 5:44pm |
| Deleted User | Ok, here is a little piece from that article, that Caroline might really appreciate...
Show me the way to go home
......., Hill has focused his career on the study of how people behave when they are lost in the wild, in a bid to predict where people will turn up.
[.......] Rick Toman, director of search and rescue for the state of Massachusetts, uses a computer model that includes common trends among different types of people to inform the search. Autistic children are often fascinated by water, for example, so it pays to look near rivers and lakes, while suicidal people prefer elevated spots with good views. Missing married men are often easier to find, says Toman. They tend to turn up at a motel "with somebody they shouldn't be with".
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 5:57pm |
| Deleted User | Thanks for the link Thaumaturge.
Originally posted by Thaumaturge
According to New Scientist, it looks as though human beings are particularly bad at spatial orientation - and thus good at getting lost.
Have we lost our way somewhere in evolution or is our inner homing pigeon simply lying dormant?
Well, one thing that quickly comes to mind is humans are hindered by a weak sense of smell. Accordingly, this accounts for our inability to utilize another significant spacial dimension other creatures have at their disposal.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 6:03pm |
| Deleted User | Well, I always orientate myself according to the highest landmark in the vicinity, such as a tall radio tower or other very tall building, and/or mountains, etc. and I can find my way around pretty well like that, even experimenting with paths that I had not used before. However: I have exceptionally good eyesight.
So I am wondering if eyesight might not also play a role. People with very good eyesight, can pick up much subtler visual cues and landmarks than can people who do not have quite such good eyesight.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 6:26pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | Indeed, Traveller, the article mentions, I believe, that it is primarily by loosely-connected landmarks that we navigate, rather than the seemingly more spatial reckoning that other animals seem to use:
... suggest that human cognitive maps pay little heed to geometric realities. Instead, we remember webs of landmarks such as the store, our office, the church where we turn left on our way home, yet have little sense of how these fit together spatially.
Personally, I found this to be perhaps the most interesting item mentioned:
He fitted volunteers with virtual-reality headsets and showed them how to navigate virtual mazes. In half of the experiments, the mazes contained virtual, and invisible, "wormholes" that transported subjects close to a target that they would have known was some distance and a turn or two away. Yet the volunteers happily passed through these shortcuts to end up at a point that even a halfway-decent geometric reckoning would have told them was impossible. "The punchline," Warren says, "is that people didn't even notice anything amiss."
(At this rate, we should have a good portion of the article quoted in fairly short order! ;P)
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 6:47pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Thaumaturge (20 AUG 2009 6:26pm)
Indeed, Traveller, the article mentions, I believe, that it is primarily by loosely-connected landmarks that we navigate, rather than the seemingly more spatial reckoning that other animals seem to use:
... suggest that human cognitive maps pay little heed to geometric realities. Instead, we remember webs of landmarks such as the store, our office, the church where we turn left on our way home, yet have little sense of how these fit together spatially.
Fair enough: maybe I should have mentioned that I had meant in a relatively unfamiliar landscape; For instance, if I had never been to New York before and you drove me to a certain place by car (of course warning me beforehand that I would have to drive back and forth by myself on the second day), I would use a combination of streetnames, "familiar" landmarks, to be found in the immediate vicinity, but also geographical landmarks such as distinctive tall buildings that are visible on the skyline.
Let's say I come to visit you on your farm, which is situated near a range of mountains - I would reasonably easily navigate back and forth using the mountain range as reference.
If, however, your farm was in flat monotonous country with generic looking vegetation, I'm afraid that I would, in fact, most probably get totally lost. One can, of course use the situation of the sun to some extent, but that is not going to be of complete help, especially not during noon or on a cloudy day.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 7:13pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | That reads to me as being pretty much what they are talking about; you presumably happen to have a particularly good memory for such things, and a skill for working with them, that allows you to operate effectively in a fairly new environment with only a brief introduction (perhaps even as you go).
If I recall my impression from the article correctly, however, at least some animals operate in a more spatial manner, using geometric relationships rather than landmarks, whether visual or otherwise.
The difference, I suppose, is this: if we were to take both you and an appropriate animal to an unfamiliar city (or other landmark-strewn region) while blindfolded (and perhaps with other senses blocked, if called for), start you off at a target spot (at which you are allowed to take off your blindfold for as long as you like), and then, again blindfolded, took you on a round-about route to another section of that same place, out of sight of any landmarks visible from the first, the animal would presumably have better success at finding its way back to the target spot. On the other hand, place both of you in new territory, with an impression of a not-yet-visited target (don't ask me how we'd convey that to the animal ^^; ), but plenty of landmarks that have been described to you, you would probably do rather better than the animal by virtue of having a flexible, non-spatial, highly internal map, fed by memory and imagination as well as your senses. At least, such is my impression from this article.
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 7:42pm |
| Deleted User | Well elucidated, Thaumaturge.
I just want to add something quickly to what Camaroboy had said: that animals tend to use scent markers. While territorial animals like cats and dogs use it to mark off their "area", certain social insects like ants and bees, apparently use their sense of smell in various ways to help them navigate.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 8:12pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | Thank you. ^_^
As to other senses than sight, true, some animals have better senses than ours, not to mention more exotic methods of finding their ways, such as magnetic and even, according to the article, polarisation systems.
That said, one final quote from the article:
Yet even animals that lack any huge sensory advantage, such as hamsters, navigate better than many of us.
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 10:58pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Traveller - you impress (and intimidate) me. I get lost driving to my friend's homes and there is always a panic response when I hit the city - am I in the right lane for some turn that I have to do several blocks away...
Hubby understands this and generally checks I know where to go. : I always have a map book within reach in the car but it's pretty confusing if I'm not driving up the page so I frequently turn the book so the roads mimic reality.
Some of us really do have problems with direction. I can do the basic -where is the sun and in this city we have the hills but as for memory - forget it. I can NEVER retrace my steps because everything looks different in reverse. And my mother is even worse.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 11:43pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3803
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (20 AUG 2009 4:30pm)
I like you Thaumaturge, I really do. :-* (Yes, that is a kiss...)
Originally Posted By Thaumaturge (20 AUG 2009 4:50pm)
Aaww... *blushes* Thank you very much. I really like you too.
[img]http://www.mindspring.com/~markparrish/Mumbles.gif[/img]...oh, get a room...poot!...'xcuse, please
Rick Toman, director of search and rescue for the state of Massachusetts, says: They tend to turn up at a motel "with somebody they shouldn't be with".
Set, and match.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 3:03am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Interesting stats:
Overall browser useage: IE: 67% Firefox 20%
However, a survey of MaximumPC readers who tend to be 'power users': IE: 20% Firefox 50%
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 4:28am |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Sir Dave, for shame! You're on topic.
Regarding directions, my mother couldn't find her way out of a paper bag with a map, a compass, and a push in the right direction. Fortunately, I didn't inherit that quality. I'm a good map reader and navigator. Having lived on or near the east coast all my life, the cardinal compass directions seem to be imbedded in my psyche. Of course, if I ever moved to the west coast, all bets would be off because my brain would keep telling me that the ocean is on the wrong side.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 6:13am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I have major problems with east and west when it comes to America. For some reason I grew up thinking of Russia as East and America as West but when it comes to America having an east coast, my brain has to engage several fancy synapses for me to equate east with Atlantic.
And I've lost count of the number of times I've walked out of the car park without looking at what floor I'm on.....
I'm not scatty, not really.... honest..... it's genetic.... I feel like Einstein next to my mother.
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 6:53am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline (20 AUG 2009 10:58pm)
I always have a map book within reach in the car but it's pretty confusing if I'm not driving up the page...
[smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif]
You've made my day with that one, Caroline! Brilliant! Here's a kiss for you as well, [smiley=kiss.gif] just to irritate Mr Mumbles... [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
Posted by: Lady Kestrel Posted on: Today at 12:27am
Sir Dave, for shame! You're on topic.
Yes, we can't have that, can we now? [smiley=nono.gif] We should make a new rule that On Topic posters are banned from that thread for one whole day! 8-)
Posted by: Caroline Posted on: Today at 2:13am
.... I feel like Einstein next to my mother
Psst... don't tell anybody... but I know exactly what you are talking about there... - my poor mother would get lost between the pavement and the front door! [smiley=rofl.gif]
Seriously, though - maybe reading maps and finding your way does come with practice? I've simply had a lot of practice with having to use maps in strange places, so maybe I've just forgotten how much I always used to get lost at first.
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 7:03am |
| Deleted User | Since somebody mentioned the (original) topic of the thread... :
I would have preferred the poll to accept more than one option, since I use both IE and Firefox , although if I have to absolutely choose, it would be IE, simply because I like the way that the tabs and favourites are set up, where all my Google goodies sit in it, and the fact that it is compatibile with most websites.
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 4:22pm |
ThaumaturgeJourneyman
Posts : 999
Joined: 11 MAY 2006
Status : Offline | Originally posted by Mark
[img]http://www.mindspring.com/~markparrish/Mumbles.gif[/img]...oh, get a room...poot!...'xcuse, please
*gesturing to the room around him* I have a room! I imagine that Traveller has one too - well, I hope so, at least. ;P
(I am very tempted to post a lolcat that I recall happening to see just after reading your response, but I'm not quite villainous enough to drag the thread down that much further. )
As to gaining in landmark-navigation ability by practice (I find myself wondering what skills are called for to gain a level ;P), I hesitate for fear of harping on overmuch about that article, but it does seem to concur with that thought, as I recall - as well, I think, as mentioning that the ability can atrophy too.
Alas, I don't seem to have much more to add to the original topic, so, for now, at least, I bow out of this thread.
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry.
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