| 13 AUG 2009 at 2:40pm |
desertjediIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 26
Joined: 15 MAR 2006
Status : Online | He's comfortable with Windows XP, so he asks me to install it.
Yeah, you can't really do that anymore on new notebooks. I think even on the new Dells they don't provide XP drivers.
That's also an area of concern for people who want to hold on to older operating systems. If they have to replace failed components/motherboard, they could easily end up with hardware for which their are no drivers for their older OS.
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| 13 AUG 2009 at 11:31pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JKing (13 AUG 2009 11:29am)
Originally Posted By Fnord (11 AUG 2009 11:44pm)
Because of the new Windows sound architecture, Vista drivers are far, far easier to write, so I guess the hardware manufacturer concluded Windows XP would be a waste of resources.
In the end I had to re-install Windows Vista. Good thing his wife had a disc handy, because the machine didn't come with one, amazingly enough.
I have always been far more a supporter of Microsoft than not. However, problems with Vista and its application in hardware are a many splendored thing. Something that I find totally inexplicable is that MS didn't foresee that trying to apply it to underpowered netbooks and the like is ridiculous.
The idea of netbooks and UMPCs is one which I highly support because they are much easier to transport and use 'on the road' and for many of those applications, cpu-power isn't all that necessary. But computers like that totally bog down under Vista. The best you can do (if the hardware will allow it) is add as much memory as possible, 2g being the absolute minimum.
For instance, I love the 2nd generation Samsung Q1U that has a 7 inch screen and roundabout a 750mHz CPU. It was released in Aug-Sept of 2007 with the only option being Vista. I was dumbfounded and wouldn't touch it. For the next 2 months there were blogs upon blogs on how to hack the Samsung to get 2g memory in it & make as many changes as possible to Vista, both of which were the only things that allowed it to run even remotedly within reason. Then around Oct-Nov Samsung released an XP version which I snapped up immediately. It was an absolute joy with only 1g memory.
It's this sort of thing that was insult on injury when it came to Vista's reputation. Didn't anybody test these things on Vista? And if they did and noticed the slow-down, didn't MS think about providing a Vista version that would work better on them or simply say- 'look, you're better off releasing these things with XP which we will suport' (which is what ended up happening in the end to some extent eg. Acer Aspire One).
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 1:34am |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (11 AUG 2009 11:03pm)
Windows 7 is supposed to have a much faster boot time. Have you not noticed this?
It boots a little faster versus a clean Vista O/S yes. As in a few seconds faster on my Q6600. The reason your laptop might be slow is due to the crap running at startup. Should you buy an OEM laptop from say Best Buy with Windows 7 on it and their wonderful crapware it will start just as slow. However two freshly installed O/S? Yes windows 7 edges out slightly. Well unless you have outdated hardware, but it's meant for new PCs.
I've only played casual games on this laptop because it has Intel video, which won't support most adventure games. But on a "real" gaming computer, backwards compatibility with my older games would be one of my top priorities. What about games that work on XP but not Vista? Will Windows 7 be better or worse for backwards compatibility?
Here are a couple of websites that explain how Windows 7's approach to backwards compatibility differs from Vista's.
http://windows7news.com/2008/04/09/windows-7-backwards-compatibility/
http://thebetaguy.com/exclusives/?postid=1029344029&title=microsoft-windows-7-exclusive
So Vista maintains backwards compatibility by storing libraries from earlier versions of Windows, while Windows 7 uses "virtualization." I'm still unclear on how well older adventure games (such as games made for Windows 98 and early versions of XP) are going to work on Windows 7 -- especially the ones that won't work in Virtual PC because they need a video card with hardware 3D acceleration. Will they (can they?) have to be played using a utility like 3dAnalyze?
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/tools/3d_analyze/download/
Incorrect. They are going to release a mini-virtualPC install which has XP pre-installed. This can be used to run older programs and games. However this already existed with VirtualPC itself. I ran it in Vista. This "XPmode" is simply a renamed version of it. Virtualization is used in VirtualPC if your CPU supports it, which mine does. It's a very useful program and I'm happy they are going to push it through updates (as of writing this it is NOT integrated into Windows 7)
So no, Windows 7 doesn't have any compatibility pluses over Vista. It's the same or worse than Vista is right now, given it now needs new drivers and dumps some old code. 16-bit is still dead in x64 too, unless you use VirtualPC or this new XPMode app.
There are various reasons not to use Vista. It's slow to load and the UAC is a total pain. Then there are various DRM issues such as Microsoft feeling the need to have Windows phone home every few days.
UAC is a part of Windows 7 as well. It can also be disabled quite easily. There are no "RM issues" again - FUD. Explain to me what you mean by this? My PC does not "phone home" other than to check for windows updates. Your music, videos and backup up files will all work EXACTLY the same. DRM is up to the publishers of games and music, it has little to do with Microsoft. Windows Vista and 7 work just fine offline as they do online, so that arguement is bunk.
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 6:15am |
Lurker01Private Detective
Posts : 411
Joined: 23 JUN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (14 AUG 2009 1:34am)
There are various reasons not to use Vista. It's slow to load and the UAC is a total pain. Then there are various DRM issues such as Microsoft feeling the need to have Windows phone home every few days.
UAC is a part of Windows 7 as well. It can also be disabled quite easily. There are no "RM issues" again - FUD. Explain to me what you mean by this? My PC does not "phone home" other than to check for windows updates. Your music, videos and backup up files will all work EXACTLY the same. DRM is up to the publishers of games and music, it has little to do with Microsoft. Windows Vista and 7 work just fine offline as they do online, so that arguement is bunk. UAC itself isn't the problem. The problem was the bit where you got messages asking if you really wanted to do something every five minutes. This particular feature has been improved in Windows 7.
As for DRM issues, well, as stated in my previous post, there is the fact that Windows Update has to check in with Microsoft every three days or almost all of its functionality gets disabled. Yes it will run offline, so long as you connect fairly frequently, but if you have a machine with it on offline for any significant period of time, it will very quickly become useless and I'm not sure what it takes to make it useful again.
There was going to be a particularly annoying little feature that would make trying to run HD content on Vista a waste of time as the signal would be downgraded, but they haven't implemented that just yet. I suspect that a lot of people are going to get caught out by this at some point over the next three or four years though.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 8:06am |
KarstenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 347
Joined: 23 SEP 2006
Location: DK
Status : Offline | From my point of view I see it this way:
If you have bought Vista and hare happy with this OS, nothing has to change.
If you still are on XP (or even Win 9, you might want to change OS.
Myself, I'm quite happy with XP as an OS. My computer still runs great, although it is a bit slow(er) than newer machines. But it gets the job done.
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 11:31am |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By DL (14 AUG 2009 6:15am)
UAC itself isn't the problem. The problem was the bit where you got messages asking if you really wanted to do something every five minutes. This particular feature has been improved in Windows 7.
No, it hasn't. Have you gone into the UAC control panel? I think you need to understand what UAC is before you have this discussion. UAC stops admin tasks and requires the admin to input a password in regular user mode, or to click "continue/allow" if you are logged in as an admin. In Windows 7 it's been automatically adjusted to allow certain common admin tasks, like adjust DPI or managing the computer. Most admin tasks still require it, and if you adjust it back to it's proper strength (control panel) it functions EXACTLY like Vista.
We use it at work to allow us admins to quickly perform a task that wouldn't be possible in windows XP as a regular user. Just *beep* and put in a password. Very convenient. As a regular user you can disable this since it's useless to you. Problem solved.
Also, and you probably never read about this, Windows 7 broke UAC's core functionality. It allows certain windows exe's to be whitelisted. As a result spyware and other malware can bypass the UAC prompt! Thereby making it pretty damn pointless. It's a well known documented issue that Microsoft have yet to address, but they did this because people like you complained about Vista without understanding the feature. Personally I felt it was fine the way it was, now we might as well disable it.
As for DRM issues, well, as stated in my previous post, there is the fact that Windows Update has to check in with Microsoft every three days or almost all of its functionality gets disabled. Yes it will run offline, so long as you connect fairly frequently, but if you have a machine with it on offline for any significant period of time, it will very quickly become useless and I'm not sure what it takes to make it useful again.
What the heck are you talking about? My laptop is offline for weeks and it works the way it should. Vista does NOT have to check to make sure it's genuine. I have no idea where you are getting your information from but it's very incorrect sir. I work in the IT dept so I see Vista computers daily, for 2 years now. I know damn well it does not have this so called feature.
There was going to be a particularly annoying little feature that would make trying to run HD content on Vista a waste of time as the signal would be downgraded, but they haven't implemented that just yet. I suspect that a lot of people are going to get caught out by this at some point over the next three or four years though.
Again, FUD. This is called HDCP and exists even on HDTV and HD broadcasts. If you do not use a true HDMI/DVI cable with an HDCP capable video card (Geforce 7 series and above ALL support it, as do ATI) then you will not get an HD picture - 1920x1080. This exists on all HD presentations, or did you not know this? It has little to do with Windows Vista or Windows 7. I watch BluRay movies at full 1080p all the time on my computer, as my video card support HDCP - as do most modern video cards.
You might want to better inform yourself before you come into a discussion like this because you only serve to give out false information.
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 3:38pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (14 AUG 2009 11:31am)
No, it hasn't. Have you gone into the UAC control panel? I think you need to understand what UAC is before you have this discussion.
Also, and you probably never read about this, Windows 7 broke UAC's core functionality. It allows certain windows exe's to be whitelisted...
It's a well known documented issue that Microsoft have yet to address, but they did this because people like you complained about Vista without understanding the feature. Personally I felt it was fine the way it was, now we might as well disable it.
I work in the IT dept so I see Vista computers daily, for 2 years now. I know damn well it does not have this so called feature.
Again, FUD. This is called HDCP and exists even on HDTV and HD broadcasts.
You might want to better inform yourself before you come into a discussion like this because you only serve to give out false information.
Your points would be more effective if you dispensed with the cockiness. You've now informed us twice that you work in IT. You don't know what we do- I could be frickin' Bill Gates for all you know. Likewise, the term FUD, was interesting when used once, repeated over and over is overkill. Personally, I don't think you've been working with OSs and computers in general long enough to have the perspective on Vista that some of us have.
IMO, UAC is unnecessarily intrusive as applied in Vista. Most people who purchased Vista would have found it difficult to disable it, if they knew in the first place that it could be disabled at all. Or, more importantly, they would be afraid to disable it for fear that something awful would happen. UAC was blasted as poorly applied in most of the reviews (by people with credibility) of Vista that I read. I found it to be likewise.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 5:20pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | IMO, UAC is unnecessarily intrusive as applied in Vista. Most people who purchased Vista would have found it difficult to disable it, if they knew in the first place that it could be disabled at all. Or, more importantly, they would be afraid to disable it for fear that something awful would happen. UAC was blasted as poorly applied in most of the reviews (by people with credibility) of Vista that I read. I found it to be likewise.
While I understand that you don't care for UAC (which doesn't bother me in the least) surely you can understand how sensitive Microsoft must be when it comes to security in as much as they're on everybody favorite hack list. Those same magazines you quote have never failed to mention that issue over and over, time and time again (and I’m not implying that legitimate security issues shouldn’t be written about) .
It seems a bit unfair however that once the issue was addressed that the resolution became the target of the masses. I basically read that as: “We’ll find something to complain about, no matter what it is”. I didn’t start off as a fan of the OS, but I’ve watched it progress and learned to enjoy it. Yeah, some things are different – deal with it folks.
I recall having a conversation with a co-worker many years ago concerning the bloat of Windows 3.0 (we were Beta testing it with IBM). His contention was that DOS was so superior and so far less demanding hardware wise, that no one in their right mind would ever want to upgrade. To him, a perfect world consisted of a dial-up comp-u-serve account and a 286 running DOS. I did disagree, and also pointed out that comp-u-serve would be eaten up by Steve Case and company. I can still recall the puzzled look on his face – to him I was out of my mind, a raving lunatic on some new drug. Of course time did side with my contentions, but his attitudes are the same applied by most whenever a leap in technology takes place. What we have works, we have no desire to learn anything new, it has higher hardware requirements and the technology is flawed (everybody knows that).
If you enjoy Windows 7 – just remember it’s basically Vista with a new face and a few years worth of service packs under its belt.
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 6:29pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (14 AUG 2009 5:20pm)
I recall having a conversation with a co-worker many years ago concerning the bloat of Windows 3.0 (we were Beta testing it with IBM). His contention was that DOS was so superior and so far less demanding hardware wise, that no one in their right mind would ever want to upgrade. To him, a perfect world consisted of a dial-up comp-u-serve account and a 286 running DOS. I did disagree, and also pointed out that comp-u-serve would be eaten up by Steve Case and company. I can still recall the puzzled look on his face – to him I was out of my mind, a raving lunatic on some new drug. Of course time did side with my contentions, but his attitudes are the same applied by most whenever a leap in technology takes place. What we have works, we have no desire to learn anything new, it has higher hardware requirements and the technology is flawed (everybody knows that).
If you enjoy Windows 7 – just remember it’s basically Vista with a new face and a few years worth of service packs under its belt.
Inland, as always you make some good points. and I believe that the best view on this 'Vista issue' will come from people with an overall perspective going back over all the years of DOS->all the Windows versions.
I'm not a Vista-hater in the sense that I absolutely wouldn't touch it now. It is a far more stable system under SP1. And I was able to disable UAC in about 5 minutes after originally being totally infuriated by it and that was w/o reading anything about how to do it. However, I know Windows upside/down. The universal disdain for it within the first 2 months of Vista's intial release has to raise the question as to why the possibility of that wasn't perceived during all the beta-testing. Makes me wonder whether most of the beta-testers were so experienced that they simply shut it off and didn't think anything of it!
I understand what MS was trying to do with UAC, but I still think that it could have been designed to be less intrusive, particularly from the point of view that if something is not designed to be intuitive and easy to use, people will simply shut if off and then it really is worthless.
I find your story of the Dos/Win3/Compuserve funny- in a good way, because I was heavy into Dos and Compuserve then and I just couldn't deal with Win3. I probably would have sounded like your co-worker at the time. Part of the reason was that I was heavy into action gaming and the introduction of Win3 seemed like something that might lead to slow gaming- Doom, Duke Nukem 3D and the like ran so fast under Dos (at least for that time). I do also remember that that was such an issue that Bill Gates actually specifically addressed the ability of Win95 to run Doom adequately before releasing Win95. Ah, brings back memories of 'the great Doom summer of 94' waiting for the latest Doom Wads on Compuserve. And I did end up adopting Win95 almost immediately which led to many great Quake 1 deathmatches on the internet.
Distantly related: Just purchased the just-released Duke Nukem 3D app for the iPhone/iTouch.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 7:50pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
For me at least, Vista has been a real non-problem.
Already having a great Alienware gaming PC running XP, I decided to give the new OS a shot and frankly, it has served its purpose just fine for work, web surfing, general communications, etc.
For classic gaming though, Vista has been a bit of a pain and yes, the early driver support was pretty iffy. But again, I didn't buy the newer system for games, so it really doesn't matter.
Cheers, Terry
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 7:54pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (14 AUG 2009 7:50pm)
.
For me at least, Vista has been a real non-problem.
Already having a great Alienware gaming PC running XP,
Great minds! I purchased an Alienware PC running XP a year ago (refurbished 'cause I don't think Alienware sells XP-based PCs anymore) just for that purpose. First desktop PC that I've acquired that I didn't build myself (other than the HP IQ775) in over 11 years.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 9:23pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | I didn't purchase an alienware, but I did buy an XPS 720 with XP Pro (I use it for work though) :
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 9:23pm |
| Deleted User | [size=18][font=Times New Roman]All you techie guys are posting way over my poor head.
Half the terminology is gibberish to me :- FUD; IT; UAC; etc.
Perhaps somebody could advise in simple English what to recommend to me and any other poor ignorant suckers like me !
My confused take on my present situation is as follows :-
To date I have used XP for quite a few years. There are certain things I don't like about it and certainly things which I feel could have been (and should have been) eliminated rather than adding bloated 'extras'.
But by and large it has served me very well.
No way will I touch Vista at all or ever ! What with the criticisms leveled at that OS and notwithstanding the support of what seems to be a minority --- what would now be the point in switching to an OS which is dying and I think even pronounced dead ?
On the other hand, I SEEM to gather from here that some Forum experts imply that a very great deal of “7” is merely an extension of Vista containing many facets which have been greatly criticized.
If I understand correctly lengthy start/close times, maybe a very hefty O/S bulk needing updated notebooks, more RAM memory and maybe the same for PC’s, etc., etc.
So unless a good case alternative can be suggested, I think I’ll stick to my XP until I am literally forced willy nilly to abandon it for “7” or hopefully something even better !
I feel sorry for the Developers (several of whom I know personally) who have wasted time, energy, and maybe some money, adding Vista compatibility to their games --- unless this same compatibility (or nearly all of it) will be easily applicable to “7”.
P.S. My son’s “Conceptis” Graphic-Logic-Puzzle Co. which is by far the largest of its (limited) kind in the world employs somewhere between a half & one dozen full time people... and in addition, up to two dozen part time artists (since almost every one of the very many different types of puzzles starts with an artist’s picture and finishes with a player's successful solution of that picture).
All the work of the Co. (apart from personal visits to 60 countries) is done via the Net.
Everybody in the Co. still uses XP exclusively to date (although several have tried Vista and “7” for their own purposes !
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| 14 AUG 2009 at 10:57pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | No way will I touch Vista at all or ever !
You will of course eventually migrate to a new OS (and yes 7 is nothing more than a successor to Vista - and mostly still intact from what I've seen).
When will you migrate you ask?
When Microsoft's business partners (and let's face it that's what the hardware industry is) stop producing XP compatible devices and drivers. It's the same (successful) approach Microsoft took with XP all those years ago, when it buried Windows 98.
Never say never 8-)
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| 15 AUG 2009 at 12:34am |
| Deleted User | Never say never
[size=16]OK --- Hardly ever !!
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| 15 AUG 2009 at 6:54pm |
Ex-JAStaff3Private Detective
Posts : 734
Joined: 10 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | I have merged the two Goodbye Vista topics into one and moved everything to off topic.
Retired Spam Zapper & Troll Tackler
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| 15 AUG 2009 at 10:22pm |
| Deleted User | [size=16][font=Times New Roman]What is the exact status & expected future of "7" at present ?
I know people who have installed the beta version. Is the "final" version available to date?
If not, when is it expected to be released to the 'general public/ ?
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| 15 AUG 2009 at 11:43pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5537
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Windows 7 is due to be released October 22.
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