| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:46am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | ooooohhh.... provocative..... flaming, almost...... [smiley=nono.gif] [smiley=rofl.gif]
pass the popcorn....
[img]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5060/boxngring.jpg
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:53am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (11 AUG 2009 4:41am)
Originally Posted By InlandAZ (11 AUG 2009 2:55am)
As to mags… well… they do what sells… Those you mention are highly respected for the most part – but that doesn’t mean I have to take their word as the gospel. I find them interesting but I still form my own opinion.
Well, at least we agree on Myst.
I see you’ve come to your senses like Aya and myself then :
Hey, wait a sec - I still see that Sheriff badge, you can't fool me... You're funnin me.
Hey, on a completely off topic note: Did you see the news on Nucleosys (major league depression) :'(
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 10:37am |
| Deleted User | [size=16][font=Times New Roman]Two simple questions Inland :-
(1) WHY has Vista overwhelmingly acquired such an exceedingly bad name even after 2 years when so many people have 'got used to' that new OS ?
(2) WHY would Microsoft abandon "Vista" after the almost shortest time possible i.e. 2 ultra-brief years ?
**** N. B. And iannouncing the imminent work & release of "7" even earlier, put the kybosh on "Vista", since who in their tright mind will buy "Vista" knowing that a new (better?/updated?/"permanent"?) OS is due out very shortly ?
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 11:49am |
avatar_58Private Detective
Posts : 403
Joined: 27 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (11 AUG 2009 1:24am)
Any new OS is greeted with skepticism just as WinXP was, but WinXP proved itself by the 2nd year after SP1. That isn't true of Vista which is exactly why Microsoft is dumping the Vista name as fast as it can. Windows 7 may or may not be Vista SP3- that remains to be seen- but if Microsoft (and the rest of the industry) saw it that way, it certainly would not be getting rid of the Vista name. And MS wouldn't have been giving support of WinXP a reprieve until June, 2010, 8 months after the release of Windows 7 if Vista was as great as you're implying.
Give me a break, the reason they are dumping it is common sense - it's damaged. That's why this is 'Windows 7" and not some fancy moniker or Vista SE. They know damn well their PR for Vista worked in reverse, so now they've taken a "Windows 7! It's not Vista!" approach.
The reason I say the hate is mostly FUD is because I *work* with people like this. I am related to people like this. Most people who say they "heard vista sucks" or "used it once and hated it" have no leg to stand on. Yet somehow Windows 7 fixes all of this? It's the same damn thing! Microsoft is genius - they even included several of Vista's so called "annoying changes" that everyone hated. You know why? Those who haven't used Vista will be new to them and enjoy them, while existing Vista users will have forgotten all about XP and accept them - all the while loving the new speed that a new format will bring them.
I'm using both here and I'm telling you it's not any different. Check benchmarks if you don't believe me. Any gains are non-existent. The reason to use Windows 7 are the new features, and they are hardly worth shelling out for. In fact unless you've avoided Vista or are a die-hard "gotta have the newest and latest" like I am - just keep what you have if it works.
I usually laugh at Vista haters much like I laugh at mac users who buy the whole "It just works" nonsense. PR FUD at it's finest.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 1:06pm |
| Deleted User | [size=16][font=Times New Roman]Sorry avatar_58 but I find it VERY difficult to buy your above opinion !
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 3:20pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By InlandAZ (11 AUG 2009 4:53am)
Originally Posted By SirDave (11 AUG 2009 4:41am)
Originally Posted By InlandAZ (11 AUG 2009 2:55am)
As to mags… well… they do what sells… Those you mention are highly respected for the most part – but that doesn’t mean I have to take their word as the gospel. I find them interesting but I still form my own opinion.
Well, at least we agree on Myst.
I see you’ve come to your senses like Aya and myself then :
Hey, wait a sec - I still see that Sheriff badge, you can't fool me... You're funnin me.
Hey, on a completely off topic note: Did you see the news on Nucleosys (major league depression) :'(
Darn, that's too bad. They had to be working on something- in fact, I remember Augustin hinting something about it. I wonder what will happen to it. Is this a case of lack of funding or a falling out?
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 3:43pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (11 AUG 2009 11:49am)
Originally Posted By SirDave (11 AUG 2009 1:24am)
Any new OS is greeted with skepticism just as WinXP was, but WinXP proved itself by the 2nd year after SP1. That isn't true of Vista which is exactly why Microsoft is dumping the Vista name as fast as it can. Windows 7 may or may not be Vista SP3- that remains to be seen- but if Microsoft (and the rest of the industry) saw it that way, it certainly would not be getting rid of the Vista name. And MS wouldn't have been giving support of WinXP a reprieve until June, 2010, 8 months after the release of Windows 7 if Vista was as great as you're implying.
Give me a break, the reason they are dumping it is common sense - it's damaged. That's why this is 'Windows 7" and not some fancy moniker or Vista SE. They know damn well their PR for Vista worked in reverse, so now they've taken a "Windows 7! It's not Vista!" approach.
The reason I say the hate is mostly FUD is because I *work* with people like this. I am related to people like this. Most people who say they "heard vista sucks" or "used it once and hated it" have no leg to stand on. Yet somehow Windows 7 fixes all of this? It's the same damn thing! Microsoft is genius - they even included several of Vista's so called "annoying changes" that everyone hated. You know why? Those who haven't used Vista will be new to them and enjoy them, while existing Vista users will have forgotten all about XP and accept them - all the while loving the new speed that a new format will bring them.
I'm using both here and I'm telling you it's not any different. Check benchmarks if you don't believe me. Any gains are non-existent. The reason to use Windows 7 are the new features, and they are hardly worth shelling out for. In fact unless you've avoided Vista or are a die-hard "gotta have the newest and latest" like I am - just keep what you have if it works.
I usually laugh at Vista haters much like I laugh at mac users who buy the whole "It just works" nonsense. PR FUD at it's finest.
[size=14]You have a point that there are people who are Vista haters just for the sake of being Vista haters. These are the same type of people who bash Microsoft or Bill Gates for no good reason. I'm also aware that Win7 is going to be very similar to Vista- benchmark testing indicates that while it starts up faster and shuts down faster than Vista, it runs about the same as Vista. If someone is happy with their Vista setup (especially if they've upgraded to SP1), I see little reason to switch to Win7.
On the other hand, my problem is with your perspective: Saying that 'Vista's hate is mostly FUD, you admitted yourself you've never used it. Yet you claim it's a failure. It's opinions like that which spread false information and untrue statements. After years of stability under WinXP, Vista was a relative disaster/failure after the first year and a half. That's simply a fact as pointed out by all the major computer mag benchmark tests and the problems they ran into testing. It was rather surprising to see MS release a product that was that bloated, buggy, intrusive (think UAC) and slow after the success of WinXP. Another thing: Ever see Vista running on smaller laptops? - pathetic compared to XP.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:06pm |
anthonyJourneyman
Posts : 1270
Joined: 11 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | I'm not at all proficient when it comes to computers, but I don't see any real difference between XP and Vista.
The only two things that I have noticed is that:
1. Vista always asks me for my permission to allow a program to install. I view that as a good thing and not an irritation.
2. When Vista goes into sleep mode, it causes my monitor to think that is not connected to a signal. This requires me to shut off the monitor and turn it on again. This is a bit of an annoyance.
But all in all, I have no beef with Vista and I don't view it as materially different from XP.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:23pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
My experience with Vista Home Premium 32 over the past year or so has been okay, not great but certainly not a horrible.
That said, I definitely prefer Windows XP for several reasons (all listed previously in this thead) - the biggest being compatibility with older games, including a pretty long list of fairly recent titles like Gothic 2
Heck, I can't even get Vista to acknowledge the original, pristine CD let alone install the game. Another example is the original KOTOR, which installs and starts fine, but then crashes almost immediately after you create a new character and begin the story. NWN has some serious problems too as do many top-quality games from the XP era.
So I will not exactly miss Vista when it's gone.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 4:41pm |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Consensus, even based on ill-informed data or opinion, is more powerful and comfortable to some people than the facts. It is how political elections are won. It is how perceptions are maintained that conflict with actual truth. People feel smart and powerful when surrounded others who share an opinion. It is THE most powerful tool to turn the masses in one unified, biased direction. It is hard for anyone to be objective in a climate like that.
Vista is in the doghouse forever. Even though it is so close to 7, 7 can walk on water and makes you feel better about an operating system...mostly because most people say it's better than evil Vista.
To me (a non-tech) the competitive nature of the bravura-laced discussions here about operating systems are not instructive. You're arguing reputation not data. I realize you're also sharing opinions, but without source info, it doesn't help much. Please post the facts, if you can. I'm interested.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 5:00pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By TAS (11 AUG 2009 4:41pm)
Consensus, even based on ill-informed data or opinion, is more powerful and comfortable to some people than the facts. It is how political elections are won. It is how perceptions are maintained that conflict with actual truth. People feel smart and powerful when surrounded others who share an opinion. It is THE most powerful tool to turn the masses in one unified, biased direction. It is hard for anyone to be objective in a climate like that.
Vista is in the doghouse forever. Even though it is so close to 7, 7 can walk on water and makes you feel better about an operating system...mostly because most people say it's better than evil Vista.
To me (a non-tech) the competitive nature of the bravura-laced discussions here about operating systems are not instructive. You're arguing reputation not data. I realize you're also sharing opinions, but without source info, it doesn't help much. Please post the facts, if you can. I'm interested.
I'm not sure who you are referring to, Halcyon. But my above comments are based solely on personal experience with Windows Vista Home Premium 32.
The other problems I have experienced with Vista (not already specifically listed above) include comparatively slow bootup and shutdown times, zero compatibility with several fairly new peripherals that had to be replaced initially, some rather annoying random crash-dumps (evidently due to other driver issues), and the slightly annoying administrator permissions that keep popping up even though I am the only user and have granted myself full administator status.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 5:42pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TAS (11 AUG 2009 4:41pm)
To me (a non-tech) the competitive nature of the bravura-laced discussions here about operating systems are not instructive. You're arguing reputation not data. I realize you're also sharing opinions, but without source info, it doesn't help much. Please post the facts, if you can. I'm interested.
[size=14]Arguing reputation vs. data? Of all the Windows OS's, Microsoft has never abandoned an OS name, especially one hyped as much as Vista was (which btw cost them major $$$), after only 2 years. (Windows ME was a disaster but wasn't really abandoned as it was really only a buggy update of Win98SE intended only as a transition to XP). Why? This isn't rocket science. Initial testing of Vista and problems with it particularly over the first year are facts and are in all 3 of the major computer magazines (MaximumPC does particularly rigorous testing). The comments of inexperienced users could be dismissed as anecdotal, the latter cannot. Some here seem to look on this as the growing pains of any new OS, but in this case, going from a highly reliable efficient OS such as XP with an established history of 6-7 years to an OS with such ambitious objectives, requiring an almost complete rewrite of major parts of the code from the ground up, was an enormous gamble, a gamble that was more or less lost.
These magazines went from, during the period of late '06 to early '07 of being genuinely excited about Vista. By late fall of '07, they were starting to say that overall you were better off sticking with XP unless there were a few specifics in Vista that you wanted eg. parts of the interface you wanted or using Directx10 (not available for XP), which has very few benefits for most people at the moment.
As for giving you data- you must know how to use Google.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 5:48pm |
| Deleted User | [size=14]Excuse ignorance . I know what "FU" stands for, but have no idea what the "FUD" that pops up here represents !?
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 6:15pm |
| Deleted User | [font=Times New Roman]~~ Halcyon ~~ ... Consensus, even based on ill-informed data or opinion, is more powerful and comfortable to some people than the facts. It is how political elections are won. It is how perceptions are maintained that conflict with actual truth. People feel smart and powerful when surrounded others who share an opinion. It is THE most powerful tool to turn the masses in one unified, biased direction. It is hard for anyone to be objective in a climate like that.
[size=16]Microsoft are dumping Vista unceremoniously and VERY prematurely and I would guess losing many millions of dollars one way or another.
Surely you are not suggesting that they are doing this purely out of some nebulous, popularity, purely subjective feelings of a whole host of users, distributors, stores, developers, magazines, etc. etc.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 10:23pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (11 AUG 2009 10:36am)
[size=16][font=Times New Roman]Two simple questions Inland :-
(1) WHY has Vista overwhelmingly acquired such an exceedingly bad name even after 2 years when so many people have 'got used to' that new OS ?
(2) WHY would Microsoft abandon "Vista" after the almost shortest time possible i.e. 2 ultra-brief years ?
**** N. B. And iannouncing the imminent work & release of "7" even earlier, put the kybosh on "Vista", since who in their tright mind will buy "Vista" knowing that a new (better?/updated?/"permanent"?) OS is due out very shortly ?
I don't believe it's universally accepted as bad - although it does receive a lot of bad press (even from those that have never used it)
Why are they moving on? I've already stated my belief - plain ole good business (7 is a rebranded Vista with a face lift and Virtual PC built in).
Darn, that's too bad. They had to be working on something- in fact, I remember Augustin hinting something about it. I wonder what will happen to it. Is this a case of lack of funding or a falling out?
I believe it was a funding issue (they were developing an edutainment title - something about Taxes).
Let's just say - I for one hope to see Agustin back, and the sooner the better.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 10:31pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (11 AUG 2009 5:48pm)
[size=14]Excuse ignorance . I know what "FU" stands for, but have no idea what the "FUD" that pops up here represents !?
[size=14]From the wikipedia
[size=14]Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) is a tactic of rhetoric and fallacy used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs.
I didn't know either. I thought it was the same as FU with something like Dirt or Drivel on the end.
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 11:04pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By avatar_58 (11 AUG 2009 11:49am)
[size=14]The reason I say the hate is mostly FUD is because I *work* with people like this. I am related to people like this. Most people who say they "heard vista sucks" or "used it once and hated it" have no leg to stand on. Yet somehow Windows 7 fixes all of this? It's the same damn thing! Microsoft is genius - they even included several of Vista's so called "annoying changes" that everyone hated. You know why? Those who haven't used Vista will be new to them and enjoy them, while existing Vista users will have forgotten all about XP and accept them - all the while loving the new speed that a new format will bring them.
I'm using both here and I'm telling you it's not any different. Check benchmarks if you don't believe me. Any gains are non-existent.
[size=14]I have a laptop with Vista. My biggest problem with it has been how long it takes to boot. It doesn't take all that long to get to the desktop, but it persists in grinding away, doing things behind the scenes, and doesn't respond to user input until it's finished "housekeeping." This is especially annoying on a laptop, where you want to turn it off before moving it around. I've tried various tips to reduce boot time, but none of them seem to have made much difference. I've seen and worked with several Vista computers, and some of them take even longer to boot than my laptop. The long boot time leaves a bad impresssion of Vista for anyone who turns off their PC at night.
Windows 7 is supposed to have a much faster boot time. Have you not noticed this?
I've only played casual games on this laptop because it has Intel video, which won't support most adventure games. But on a "real" gaming computer, backwards compatibility with my older games would be one of my top priorities. What about games that work on XP but not Vista? Will Windows 7 be better or worse for backwards compatibility?
Here are a couple of websites that explain how Windows 7's approach to backwards compatibility differs from Vista's.
http://windows7news.com/2008/04/09/windows-7-backwards-compatibility/
http://thebetaguy.com/exclusives/?postid=1029344029&title=microsoft-windows-7-exclusive
So Vista maintains backwards compatibility by storing libraries from earlier versions of Windows, while Windows 7 uses "virtualization." I'm still unclear on how well older adventure games (such as games made for Windows 98 and early versions of XP) are going to work on Windows 7 -- especially the ones that won't work in Virtual PC because they need a video card with hardware 3D acceleration. Will they (can they?) have to be played using a utility like 3dAnalyze?
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/tools/3d_analyze/download/
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 11:15pm |
| Deleted User | [size=16]Jenny 100 --- "FUD" -------------- Thanks (I also thought it was merely some "extension" of "FU"
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| 11 AUG 2009 at 11:45pm |
FnordSchattenjger
Posts : 2752
Joined: 15 SEP 2008
Location: SE, Stockholm
Status : Offline | Many of the "anti-Vista" arguments are the very same that people used when winXP was released. And when win95 was released.... Truth to be told, it takes years for a new OS to reach its peak performance. XP was far from a perfect OS 2 years after its released, containing many bugs and some severe security holes. Vista is, by XP standards, still a new OS, so it is of course not as near its potential stability/power/security as Xp.
Windows 7 is supposed to have a much faster boot time. Have you not noticed this?
This is something that they could have fixed in vista as well (and most likely will). I have not noticed any problems with vistas boot time (but I don't use vista on my computer... mainly because i can't afford it, as i'm a poor student). When vista was released, it was in a sorry state. Buggy, unstable, slow. Most of these problems have been fixed by now. Not all, mind you, but vista really does not deserve all the hate that it gets.
Thanks to vistas poor start, it got a very bad reputation. Microsoft is dropping the brand name (but all the work behind it) because they understand that if they release a new OS people will think that its something brand new, and not simply an update of something old. The update will most likely be far smaller than the one that Win 9X got when jumping from 95 to 98.
Backwards compatibility will always be a problem with a new OS. While windows 95 and 98 were very similar (and thus 95 programs worked in 9 the jump from 9X to XP meant that a lot of 95, and even many 98 programs would not work. The jump from 3.X meant that many 3.X programs would not work. In time we might see windows XP emulators, but for now we will simply have to live with the fact that not everything will work in vista and either run Dual boot, or stick to the programs that works.
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| 12 AUG 2009 at 12:00am |
HalcyonSchattenjger
Posts : 1652
Joined: 17 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Well, of course I can look up the facts, but so can anyone to support an argument. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I found a bit of humor in the approach to the debate here and I responded in that context. I appreciate the links, etc. I'll back out slowly now and let youse duke it out.
_________________
Exercise your vision.
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