| 18 JUL 2009 at 11:21pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | It wouldn't work. I wish it could, but it won't. No way, no how. I don't understand why people can't restrain from personal attacks in those kinds of discussions, but it will happen, guaranteed.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 10:59am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TC (18 JUL 2009 10:09pm)
Following the forum's closure, lots of prominent members left in protestation, and I kind of agreed with them. It felt, shall we say, like we were being told off for behaving naughtily. Not a very pleasant feeling for mature adults.
Just as many members left because of the arguments in that section and it attracted trolls who liked to stir the pot.
It affected the tone of the whole forum and detracted from the main point of the site which is adventure games.
There are plenty of websites that host free forums that can be set up. Maybe somone can set up something on proboard or Forumotion etc.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 12:56pm |
| Deleted User | I was initially going to try and keep my big mouth shut for a change. ...but as most of you know by now, that is very hard for me to do, so I will simply refer you to this thread here.. http://justadventure.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1247718397/15#15
(Note that it is in the AG forum about gaming - not supposed to be an inflammatory subject even approaching the potential of any P and R subject), to point out the absolute fallaciousness of a statment such as this:
aren't all of us on these boards mature enough to participate in such discussion and discourse without it getting out of hand, derailing toward an unfathomable abyss?
I think the answer to the above is; - probably not; as has been quite amply demonstrated in the past here on the Off-topic forum.
Just looking at the thread I had pointed to above, it would suggest a reply to:
Really now, wouldn't it be a test of the civility and decorum we're all capable of?
- to being: yes, it would be a test, most probably a test too harsh to withstand.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 3:30pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Well Traveler, that just proves another thing which might help my case:
Such virtual wars ("flame wars" can erupt in any forum and over any subject. But your example is pretty mild, no? Things seem to have calmed down after the strange, initial outburst.
Len -
I totally agree with everything you've said. Except I think that part of being a grown, mature person is to be able to take insults and ad hominems (especially since we're all on average thousands of miles away from each other ), but more importantly - being able to transcend, rise above it and ignore the attack. Yes, it's possible and even necessary to point out to the attacker that he/she has stooped to ad hominems/irrelevant insults. But stop there - I mean, why stoop lower?
This is something I learned recently. I've matured quite a lot in a short period of time, I guess the momentum was building up and now it's free to charge forward. Just in time for twenty years of existence I guess.
Lucien - Thanks for the input, I'll check on those sites you mentioned. Might be worth a shot.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 4:06pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | I can't stop laughing over here.
Really? You want to go open this can of worms? The same person who went on a tangent about being forced into the military? The same person who later came back going on a tangent against women? Which is ironic, considering the vast number of people who were sympathetic and supportive of what you were going through were women. Talk about turning around and spitting in their faces.
Two things:
- As Sir Dave once pointed out, the mods volunteered to moderate an Adventure Gaming site, not a P&R site.
- Just starting this thread is a violation of the rules.
You want my opinion? This isn't about wanting to have mature discussions about P&R, this about YOU wanting a platform to vent and get attention. Even recently you made a post bashing women in a topic that had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Here you say how your views have changed? Gimme a break...
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 4:13pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ TC ~~
I've deleted my post (which was above).
I have a feeing that its call for lofgical argumentation based on facts and neutral opinions only could easily turn into personal slanging or even flaming, which would be a contradiction in terms --- and also a big waste of time & energy.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 4:19pm |
| Deleted User | [size=18]I was writing my above post just as Ivinia posted his and hence did not see it before posting mine !!(you can check the times).
As I imagined, the whole subject could easily turn on its head and lead to recriminations and further mud-slinging --- whether factually accurate &/or "justified" or not !
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 4:56pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (19 JUL 2009 4:06pm)
I can't stop laughing over here.
Really? You want to go open this can of worms? The same person who went on a tangent about being forced into the military? The same person who later came back going on a tangent against women? Which is ironic, considering the vast number of people who were sympathetic and supportive of what you were going through were women. Talk about turning around and spitting in their faces.
Two things:
- As Sir Dave once pointed out, the mods volunteered to moderate an Adventure Gaming site, not a P&R site.
- Just starting this thread is a violation of the rules.
You want my opinion? This isn't about wanting to have mature discussions about P&R, this about YOU wanting a platform to vent and get attention. Even recently you made a post bashing women in a topic that had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Here you say how your views have changed? Gimme a break...
Yay, here's a great chance to practise what I've just preached!
Look, my rant back then wasn't against women per se. It was against the "godification" and exaltation of women to goddess status in the western world (media, literature, academia, 'justice system' etc...), and I explained why I equally reject this practice whether it's done by a woman or by a man (ironically, I was much more peeved with the men who allow themselves to become serfs in the name of worshipping women, I was much less angry with the gals in this case), so as you can see - I had a much bigger axe to grind with men than with women.
Even recently you made a post bashing women in a topic that had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Here you say how your views have changed? Gimme a break...
I would greatly appreciate an accurate citation/reference of that post in which I allegedly "bash women". I did paraphrase a famous quote by Churchill to make a statement about feminism, which has nothing to do with (sane) women in general.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 5:28pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Made my point.
Here we go again with those old familiar words of recriminations, mud slinging, demands of proof, etc.
If this carries on, then there will be the other familiar words such as slander, lawsuits, demands of public apologies, etc. Let us not forget the endless quotes within quotes about he said this and she said that. People who were once friends in gaming now hate each other with a passion.
When people start showing up who have no interest in Adventure Games, but just want to troll the P&R section - you know there is a problem. When Randy posted about being threatened with being reported to Jewish Defamation League because of something someone he doesn't even know said in a post in an area that had nothing to do with what he started the site for - you know there is a problem.
This is an Adventure Gaming site. Plain and simple. You can go on about your new level of maturity all you want. I'm not buying it.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 8:03pm |
TCPrivate Detective
Posts : 688
Joined: 14 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (19 JUL 2009 5:28pm)
Made my point.
Here we go again with those old familiar words of recriminations, mud slinging, demands of proof, etc.
If this carries on, then there will be the other familiar words such as slander, lawsuits, demands of public apologies, etc. Let us not forget the endless quotes within quotes about he said this and she said that. People who were once friends in gaming now hate each other with a passion.
When people start showing up who have no interest in Adventure Games, but just want to troll the P&R section - you know there is a problem. When Randy posted about being threatened with being reported to Jewish Defamation League because of something someone he doesn't even know said in a post in an area that had nothing to do with what he started the site for - you know there is a problem.
This is an Adventure Gaming site. Plain and simple. You can go on about your new level of maturity all you want. I'm not buying it.
Oh well, I was simply making a suggestion. You may make of it whatever you wish to, as far as I'm concerned it's a completely innocuous request. If you choose to see it as some sinister scheme, that's your prerogative.
I believe you meant the Anti-Defamation League? Those people are wackos.
And like I said - trolling is not unique to P&R, it can and does occur on any other forum, even the Adventure-related ones.
P.S. For the record, I wasn't recriminating you with anything. I was merely curious to know more specifically what you meant by me "bashing women" in some post. A reasonable inquiry IMHO.
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 8:15pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
You're right TC, trolling / flame-baiting does occur elsewhere as do heated arguments about a wide variety of subjects.
But P&R topics invite strong, deeply felt opinions on very serious, generally contentious matters.
More to the point, they evoke passionate responses that often lead to hurt feelings and bad blood.
Cheers, Terry
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 8:31pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | When I first read the opening of this thread, I found myself heading in the same direction that Ivinia did, but since he did such a good job of explaining it, I won't go into it much.
However, TC, you weren't around during the P&R days and you don't have any way of knowing (directly) what happened there. IMO (and some of this has already been mentioned), there were 2 main reasons P&R self-destructed: 1) There were people who would not discuss things carefully and logically, but would rely on emotion, drama, anecdotes, referrals to websites with agendas and all the rest that goes with it and 2) Trolls who would come out of nowhere to just cause trouble.
Unfortunately, you probably fall into the first group. You've certainly improved, but your response to Ivinia above still indicates a defensive, quick-on-the-trigger type of response that merely provokes and/or ratchets things up a notch or two.
With the benefit of hindsight, something like P&R requires great restraint on the part of everyone and people who tacitly agree to play fair. I don't absolve myself from being part of the puzzle either. I'm not very patient when I feel people are playing fast & loose with facts and who seem to be nothing but trouble-makers. So, to some extent with people like group 1) & 2) and people like me, you had yourself a perfect storm.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 8:47pm |
| Deleted User | [size=18][font=Times New Roman]~~ TC ~~
I believe you meant the Anti-Defamation League? Those people are wackos.
Although I agree with much that you say --- In what way are the ADL "wackos" --- I know little about them except that they are an International organisation founded almost one hundred years ago and operating mainly from USA whose objective is to compat ratcial & religious pejudice & hatred.
I blieve that their main concern is a fight against Anti-Semitism (and Anti -Israel a fair amount of which fundamentally & psychologically derives from the same scourge --- although many deny it !) which is quite pervasive in many countries in the world.
Do you think that that makes them wackos?
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 8:59pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ TC (& Ivinia) ~~
Who said what about women (and men) ?
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?
Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please.
Whenever you're with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?
COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?
COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?
COLONEL PICKERING:
Never.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Well, why can't a woman be like you?
One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then, there's one with slight defects.
One perhaps whose truthfulness you doubt a bit,
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!
Why can't a woman take after a man?
'Cause men are so friendly, good-natured and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner would you bellow?
COLONEL PICKERING:
Of course not.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?
COLONEL PICKERING:
Nonsense.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?
Pickering
Never.
PROFESSOR HIGGINS:
Why can't a woman be like us?
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps;
Ready to help you through any mishaps;
Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?
Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 9:15pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By LenG (19 JUL 2009 8:59pm)
Why can't a woman be like us?
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
...cuz most of the men don't like 'em so much anymore if they are... [smiley=wink.gif]
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 9:33pm |
HelenGuild Master
Posts : 3436
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (19 JUL 2009 9:15pm)
Originally Posted By LenG (19 JUL 2009 8:59pm)
Why can't a woman be like us?
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
...cuz most of the men don't like 'em so much anymore if they are... [smiley=wink.gif]
[smiley=rofl.gif]
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| 19 JUL 2009 at 9:48pm |
JA-Staff2Private Detective
Posts : 466
Joined: 4 JUN 2004
Location: 0
Status : Online | I want to applaud those that kept this discussion at a high level.
It's unfortunate that this discussion then crossed over into detailed political discussion by certain individuals forcing me to lock this thread and further proving why P&R does NOT belong on an Adventure Gaming forum.
Certain people have been warned repeatedly in PMs about crossing the line and brushing this subject matter, yet once again here we are dealing with those same individuals. I would strongly suggest not doing this routine again. If you want to discuss P&R, there are plenty of websites out there that do so.
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| 21 JUL 2009 at 7:23am |
Agent BreaPrivate Detective
Posts : 705
Joined: 17 OCT 2006
Location: 0
Status : Online | Well, you don't visit for a while (having left the forum to the capable hands of Karla and staff) and there we go again, same ol' same ol'. It is Randy's decision, there will NEVER be a P&R discussion board on this forum again, period. And a very wise decision that is. Thankfully there are dozens of places on the net where you can go and talk P&R, so quit asking about it.
Your last waking moments are marked by wretched pain as you provide dinner for a group of ill-mannered dinner guests that just wouldn't leave.
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