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Topic: Research Project - Need Opinions/Answers Thank you

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All Forums : [Adventure Games Forum] : Adventure Game Discussion > Research Project - Need Opinions/Answers Thank you

#1 16 JUL 2009 at 4:27am
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	Hello my name is Sean Brady. I am a student researching the reason behind the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games. I was wondering if it was possible to get your opinion on the whole matter. I am dealing with both the development/commercial reasoning and consumer/player interest. If it is possible to get your opinion on both sides that would be fantastic. I appreciate the time given and thank you sincerely. The question ultimately is "what factors account for the unpopularity of point and click graphical adventures?" NOTE: The opinions expressed will be transcribed within the research dissertation with the names of the suppliers beside them but it can be arranged to remain anonymous if required. Any indication about individuals who from your knowledge would provide a valuable viewpoint, please don't hesitate to say, thank you. Thank you once, again. Any opinion / voice is greatly appreciated
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#2 16 JUL 2009 at 8:29am
Deleted User	Wow - you want to know about the UN-popularity of point-and-click? From where I'm standing, the vast majority of adventures still being released- and believe me, this is by popular demand - seems to be point and click. As soon as mouselook/continuous movement/WASD is used, a cry seems to go up from a bunch of people who insist on point-and-click. Even a lot of RPG's still seem to be making use of point and click. The Frogwares Sherlock Holmes Adventures which came out with WASD were eventually modded to include a point and click interface for all the point-and-click fans...

#3 16 JUL 2009 at 10:05am
Caroline JA+ Overseer Posts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline	Hello Sean Is point and click unpopular? As measured against what stardard? And is such a claim backed by figures that consider what if any effect the game and gamer-age play in this choice? Perhaps you could tell us a little more about this paper you are writing? There are a few students here.
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#4 16 JUL 2009 at 1:00pm
stevemac Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 91 Joined: 15 OCT 2002 Status : Online	Personally I think that this misnomer is mainly due to a few things. One is the desire for instant profit by some developers, so they tend to focus on fast action packed games (often war based) with the potential of follow ups being released in a very short time as the marketing people continually push that the 'now' generation has very little attention span and wants instant gratification, which is not usually the case in an adventure game, which is generally more of a slow build up to a climax. It's not helped by the gaming press, but at the same time I realise that they need the support of these developers to stay in business as they do rely on companies sending them games to review, so it's in their own interest to appeal to the so called 'now' generation. However, if you plough through the postings on this and other adventure game websites worldwide, you'll see that the point and clicker is still very popular ...and as so few point and clickers see the light of day in the gaming press, these sites are the first choice of 'adventure gamers' to discover the new games that are being released. Best of luck with your reasearch.
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#5 16 JUL 2009 at 1:37pm
Deleted User	Sean, it might be useful for you to specify exactly what you mean by "the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games. " Do you mean Adventure Games (Graphical Quest Adventures) in general, or only point and click ones - which would imply that Graphical Adventure games not making use of a point-and click interface is popular in comparison? Or do you mean Adventure games are unpopular as compared to more action-based games such as Action-adventures including platformers, fighting games, sport games, casual games, shooters and strategy games? Do you mean to imply by "point-and-click" PC as platform, as opposed to console as platform? In which demographic are they perceived to be "unpopular" and what are your criteria for "popularity/unpopularity" ? We've had many discussions on this site about : "The death of the Graphical Adventure game is nigh", but with different emphases, and some also have to do with interface, while others touch on content and pace, etc. I think it would be in your own interest to narrow down the discussion to exactly the points you are looking at in your paper (eg. "point-and click interface" or "puzzles as main content as opposed to action" or "quality/thechnology employed in making of AG's tend to be lower than that of other genres" or "the criteria that each demographic of the population require to have a satisfying gaming experience" etc.

#6 16 JUL 2009 at 1:53pm
Jenny100 Guild Master Posts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By virtualpsycho (16 JUL 2009 4:26am)* Hello my name is Sean Brady. I am a student researching the reason behind the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games. I think there is some confusion here. Are you asking about the unpopularity of point and click controls to interact with adventure games (as opposed to keyboard or gamepad)? or are you asking about the unpopularity of the adventure games themselves? Because point and click is a very popular control system for adventure games (and some RPG's). If you're talking about unpopularity of adventure games that use a point and click system (as opposed to the relative popularity of action/adventures like Tomb Raider), that is a different question. I'd give the following reasons: Most general gamers (gamers who enjoy more than one genre) don't enjoy getting "stuck" on a puzzle that takes a long time to figure out. They also prefer gameplay that allows more freedom of movement. Point-and-click adventures tend to be node-based. Most general gamers prefer games that look better. Compare the appearance of the latest RPG and action games with the latest adventures. The adventure games don't have the visual detail or special effects because developer budgets are limited and system requirements have to be kept as low as possible so as many adventure gamers as possible (even those with older computers) are able to play them. This tends to be a vicious cycle -- Adventure games have low budgets because they aren't expected to sell as well, and at least part of the reason they don't sell as well is that they don't look as polished as more action-oriented genres. The people who are most likely to enjoy a point and click adventure hare not been the ones targeted by the game industry and advertisers. Retirees and female gamers are more apt to enjoy adventure games than young male gamers, yet this potential audience is largely ignored. Word of mouth doesn't work well for adventure games the way it does for movies or books. If an adventure gamer suggests a game to a non-gamer friend, their suggestion will probably be ignored. People unacquainted with adventure games don't realize the more sedate style of gameplay exists, but they know they don't want to play a shooter. You might check this article for other ideas on how "blockbuster mentality" affects which games will be funded and developed: *In the Shadow of the Monster*
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#7 16 JUL 2009 at 2:27pm
Caroline JA+ Overseer Posts : 16540 Joined: 28 JAN 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline	Sean It's a pity you didn't think to provide us with some comparative sales figures - that way we wouldn't get side-tracked arguing about the unfortunate semantics of your post. 'Unpopular'.... hmmmm .... this choice of word implies dislike. I'd rather say that console game sales figures exceed computer games figures. Then I'd look for reasons why that is. Windows 95 saw the global explosion in home computer sales - and it wasn't so we could all work out our income tax. It was for entertainment. Despite suddenly becoming more user-friendly, computers continued to present their owners with technical problems requiring specialist expertise. Console games avoided this. Computer games are usually single player. Console games support multiple players as well as offering online gaming with strangers around the world - all delivered easily and reliably to the family television. Consoles were considerably cheaper to buy than computers which required their own furniture and space. The perceived need to be constantly updating a computer compared to the consoles is an added deterrent. The age of the demographic group studied will reveal different attitudes to leisure time activities, the value of technology as well as the manual dexterity of the gamers concerned. Your essay will need to be quite long to do this topic justice. o you have your topic outlined yet?
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#8 16 JUL 2009 at 3:25pm
JKing Schattenjger Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Caroline (16 JUL 2009 2:27pm)* Computer games are usually single player. Console games support multiple players as well as offering online gaming with strangers around the world - all delivered easily and reliably to the family television. Caroline, online gaming on consoles is a very recent phenomenon---only with the current crop of consoles has it really taken off; online gaming has, by comparison, been around on computers since the 1980s, and took off in earnest in the mid 1990s, Warcraft II probably being the first example of "online" (as opposed to IPX LAN) multiplayer. I'm sure millions of players of World of Warcraft, EVE Online, Guild Wars, Unreal Tournament 3 and so on would disagree with you most emphatically. You can't kill someone in a studio.
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#9 16 JUL 2009 at 3:32pm
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By Caroline (16 JUL 2009 2:27pm)* Sean Computer games are usually single player. Console games support multiple players as well as offering online gaming with strangers around the world - all delivered easily and reliably to the family television. Um.. I beg to differ with you on that one, Caroline... - consoles only started going online quite recently. The Big Daddy of online gaming has always been the PC. Even most single player competitive games have options for gaming online or with LAN. EDIT: Ah- only saw your post after I posted, JKing. The perceived need to be constantly updating a computer compared to the consoles is an added deterrent. That one is a two-edged sword. The problem with consoles as they are still currently being built (although the industry is starting to catch on to the advantages of upgradeability), is the very fact that they have up to now not been upgradeable. You had to wait roughly 10 years for the next version of your console to be released, and only then would you see an increase in the quality of your gaming experience. To me personally, the scope for customization is one of the greatest advantages of the PC. You can upgrade as much as you want, at any time that you prefer, and hooray, games are not bound to a certain version of your platform - especially with the virtual OS's that have been built with such zeal for the gaming community. Also, it is the PC, with it's qualities of quick upgradeability, that has fueled improvements in thechnology for the industry (eg. Crysis and it's physics technology) in a similar way the racing cars stimulate improvements in MV technology. Regarding backwards compatibility: I believe that owners of PS3's have the distinct disadvantage of not being able to play PS2 (or PS1 for that matter) games on their machines? (So I've heard- I'm not 100% sure of the veracity of this) EDIT: I've been trying to look this up, and what I've found so far, is that some models apparently have limited backwards compatibilty. All of them seem to be capable of playing PS1 games, but not all PS3's can play any or all PS2 games.

#10 16 JUL 2009 at 4:28pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. By nature, PC adventure games, which predominently use a classic point-and-click interface, are comparatively static, linear and slow paced. More relevant to the question is that they generally have a high degree of difficulty in terms of problem solving / puzzle solving that simply does not appeal to the average person of any age. That is why there have been only a handful of high-selling PC adventure games compared to action titles and simpler sims. As pointed out above, the genre also suffers from a (nearly) complete lack of multiplayer options online or via LAN, which are very popular play styles around the world today. Additionally, adventure games do not lend themselves to EPs or player-created mods, two more very big advantages that many action titles, RPGs and other categories enjoy. Lastly, due to the dwindling commercial popularity of PC adventure games in recent years, most large studios, publishers and retailers have abandoned the genre - or at the very least, shifted to the 3D action-adventure format that still has some significant mass-market appeal. The net effect is that most core talent has gone elsewhere in both the PC and video console game arena. Production and marketing budgets have also dropped dramatically because most investors realize that the potential ROI for PC adventures is very small compared to today's more popular genres. This in turn makes development of adventures with cutting-edge 3D graphics, directional surround sound, advanced physics and AI, etc. cost prohibitive for most of the remaining commercial adventure-game studios and virtually all of the indies. Given all those distinct disadvantages, a good subsequent question would be, what would it take to resurrect the adventure-game genre to popular status and commercial success. But it is probably best that we address that issue in a different survey and in another thread. Cheers, Terry .
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#11 16 JUL 2009 at 6:11pm
JKing Schattenjger Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By TheTraveler (16 JUL 2009 3:32pm)* I've been trying to look this up, and what I've found so far, is that some models apparently have limited backwards compatibilty. All of them seem to be capable of playing PS1 games, but not all PS3's can play any or all PS2 games. The earliest models of PS3 had hardware emulation of the PS2 (they essentially included a PS2-on-a-chip within the PS3). Later hardware emulation was dropped and more expensive models instead had inferior software emulation and cheaper models (like mine) had none. Current models have no PS2 emulation whatsoever, across the board. All models, however, do indeed have PSX emulation (also hardware emulation) which is identical to that provided by the PS2. You can't kill someone in a studio.
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#12 16 JUL 2009 at 6:27pm
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By JKing (16 JUL 2009 6:11pm)* *Originally Posted By TheTraveler (16 JUL 2009 3:32pm)* I've been trying to look this up, and what I've found so far, is that some models apparently have limited backwards compatibilty. All of them seem to be capable of playing PS1 games, but not all PS3's can play any or all PS2 games. The earliest models of PS3 had hardware emulation of the PS2 (they essentially included a PS2-on-a-chip within the PS3). Later hardware emulation was dropped and more expensive models instead had inferior software emulation and cheaper models (like mine) had none. Current models have no PS2 emulation whatsoever, across the board. All models, however, do indeed have PSX emulation (also hardware emulation) which is identical to that provided by the PS2. I don't know if you agree, but it sounds to me as if that sux. > It just doesn't sound quite fair!

#13 16 JUL 2009 at 6:33pm
JKing Schattenjger Posts : 2349 Joined: 4 MAY 2008 Location: 0 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By TheTraveler (16 JUL 2009 6:26pm)* I don't know if you agree, but it sounds to me as if that sux. > It just doesn't sound quite fair! It's not, but I can understand Sony wanting to cut the price of the PS3 to be competitive with the less-featureful competition, and the original PS3 feature-set was, presumably, very expensive per-unit to implement. I'm happy I paid less than the original asking price for the machine, anyway... You can't kill someone in a studio.
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#14 16 JUL 2009 at 10:11pm
loobiloo Private Detective Posts : 598 Joined: 3 APR 2008 Location: UK Status : Offline	I don't know a whole lot about this except that I have a PS3 which I use to play mainly film DVDS & some music CDs. It's linked to the internet & Sony had been working on updating the playability of older games (i.e. PS1 & 2) & there was/is a list. It's quite a long time ago I looked but at that point there didn't seem to be any AGs included! It's a system my partner set up who is not around to ask about at the moment - when I get time to get my head around it I'll look some more!
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#15 17 JUL 2009 at 5:17am
Halcyon Schattenjger Posts : 1652 Joined: 17 NOV 2006 Status : Offline	Well, I'd like to see VirtualPsycho come back and pay attention to the replies here. Adventure gaming on PC is a niche group, and point-and-click a sub-group of that group. How on earth can that be of importance to a paper? I mean, who else is paying attention? I happen to NOT prefer PAC if the game is good. However if the game is pedestrian and there's a lot of running, gimme the point and click! Bottom line, I just want good stories and challenges...and no lame cartoons or worn-out humor. But that's just me. _________________ Exercise your vision.
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#16 17 JUL 2009 at 1:53pm
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	"Well, I'd like to see VirtualPsycho come back and pay attention to the replies here." @ Halcyon Well I think you should keep unproductive comments to yourself > . I have things in my life that take up time just like anybody else. How dare you even make a comment like that. What makes you even think you have the right. I am student just like many other people here. Everyone here has lives just like me. Nobody has the right to even say that. I cant believe I am even explaining to someone who has the gaul to even say this. I had family business to take care of. This will not happen again. I am not trying to any problems right from the get go but I had to respond. I will respond when I am able and good and ready. All and any unhelpful comments keep them to yourself. All I am doing is looking for responses about this particular issue for a research project, not to judge or ridiculed by some stranger for a tiny bit late in responding. Good day, take care. Note: I appreciate your comments and opinions expressed about the issue and I will clarify any misconceptions for yourself and other members in the following post. Thank you.
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#17 17 JUL 2009 at 2:25pm
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	@stevemac = Thank you for useful information, there were some things that I was unaware of. Really useful. It is very much apprectiated. @-The Traveller Sean, it might be useful for you to specify exactly what you mean by "the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games. " = I am talking about the fall of the type of adventure which was exhibited by developers during the peak of the golden age of adventure games. you mean Adventure Games (Graphical Quest Adventures) in general, or only point and click ones - which would imply that Graphical Adventure games not making use of a point-and click interface is popular in comparison? = At the height of the golden age a combination of the two of them were used collaboratively within adventure games. This could be a possible reason (which would imply that Graphical Adventure games not making use of a point-and click interface is popular in comparison?) but there could others and that is what I am looking for. Or do you mean Adventure games are unpopular as compared to more action-based games such as Action-adventures including platformers, fighting games, sport games, casual games, shooters and strategy games? Do you mean to imply by "point-and-click" PC as platform, as opposed to console as platform? = I am looking all reasons behind it and find out which has contributed the most towards it. Do you mean to imply by "point-and-click" PC as platform, as opposed to console as platform? = I am looking to collect them all and organise them and outlined the prime area of influence such as gameplay, aesthetic nature, etc.... Altogether it is such an open subject that if I narrow it down anymore it will be to narrow for the research lecturers marking it. @Jenny100 = Are you asking about the unpopularity of point and click controls to interact with adventure games (as opposed to keyboard or gamepad)? or are you asking about the unpopularity of the adventure games themselves? Because point and click is a very popular control system for adventure games (and some RPG's). = I am looking to collect together all the reasons behind the fall of the classic graphical point and click adventure game of the golden age and then outline the main influencing reason to benefit the development evdeavours of classic adventure game creators of the future. There is no specific segment I am focusing on because it is such a subjective subject. The action/adventure type games are not being focused on. Thank you for the reasons I appreciate them tremendously. Really great. The rest are being answered as you read this, thank you.
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#18 17 JUL 2009 at 2:42pm
Deleted User	Virtualpsycho, I would suggest, that for interest sake, you read that article that Jenny100 linked to in her post, which highlights the influence and importance of marketing in this whole matter. I have long been of the opinion that marketing has a lot to do with this whole issue. You will see posters and advertisements for all kinds of action games, especially shooters, all over the place. At our local gaming store, there are posters and those cardboard figures with images portraying scenes from the latest shooters all over the place, and a mannequin of Lara Croft meets you as you walk in through the door. Have you ever, in the last 10 years, seen anything like that for an Adventure game? When you page through PC or gaming magazines, you see adverts for shooters and MMORPGs plastered all over the place... - can you imagine the shock you'd feel if you actually saw one for an Adventure game? [smiley=rofl.gif]

#19 17 JUL 2009 at 4:45pm
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	@ Caroline= Sales figures are researchable by anyone if they are interested. I will collect them when I have nailed down the amounts of areas concerning this issue. "Unfortunate semantics of your post": Honestly I dont see the issue as unclear, neither has Dave Gilbert of Wadjet Eye Games, Frictional Games, Cyanide Studios, the development team of THE WITCHER sequel and FireFly Worlds plus the members who have responded from the garagegames, adventure game studio's and wintermute engine online forum communities. "I am a student researching the reason behind the recent (1990's - present) unpopularity of point and click graphic adventure games." Basically the decline of 'popularity' of 'point and click graphical adventure games' from the early 1990's (Golden age timeline = 1988-1993 -1990- middle of time period) to the 'present' day types of games offered to the public. It is quite clear to me. "'Unpopular'.... hmmmm .... this choice of word implies dislike. I'd rather say that console game sales figures exceed computer games figures. Then I'd look for reasons why that is." = I love adventure games I have been playing ever since I could click a mouse. The context of the console games exceeding computer game sales figures is a similar but much wider argument than the one I have chosen. "Your essay will need to be quite long to do this topic justice. o you have your topic outlined yet?" I am basically trying to collect as many as I can and organise them, display them and then pin point the most significant one/ones. The dissertation can be 10,000-12,000 words overall but the paper does have to include every single detail/facade to fully justified. I need to just include the most important/overly used reasons rather than all of them. If I use all of them I will loose marks which I cannot afford. Thank you for extra viewpoints, they are invaluable. Just for clarification purposes I will describe the research methods I am taking, firstly is the interview or online questionning as displayed here. This interviewing with one single question is utilised in this manner as to uncover a multitude of reasons that may be referred during my discussion section of my research paper. This subject is not black and white due to the various perspectives and interests of participants taken. Secondly is a content analysis of transcribed and published interviews on the internet. Any to do with the game type of the golden age of graphical adventure games. @Jking = Thank you for useful points, much appreciated. @Terry Penrod = Thank you for interesting insights and points. @Loobiloo = thank you for useful info and contribution. @Halcyon = "Adventure gaming on PC is a niche group, and point-and-click a sub-group of that group. How on earth can that be of importance to a paper? I mean, who else is paying attention?" Every genre/game type has spawned further hyrid types in all areas, and plus every niche group has their set of followers because every has different interests. I am interested in the decline of popularity of this type of game utilised during the golden age of adventure games (which I enjoyed) not because I love the functionality of point and click or anything, I am using that as a reference since it was the game type used. That's all. "I happen to NOT prefer PAC if the game is good. However if the game is pedestrian and there's a lot of running, gimme the point and click! Bottom line, I just want good stories and challenges...and no lame cartoons or worn-out humor. But that's just me." I would have to agree with you there. @TheTraveller= That is one important area to consider, thank you for reminding of the article I just about missed it. The advert thing would be quite weird alright. Cheers for useful information. Very much appreciated.
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#20 17 JUL 2009 at 5:11pm
Thaumaturge Journeyman Posts : 999 Joined: 11 MAY 2006 Status : Offline	My apologies if any of this is just repetition ad nauseum of things said earlier. ^^; First, a caveat: This is idle speculation, not researched opinion. That said, let me first divide the issue of popularity into two: 1) The popularity of the genre amongst gamers. 2) The frequency of releases of games of the genre. 1: How sure are we that fewer gamers today enjoy adventure games than previously (adjusted for population expansion, I imagine)? I think that you'll find that the viable market for games (games in general, that is, not just adventure games) has expanded quite a bit since the "golden age" of the adventure game, bringing in demographics that were probably under-represented during that age. Given that, perhaps, instead of adherents to adventure games dwindling, the market for games in general has started to include more gamers who aren't interested in adventure games. Essentially, the group of adventure gamers may have become more diluted by non-adventure gamers than it was in the "golden age". It seems to me that this would explain the seeming paradox of adventure games being somewhat of a niche market, while a number of adventure games seems nevertheless to come out every year (at least, so it seems to me): The number of adventure gamers is similar (perhaps even higher), but the number of non-adventure gamers has grown much more rapidly, leaving the number of adventure gamers comparatively smaller. 2: If the above is true, then, as has, I believe, been said already, for a big company genres other than adventures may look more appealing. Games of these genres thus tend to be developed - and, for that matter, perhaps much more often by studios with budgets that allow for expensive advertising. It might be worth noting that I seem to recall hearing recently of adventure games becoming popular on one or more portable platforms - the iPhone and/or DS, perhaps, although I'm not sure. I think that I remember hearing of a port or remake of Myst doing pretty well. This might be worth your looking into, I think. Good luck with your paper! ^_^ MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ahem Sorry.
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#21 17 JUL 2009 at 6:07pm
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	Thank you very much for insight. It is invaluable. Cheers Love the signature by the way!
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#22 17 JUL 2009 at 8:52pm
Thaumaturge Journeyman Posts : 999 Joined: 11 MAY 2006 Status : Offline	It's my pleasure, and I hope that it proves useful to you. ^_^ Love the signature by the way! Heheh, thank you. ^_^ MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ahem Sorry.
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#23 18 JUL 2009 at 2:10am
Halcyon Schattenjger Posts : 1652 Joined: 17 NOV 2006 Status : Offline	VirtualPsycho, I find you arrogant and rather insufferably self-righteous. However, you've also been enlightening as to your point of view, so I think you might have addressed some questions we had about your incomplete first post. But for you to take offense at anything I've said is simply ridiculous, defensive, and leads me to believe--in true adventure game fashion--that there is more to your motives than meets the eye. Regardless, I hope you find the truth, and not necessarily what you initially sought to confirm. _________________ Exercise your vision.
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#24 18 JUL 2009 at 2:36am
virtualpsycho Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 28 Joined: 16 JUL 2009 Status : Online	@Halcyon I guess you probably right, i did overreact tremendously and their was no need for in the end. Apologies, its not everyday you learn something bad about yourself. Hope fully I can learn to be a bit more level headed; I suppose its the lack of experience dealing with game development professionals. (Arrogant student right out of college ). "VirtualPsycho, I find you arrogant and rather insufferably self-righteous." - You should here what my friends from college say about me : Cheers for the wake up call, I needed it. I hope this little mishap doesnt stain everyones opinion of me already.
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#25 18 JUL 2009 at 3:04am
Halcyon Schattenjger Posts : 1652 Joined: 17 NOV 2006 Status : Offline	Well, I can see now that you are someone I would probably like a lot. Needling, emotional, manipulative...yes. We challenge around here. Thanks for passing the test. _________________ Exercise your vision.
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