| 1 JUN 2009 at 2:34am |
KaylIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 30
Joined: 5 MAY 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Camaroboy1968 (1 JUN 2009 2:08am)
Originally Posted By Stiler (1 JUN 2009 12:12am)
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (31 MAY 2009 6:33pm)
Import VAT is not payable on:
commercial consignments eg goods purchased over the internet with an intrinsic value not exceeding £18, but this does not include alcohol, tobacco products, perfume or toilet waters
gifts, excluding alcohol, tobacco, perfumes and toilet waters, with a value not exceeding £36
Toilet waters? lol, maybe it's something different over there but why on earth would someone import toilet water of any kind?
[img]http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/300.gif[/img]
Guess you're not a colone guy Stiler.
[img]http://img.tfd.com/wn/46/639C0-eau-de-toilette.gif[/img]
lol, water you guys talking about?
My scythe--I like to keep it next to where my heart used to be.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 3:59am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | If anybody wishes to be a common or garden petty thieff that ishis/her business, and I'm not moralizing here.
But you are - moralizing as well as being extremely judgmental and insulting. And you're entirely missing the point.
A stranger arrives ... gets some stuff off his chest ... paints a clear scene of his exasperation ... receives information that he really wanted ... thanks the nice understanding people ... declares his intention of doing the honest thing and still gets blasted by someone who doesn't know him from Adam, doesn't care enough to actually read the entire thread before blasting him with insults and excuses his tirade with the totally hypocritical and inaccurate - 'I'm not moralizing'.
Nice.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 6:49am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1461
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Camaroboy1968 (1 JUN 2009 2:08am)
Originally Posted By Stiler (1 JUN 2009 12:12am)
Originally Posted By Lucien21 (31 MAY 2009 6:33pm)
Import VAT is not payable on:
commercial consignments eg goods purchased over the internet with an intrinsic value not exceeding £18, but this does not include alcohol, tobacco products, perfume or toilet waters
gifts, excluding alcohol, tobacco, perfumes and toilet waters, with a value not exceeding £36
Toilet waters? lol, maybe it's something different over there but why on earth would someone import toilet water of any kind?
[img]http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/300.gif[/img]
Guess you're not a colone guy Stiler.
[img]http://img.tfd.com/wn/46/639C0-eau-de-toilette.gif[/img]
I have never heard cologne referred to as "toilet waters."
I assumed it meant, literally, some type of water for your toilet.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 6:50am |
| Deleted User | Ok, my total cost for importing SH vs JTR including all the shipping and handling came to about $45, which is probably a bit much, if I see what you guys are prepared to pay.... but imports do always cost a bit more, and I am impatient to play the game. I wonder if I had downloaded a copy, if I would have been permitted to save it to disc and keep it?)
I'm definitely going to try JA store or Interact from now on. Anyway, I hope you manage to get it for cheaper, Steve.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 9:39am |
sTyLnKIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 46
Joined: 2 JUN 2005
Status : Online | I don't think you needed to toss in the whole pirated thing. A simple, where can I buy the game as I live in the UK is all you needed to say........I'm just saying.....
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 2:36pm |
| Deleted User | ~~ Caroline ~~… But you are - moralizing as well as being extremely judgmental and insulting. And you're entirely missing the point.
A stranger arrives ... gets some stuff off his chest ... paints a clear scene of his exasperation ... receives information that he really wanted ... thanks the nice understanding people ... declares his intention of doing the honest thing and still gets blasted by someone who doesn't know him from Adam, doesn't care enough to actually read the entire thread before blasting him with insults and excuses his tirade with the totally hypocritical and inaccurate - 'I'm not moralizing'.
How about YOU sticking to facts Caroline if indeed you are able, rather than emotions and pure personal mud slinging.
For the Goddess of moralizing it is perhaps not strange that you seize upon a controversial accusation and ignore the whole point of my post.
Whether I moralized or not is totally beside the point and of no importance whatsoever. If it makes your trivial feelings better then I renounce that unimportant sentence and I hereby declare to Caroline and the world at large that my phrase “I'm not moralizing here” is inept and even incorrect.” .
Happier Caroline ?
However I DO take exception to YOUR “moralizing, insulting & judgemental” diatribes… and in addition of course you're entirely missing the point.
It is of no importance whether a “new arrival” advocates an illegal statement (and incidentally one which contravenes the principles & rules of this Forum), or an old–timer !
For ANY member of this Forum to suggest blackmailing (directly or otherwise) a company into granting his wishes (whether “justified or not) is against the law. And that is exactly what was advocated by the sentence ----------
SO, unless anyone here can point me to a website where I can purchase the english language version I will be, in my own mind anyway, FORCED to play a pirated copy of the game.
In a very minor way this is similar to the criminal who threatens to do some damage to a shop if shopkeeper refuses or cannot for whatever reason bow to his wishes(which may be reasonable or trivial or selfish).
Defend it if you will.
I do not have the time, energy to refute your mud-slinging tactics, or anybody elses) and so I shall not indulge in any further o\posts on this subject.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 2:48pm |
JKingSchattenjger
Posts : 2349
Joined: 4 MAY 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Blackmail? Granted, it may have been a confrontational cry for help, but how is that in any way blackmail, Len? I may be mistaken, but there was no intent to cause harm in the original message, from what I can tell.
You can't kill someone in a studio.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 6:37pm |
Steve VeaseySpace Cadet
Posts : 115
Joined: 30 MAY 2009
Status : Online | er, I had better 'fess up here..
I'm NOT a newbie..I used to have the monicker plain old Steve V, but I have changed ISP's and that caused all kinds of problems with my stored logins at various sites so I have had to re-register
Len was perfectly entitled to have a go at me because my first posts in this thread were quite immature and petulant, however I don't consider that what I wrote was tantamount to blackmail because Frogwares (or Ubisoft actually) aren't going to push forward their UK release date just because of my ranting.
I was a bit put out by the idea of having to purchase the boxed version online at a premium to those customers who do not live in the apparently irrelevant backwater that is the United Kingdom, but having contacted interact they have assured me that the price on their site ($29.95) will be the price I will pay so an order will be placed shortly with them.
And it has to be said that Frogwares eye-opening explanation of the state of piracy today was a real stunner, I really had no idea that only 10-20 percent of commercial gaming software is actually paid for, it really does make you wonder about the future of video gaming as a viable enterprise in any genre.
And finally, thanks Caroline, you could tell I'm not really a bad guy and you stood up for me heroically!
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 7:28pm |
| Deleted User | I did not intend to post again on this topic --- or actually on any other topic as I'll explain in a separate thread shortly,.
However I must say that your explanations were very decent and as far as I'm concerned ------ CASE CLOSED !
Thnks for the stats youb quoted. "----- only 10-20 percent of commercial gaming software is actually paid for -----".
I was REALLY hocked.
I would have guessed the other way round --- i.e. '10-20% PIRATED, etc,".
It really IS a threat to the future for decent honest Quest-Adventurers and their Developers & Distributors.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 7:38pm |
| Deleted User | Um.. :-[ sorry that I keep getting mixed up with all the Steves, but are you the Steve that I had the Jack the Ripper discussion with? so long, long ago, when this game was announced, waaaay back in the distant past? Sorry for asking again... [smiley=blush.gif]
Anyway, if you are that Steve, I can well understand your frustration at not being able to get hold of the game asap... - gosh, we've been anticipating it for so long, haven't we?
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 8:07pm |
Steve VeaseySpace Cadet
Posts : 115
Joined: 30 MAY 2009
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TheTraveler (1 JUN 2009 7:37pm)
Um.. :-[ sorry that I keep getting mixed up with all the Steves, but are you the Steve that I had the Jack the Ripper discussion with? so long, long ago, when this game was announced, waaaay back in the distant past? Sorry for asking again... [smiley=blush.gif]
Anyway, if you are that Steve, I can well understand your frustration at not being able to get hold of the game asap... - gosh, we've been anticipating it for so long, haven't we?
Yep, thats me Traveller, I'm a bit of a Ripper geek and was convinced that Frogwares would go for a sensationalist and not very historically accurate portrayal of the actual killings. From what I've read just the opposite seems to be the case so I am really, realy keen to see how this plays out!
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 9:19pm |
FrogwaresIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 9
Joined: 17 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Len, don't be so harsh with Steve, we're between Adventure Fans here. You beta test the game, you helped us a great deal into chasing anachronism and difficulties, and we know you're a true supporter to the genre,... as Steve is, buying games, and being really upset that the big plans of the publishers do not respect fans will.
I'm glad Steve rose the piracy issue, because we could discuss things deeper, and see things from different perspective. At least eveyrybody here knows that 90% of the games played are pirated and that there is no other way to fight it than to change completely their format/distribution means/access by players.
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| 1 JUN 2009 at 10:46pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Frogwares (1 JUN 2009 9:19pm)
I'm glad Steve rose the piracy issue, because we could discuss things deeper, and see things from different perspective. At least eveyrybody here knows that 90% of the games played are pirated and that there is no other way to fight it than to change completely their format/distribution means/access by players.
...and just think how much better the games would be if just 10% of those people actually paid for the games. It would double the developers revenue (in simple math) thus enabling them to invest even more in the next project. I say simple math because in reality the developer might even see their revenue tripled or quadrupled because at that point the publisher has recovered all the losses for advertising and material costs. Well, if you're lucky.
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 6:57am |
| Deleted User | As a PC game lover, I must admit that I am shocked and saddened by the statistics. I myself had pirated an ancient game once or twice, as "abandonware" which I truly could not get hold of by any other means, so in my mind, I suppose I thought that people would mainly use the same justifications that I did, when downloading a game like that. However, I didn't realise that the rate of piracy was that high, even with modern games.
I have also campaigned against the kind of DRM that bars one from replaying your games, as I have known that most modern games, even the heavily copy-protected ones, become available for piracy quite soon after release, and in some cases even before the game is released - which actually means that the publisher wasted his money on the DRM, and just restricted the legitimate buyer.
...but the ratio of people who are not prepared to pay for their games is truly shocking.
I would say that that does not spell anything good for PC gaming, but the sad fact of the matter is, that I know for a fact that console games are also being pirated with aplomb... :'(
I wonder if bringing down the price of games would not perhaps help? I mean, if 50% of people were prepared to pay for the game, albeit a lower price, not only might it bring in more revenue, but it would actually also be more fair towards the gamers who do currently pay for their games.
As things stand at the moment, 10% of the market is sponsoring 90% of the market, and games are not cheap. I think that is highly unfair! >
I cannot help feeling, still, that sending more info out there, and educating users as to the true state of things, and what pirating is doing to the market might help... - surely their must be some spark of decency hiding deep down in the average human psyche?
The saddest thing of all, is that the concept of "pirating" seems to be losing it's "dirty word" status... it is maddening that it seems to be becoming more and more the "done thing". I really think some anti-piracy propaganda is in order!
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 4:52pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | A pirated game is still not the same as a lost sale. Certainly with abandonware, if a game isn't sold anywhere it can't equate to a lost sale.
But even with new games, the number of people who'd play a game "for free" is a lot more than the number who'd be willing (or able) to pay for it.
I wonder how the worldwide recession is going to affect piracy. Someone who might have been able to afford three new games a month may have to take a cut in salary (or be on unemployment) and now have to make do with buying one game per month or fewer. Whether they resort to piracy to fill their game addiction or whether they replay their old games or give up games or play games over at their friend's house instead of their own, they no longer have the money to spend and you'd expect it to affect game sales.
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 5:06pm |
| Deleted User | Good question. Has everyone checked out and submitted their situation in the survey?
http://www.justadventure.com/
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 7:43pm |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2589
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (2 JUN 2009 4:52pm)
I wonder how the worldwide recession is going to affect piracy. Someone who might have been able to afford three new games a month may have to take a cut in salary (or be on unemployment) and now have to make do with buying one game per month or fewer. Whether they resort to piracy to fill their game addiction or whether they replay their old games or give up games or play games over at their friend's house instead of their own, they no longer have the money to spend and you'd expect it to affect game sales.
I try to keep things simple. If I can afford a game I want, I'll go for it. If I can't, I'll do without. Pirating is not an option for me.
In these dubious economic times, if it's between buying games and buying food (not to mention paying my mortgage), I'm afraid games will have to lose. Discs aren't very tasty and to the best of my knowledge, they're not accepted as currency.
I do, howver, have many games I truly love that I enjoy replaying, and that's good enough for me if I'm unable afford new ones. How the current economic situation will affect new game sales remains to be seen, I guess...
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 8:42pm |
| Deleted User | “LAST POST" !
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, TRAV --- and very sincerely !
THANX and I agree 200% with every single word you have written in your above (latest) post
P.S. I personally do not consider "pirating" an old unobtainable game as illegal or immoral whatever dry law may say.
It is the pirating of games still on sale whish is terrible and especially those which have only recently been released.
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 9:29pm |
Steve VeaseySpace Cadet
Posts : 115
Joined: 30 MAY 2009
Status : Online | With regard to all of the above and piracy, the attitude isn't really that surprising, although the numbers might be, given that in the last fifteen years or so a whole generation of computer users has grown up with the idea that 'you can get it for free' on the Internet. Obviously the music industry has been the most radically affected by this but many people download new movies as a matter of course or watch live feeds of supposedly pay per view sporting events (to give just two examples).
Its also the problem that a lot of great freeware is produced in the utilities side of things so that there really is no need to purchase an expensive anti virus program or 'internet security suite' which has to be upgraded every year because of the likes of AVG, AVAST, SPYBOT, MALWARES and many others who only request that people make a donation when they download the software..People see that these tremendously useful and useable programs are literaly being given away and say 'Why should I pay EA anything for this years very slightly amended version of Madden?' Or '30 bucks for a play once and forget about it Adventure Game?'
Traveller is probably right that if it was humanly possible for new games to be sold for ten bucks that would almost certainly eat into the pirating culture, but then the people who made those games would have to do it as a hobby, because there isn't any money in it for them...
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 9:51pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (2 JUN 2009 4:52pm)
A pirated game is still not the same as a lost sale.
Well, if you are talking about a 1 to 1 relationship, I would agree. However, your argument is the same that keeps coming up whenever the percentage of pirated copies comes up, leaving the impression you and all the other people that bring up this argument think ALL pirated games are not lost sales.
I know plenty of people who think actually buying a game/movie/music CD is STUPID and a waste of money. Seriously. I told people about game X, movie X, CD X that I bought and they act like I'm an idiot for actually paying for it.
Are these people that couldn't afford it? Nope. Trust me, they make plenty and spend it frivolously on things that can't be pirated - like going out to eat at fancy restaurants, buying higher end cars, etc. not to mention having no problem spending $100's on Rock Band and/or Guitar Hero along with all the accessories. Good thing for those developers that you can't pirate the microphones/guitars/and drums.
While 100% of pirated games might NOT be a lost sale, a rather significant portion is. As I said before, if just 10% of those pirating actually bought the games, developers would be much better off while being able to invest and crank out better games. Keep your eyes open - Lighthouse was most likely just the 1st of many publishers that are about to take a nose-dive.
In regards to Traveler's (I think) post about doing some public service announcements...
I'm on a developers forum where one of the indies got on a pirated site that was hosting his game and tried to 'nicely' explain how he was just a one-man show and that pirating his game was hurting him significantly. Forum members ridiculed and mocked him and the site owner booted him. Nice huh?
You aren't going to convince anyone to stop. When you see FBI warnings with penalties of 10's of thousands of dollars at the beginnings of DVDs and people ignore it, how much do you think trying to explain how things are hurting are going to help? The reality is that it's an ugly world and the vast majority of people only care about themselves. Sad, but true.
All is not lost though. I know on my end I'm cooking up some ways to work with the reality of the situation.
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 9:59pm |
karlaAdministrator
Posts : 2589
Joined: 27 JUL 2003
Location: US, Close to the Edge
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (2 JUN 2009 9:51pm)
All is not lost though. I know on my end I'm cooking up some ways to work with the reality of the situation.
Go get 'em, Ivinia!! [smiley=thumbs.gif]
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| 2 JUN 2009 at 10:25pm |
CBSection31Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 65
Joined: 10 MAY 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (2 JUN 2009 9:51pm)
I'm on a developers forum where one of the indies got on a pirated site that was hosting his game and tried to 'nicely' explain how he was just a one-man show and that pirating his game was hurting him significantly. Forum members ridiculed and mocked him and the site owner booted him. Nice huh?
That sounds a lot like the experience I had when my first game was pirated! I've since learned to take it as a badge of honor, by considering that it meant my game was worth pirating.
In any case, regardless of one's stance as to whether pirating is morally right or wrong, there is no denying that it DOES hurt sales, especially for indies like me. That's simply a fact, not an opinion.
Despite this, though, I - the idiot that I am - will never include any significant copy protection on any of my games. All it does is annoy and drive away legitimate customers while never deterring pirates.
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| 3 JUN 2009 at 2:28am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (2 JUN 2009 9:51pm)
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (2 JUN 2009 4:52pm)
A pirated game is still not the same as a lost sale.
Well, if you are talking about a 1 to 1 relationship, I would agree. However, your argument is the same that keeps coming up whenever the percentage of pirated copies comes up, leaving the impression you and all the other people that bring up this argument think ALL pirated games are not lost sales.
I really have no idea where you got that impression and suspect you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. But if I had to guess at how many habitual warez downloaders would buy a game they couldn't get for free, I'd say it would have to be a very special game for most warez downloaders to be induced to actually spend money on it. Unless they are hardcore adventure gamers and don't care for other genres, they'd spend their money on games that would last them longer.
I know plenty of people who think actually buying a game/movie/music CD is STUPID and a waste of money. Seriously. I told people about game X, movie X, CD X that I bought and they act like I'm an idiot for actually paying for it.
I don't know anyone like that. I don't know many gamers offline, but the ones I know buy their games, though they aren't big gamers and probably buy less than 4 a year -- unless they're buying games for their kids. The people I know who see movies usually rent them or see them in the theatre unless they're buying them as gifts. Music is another matter, possibly because it takes so much less time to download an mp3 than it does to download a movie or game, or possibly because downloading music has been around longer than downloading movies and requires less bandwidth, and computer games just aren't that popular among people I know.
Are these people that couldn't afford it?
What percentage of people who illegally download games are like your friends though? As opposed to the percentage that can't afford to buy every game they want to play? How many live in countries where the games aren't distributed? Do you have those numbers? At most you might be able to get the IP numbers of downloaders (assuming they're not using a proxy) and find out what country they're from. You might find out how many are on college campuses. But you won't see their financial situations from an IP number.
While 100% of pirated games might NOT be a lost sale, a rather significant portion is. As I said before, if just 10% of those pirating actually bought the games, developers would be much better off while being able to invest and crank out better games.
Would 10% of warez downloaders buy the games if they couldn't pirate them? Suddenly something that used to be free costs money. Do 10% of the downloaders still want it enough to pay for it? I honestly don't think they would. Even those who could afford to buy it would spend large amounts of time looking for a way to get the game for free. Buying it would be equivalent to admitting defeat.
Make no mistake, I'm not advocating playing games without buying them. I'm just questioning how many illegal downloads would become actual sales if the illegal downloads weren't available.
All is not lost though. I know on my end I'm cooking up some ways to work with the reality of the situation.
You mean like watermarking your game so you can see who distributed it?
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| 3 JUN 2009 at 10:34pm |
SAMSpace Cadet
Posts : 148
Joined: 13 FEB 2004
Status : Online |
Since the concept of software is a new technology, something that only one of a product is needed to be manufactured, and mulpitple copies are made for very little expense AND easily duplicated...
vs
Hammers which must be fully manufactured from to reproduce copies, thus the cost is the same for each copy of a hammer produced
and impractical for someone to make a copy of at home.
It is much cheaper for them to go and buy one than copy it...
The copy protection schemes haven't slowed the pirates, but made
the games more difficult to run for the legitimate owner.
So instead of trying to make the game protection more difficult for the
paying customers, devise a system
that makes it cheaper to just go and
buy the game
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